Expansion of the Women's Competition

[Perth Red]

The existing rusted on fanbase of the NRL clubs doesn't make up the core audience that will be interested in the NRLW. Sure there's overlap, but only a minority will go out of their way to support the NRLW, and pay for the right to do so.

Nobody is saying create a competition of totally new teams out of thin air, however if it was marketed and supported properly there's no reason that couldn't work, see early BBL before the CA stuffed it up. Everybody has to start somewhere you know.

Female participation was going up significantly in the AFL pre-AFLW simply because the grassroots were targeting growth in female participation, i.e. you don't need a pro comp to simply grow female interest in the sport, and it's probably a very expensive way to do it.
Also, as far as I have seen there's little evidence that participation has a causal link to growth in support for the professional game. If it was that simple soccer would be by far the largest sport in the Anglosphere, and outside of the UK that simply isn't the case.

Finally, if the NRLW effectively only exists to attract new sponsors it's a waste of time as new sponsors alone won't make it sustainable independent of the NRL. There's also no reason why those same sponsors wouldn't be interested in an NRLW that isn't married to the NRL clubs.

why has the experience in afl been so different? Some of their games have been getting 10-20k to them Off the back of being branded same as mens team and attracting the existing fanbase.

 

[Jamberoo]

The only person talking about a dozen is you.

Starting with a dozen is unrealistic in any scenario, starting with a smaller number like six and building from there is doable though.

Clubs folding is part of the natural process of the evolution of a competition, especially a new one. It's inevitable, and if people started accepting that the NRL would be better off.


Who's supporting now?!

Be honest, on average less than a thousand people are showing up early for the kick off of NRLW games, and even then a good portion of them probably aren't actually there early specifically to support the NRLW. On average it has to be less than 1% of the crowd that have actually paid the price of admission specifically to watch the NRLW.

If the NRLW is ever going to be sustainable in it's own right then it needs to build it's own fan base of people willing to spend money specifically on it, and that doesn't describe the vast majority of NRL club's fans. Sure when they're effectively given it for free some will show up (even then not many the evidence suggests), but as soon as the the NRLW moves to it's own gamedays interest will tank. That means that the NRLW's target audience is, or rather should be, a slightly different audience to that of the NRL's.

If you built a comp from scratch and targeted clubs with proven interest, that justify participation in a higher competition with more exposure but aren't part of the NRL's plans, mixed with some new clubs, then you could have the beginnings of a solid national competition.
Take the Bears, it's absolutely crazy that they weren't pursued to be part of the NRLW. That would have given the Bears and their fans the pro-team and national exposure that they have been begging for, and being connected to the Bears history and the 5ish thousand (maybe more) fans showing up every second week at North Sydney Oval would have given the NRLW a bunch of instant credibility.

5K or more to watch NRLW @ North Sydney? Righto. Pie in the Sky stuff. NRLW won;t be profitable, why would the Bears want to be a part of that? The whole point of the NRLW is to get more girls interested in NRL and its clubs. The NRL and its clubs need to fund it!!!

 

[Perth Red]

NSW prop Mille Boyle claims attempts to equalise the NRLW are unfair to her all-conquering Brisbane side, arguing head office would never attempt to split up Melbourne's men.

Friday night's women's State of Origin is being played in the backdrop of drama, with players split on how the new-look competition should be developed.

In an attempt to even out the NRLW for new franchises Newcastle, Gold Coast and Parramatta, the NRL has offered the top 24 players central contracts with four to go to each of the six clubs.


Several players from founding clubs the Sydney Roosters and St George Illawarra have agreed to shift clubs in recent weeks, weakening their rosters.

NRLW talent equalisation unfair: Broncos

NSW prop Millie Boyle claims the NRL's bid to ask marquee players to move to new women's clubs is unfair for her all-conquering Brisbane side.

www.perthnow.com.au

 

[The Great Dane]

why has the experience in afl been so different? Some of their games have been getting 10-20k to them Off the back of being branded same as mens team and attracting the existing fanbase.

Because they initially didn't charge for entry to games and still run at a significant loss to get people into the grandstand. Charge full price for memberships and tickets and it'd probably roughly half their attendance depending on the club.

Women's sport also has massive political and media good will behind it, which is artificially increasing interest for the moment, but that won't last forever.

 

[The Great Dane]

5K or more to watch NRLW @ North Sydney? Righto. Pie in the Sky stuff. NRLW won;t be profitable, why would the Bears want to be a part of that? The whole point of the NRLW is to get more girls interested in NRL and its clubs. The NRL and its clubs need to fund it!!!

The only way the NRLW will ever be profitable independent of the NRL is if it doesn't marry it's self to the NRL.
If it's married to the Telstra Premiership and the clubs then it'll always exist exclusively as a token gesture and side attraction; there to show support for women in theory and to keep political entities at bay, but not to exist as an actual opportunity to build products that could hypothetically become competition to the NRL and/or clubs, and that's not only underselling the potential of women's sport, but it's underselling RL as well.

The point of the NRLW isn't/shouldn't be to get more girls interested in the NRL and it's clubs (BTW that attitude is basically the core reason why the sport is so f**ked right now), it should be to get them interested in Rugby League. There is a subtle, yet highly significant, difference.

Finally, you know small minded morons of my generation said that Melbourne was 'pie in the sky' as well, then we actually tried it instead of poo-pooing any entrepreneurial idea out of a fear of risk, and look at them now.
They even used the same tired, stupid, arguments that you are repackaging and reusing right now.

 

[Jamberoo]

Because they initially didn't charge for entry to games and still run at a significant loss to get people into the grandstand. Charge full price for memberships and tickets and it'd probably roughly half their attendance depending on the club.

Women's sport also has massive political and media good will behind it, which is artificially increasing interest for the moment, but that won't last forever.

Which is why the NRL, which is already miles behind soccer, cricket and AFL regarding their women’s league, needs to move very quickly.
NRL has possibly already missed the boat here.

 

[Jamberoo]

The only way the NRLW will ever be profitable independent of the NRL is if it doesn't marry it's self to the NRL.
If it's married to the Telstra Premiership and the clubs then it'll always exist exclusively as a token gesture and side attraction; there to show support for women in theory and to keep political entities at bay, but not to exist as an actual opportunity to build products that could hypothetically become competition to the NRL and/or clubs, and that's not only underselling the potential of women's sport, but it's underselling RL as well.

The point of the NRLW isn't/shouldn't be to get more girls interested in the NRL and it's clubs (BTW that attitude is basically the core reason why the sport is so f**ked right now), it should be to get them interested in Rugby League. There is a subtle, yet highly significant, difference.

Finally, you know small minded morons of my generation said that Melbourne was 'pie in the sky' as well, then we actually tried it instead of poo-pooing any entrepreneurial idea out of a fear of risk, and look at them now.
They even used the same tired, stupid, arguments that you are repackaging and reusing right now.

If not the NRL, do you suggest funds it? If not the supporters of NRL clubs, then who watches it? Without the infrastructure of NRL clubs, how do you train elite sports teams?
It would be a disaster, which is why no sport here has attempted something like this.

 

[siv]

Agreed, but not all teams within 15km of each other, again souths, easts, cronulla and kogarah are all in the same area of south east/CBD sydney
Expanding to 4-5 teams in sydney is ok
But not all there next to each other, thats currently the issue in NRL now with the Sydney clubs, too many in that area.
I suppose Dragons are at Wollongong half the time now, even so, 3 teams in that southern pocket is ludicrous, you'd have to think one team at bankwest stadium either as parra, wests or dogs, maybe penrith if theres enough talent in far central west/country areas, as well as penriths catchment for women, then go north to Newcastle/north coast,
Once all thats sorted to cover north and west NSW then expand back south/east sydney if needed, regarding souths or cronulla

Easts are a Central Coast team
St Merge are a Illawarra team

Plenty of room for Souths & Cronulla

With Wests-Tigers in Campbelltown

 

[Jamberoo]

The only way the NRLW will ever be profitable independent of the NRL is if it doesn't marry it's self to the NRL.
If it's married to the Telstra Premiership and the clubs then it'll always exist exclusively as a token gesture and side attraction; there to show support for women in theory and to keep political entities at bay, but not to exist as an actual opportunity to build products that could hypothetically become competition to the NRL and/or clubs, and that's not only underselling the potential of women's sport, but it's underselling RL as well.

The point of the NRLW isn't/shouldn't be to get more girls interested in the NRL and it's clubs (BTW that attitude is basically the core reason why the sport is so f**ked right now), it should be to get them interested in Rugby League. There is a subtle, yet highly significant, difference.

Finally, you know small minded morons of my generation said that Melbourne was 'pie in the sky' as well, then we actually tried it instead of poo-pooing any entrepreneurial idea out of a fear of risk, and look at them now.
They even used the same tired, stupid, arguments that you are repackaging and reusing right now.

By what measure has the Storm been a huge success? By Sydney RL standards, yes, but does that say more about Sydney or Melbourne?
- onfield, yes, but none of the players come from Victoria.
- crowds well below the smallest AFL clubs
- insignificant ratings
- no homegrown NRL player ever. There are four in 23 years who grew up here but all had a RL family background (e.g. Ieremia from Samoa)
- the number of RL clubs in Melbourne has not even doubled in 23 years - was nine, now 17.
It might look like a success from Sydney, but down here it barely makes a ripple. SOO gets something of a buzz when in town but that would happen regardless of Melbourne having a club.
If the NRL spent one tenth of the resources into growing the game at grass roots level here that AFL puts into Sydney, then the club would be twice as big as it is, or even bigger given their run of success. The only promotion to grow crowds in the past 15 years was the last game in 2010 when we lost all points they had a free ticket promotion to thank the fans for support. There was a buzz around that game. The game is too expensive. Tickets should be priced cheaper than AFL. Kids should be free - even for finals. They seem intent on remaining a niche. No one from Storm contacted me when I did not renew my membership in 2019 (working weekends, only got to one game in 2018 - the GF). There is nothing on offer for sports fans here to go to a game or for kids to try RL. They are preaching to the converted (NSW/Qld/NZ/UK expats).
After the premiership in 1999, I really thought Storm would become a huge thing here. I remember going to the first game in 2000, at the MCG v Dragons thinking that RL had made it, there will be 50k here as the AFL season had not yet started. Crowd was 23k. Disappointing but not terrible. They tried the next year playing at Docklands, but in oval mode not in rectangular mode, so the atmosphere was not good. Olympic Park was a dump they should have at least the first game each year at Docklands in rectangular mode before the AFL season. Made it free entry. Kept trying.
The NRL and Melbourne Storm should hang their head in shame over the lack of growth here compared what was possible (see Swans & Lions). They are a brilliant team to watch. AAMI should be packed every week. Are they a success? Not by Melbourne standards. Hell, North Melbourne Kangaroos have 45k members and average home crowds of 25k and they are seen to be doing so badly that they should be relocated to Tasmania.
So to me Melbourne Storm barely get a pass mark.
Golden opportunity missed.

P.s. the above is why I am against new teams in SA or WA. The simple fact is that the NRL will not invest enough resources for either to be a true success. You might get OK crowds because people are parochial, but it will take the hundreds of millions that the AFL invests in NSW and Qld to actually become part of the city’s sporting culture and get kids playing. If they have missed that in Melbourne after 23 years of phenomenal success in a city of 5 million, what hope do they have in Adelaide or Perth?

Rant over. Sorry I did ramble on a bit and forgot what I was actually responding to or what we are actually discussing.

 

[mongoose]

I am assuming the Storm's presence adds a significant amount to the broadcast rights though. It would be good to know what the state by state split is for Fox/Kayo ratings to see how many people in Vic are tuning in to watch NRL. I doubt the NRL would get anywhere close to what the AFL gets without a Melbourne presence though.

 

[Perth Red]

By what measure has the Storm been a huge success? By Sydney RL standards, yes, but does that say more about Sydney or Melbourne?
- onfield, yes, but none of the players come from Victoria.
- crowds well below the smallest AFL clubs
- insignificant ratings
- no homegrown NRL player ever. There are four in 23 years who grew up here but all had a RL family background (e.g. Ieremia from Samoa)
- the number of RL clubs in Melbourne has not even doubled in 23 years - was nine, now 17.
It might look like a success from Sydney, but down here it barely makes a ripple. SOO gets something of a buzz when in town but that would happen regardless of Melbourne having a club.
If the NRL spent one tenth of the resources into growing the game at grass roots level here that AFL puts into Sydney, then the club would be twice as big as it is, or even bigger given their run of success. The only promotion to grow crowds in the past 15 years was the last game in 2010 when we lost all points they had a free ticket promotion to thank the fans for support. There was a buzz around that game. The game is too expensive. Tickets should be priced cheaper than AFL. Kids should be free - even for finals. They seem intent on remaining a niche. No one from Storm contacted me when I did not renew my membership in 2019 (working weekends, only got to one game in 2018 - the GF). There is nothing on offer for sports fans here to go to a game or for kids to try RL. They are preaching to the converted (NSW/Qld/NZ/UK expats).
After the premiership in 1999, I really thought Storm would become a huge thing here. I remember going to the first game in 2000, at the MCG v Dragons thinking that RL had made it, there will be 50k here as the AFL season had not yet started. Crowd was 23k. Disappointing but not terrible. They tried the next year playing at Docklands, but in oval mode not in rectangular mode, so the atmosphere was not good. Olympic Park was a dump they should have at least the first game each year at Docklands in rectangular mode before the AFL season. Made it free entry. Kept trying.
The NRL and Melbourne Storm should hang their head in shame over the lack of growth here compared what was possible (see Swans & Lions). They are a brilliant team to watch. AAMI should be packed every week. Are they a success? Not by Melbourne standards. Hell, North Melbourne Kangaroos have 45k members and average home crowds of 25k and they are seen to be doing so badly that they should be relocated to Tasmania.
So to me Melbourne Storm barely get a pass mark.
Golden opportunity missed.

P.s. the above is why I am against new teams in SA or WA. The simple fact is that the NRL will not invest enough resources for either to be a true success. You might get OK crowds because people are parochial, but it will take the hundreds of millions that the AFL invests in NSW and Qld to actually become part of the city’s sporting culture and get kids playing. If they have missed that in Melbourne after 23 years of phenomenal success in a city of 5 million, what hope do they have in Adelaide or Perth?

Rant over. Sorry I did ramble on a bit and forgot what I was actually responding to or what we are actually discussing.

By rugby league standards! They are by far the biggest, most sustained and most successful professional expansion club in the world of rugby league, past or present. You shouldnt mix up the lack of growth in grass roots growth and rl general interest with the success of the Storm, nrl are responsible for the former and as we know they are sht at their jobs. That doesn’t take away from the huge success that the melbourne Storm have become. One of the biggest active fanbases in the world, financially viable, successful on the field. Pretty much all you can ask of a professional sports club.

 

[The Great Dane]

Which is why the NRL, which is already miles behind soccer, cricket and AFL regarding their women’s league, needs to move very quickly.
NRL has possibly already missed the boat here.

That's not how free market capitalism works.

If not the NRL, do you suggest funds it?

What a lame strawman.

I never said the NRL shouldn't fund it, only that it shouldn't be married to the NRL competition (i.e. Telsta Premiership) and NRL clubs.

In an ideal world it'd be an independent body under the jurisdiction of the ARLC, that is initially propped up by the NRL until it's broadcast rights and fanbase are big enough to support it's self independently. Kind of like what the WNBA is to the NBA, though it's not a perfect analogy.

If not the supporters of NRL clubs, then who watches it?

Who supports any new club or expansion team?

People that are interested in RL and are interested in supporting the new club. It's not really any different than any other new business to be honest.

I mean honestly this has to be close to the most dishonest and moronic BS I've ever read on here, which is quite impressive actually.

Without the infrastructure of NRL clubs, how do you train elite sports teams?

Same way any club gets facilities; they build their own or rent somebody else's.

You know you don't need to start out with state of the art COEs, in fact starting small and aiming to build big is normally the best policy.

It would be a disaster, which is why no sport here has attempted something like this.

They haven't attempted anything like this because most of them are ruled by incompetence, and the AFL are too arrogant to think that anything other than the AFL clubs could be of interest to anybody.

There's also defiantly a fear of new competition in the market as well. Which is why you see most of the clubs in both the AFL and NRL so resistant to expansion, or properly supporting the lower tiers, most of the time as well.

 

[flippikat]

.

P.s. the above is why I am against new teams in SA or WA. The simple fact is that the NRL will not invest enough resources for either to be a true success. You might get OK crowds because people are parochial, but it will take the hundreds of millions that the AFL invests in NSW and Qld to actually become part of the city’s sporting culture and get kids playing. If they have missed that in Melbourne after 23 years of phenomenal success in a city of 5 million, what hope do they have in Adelaide or Perth?

You miss a crucial difference between Melbourne & Perth.

Perth (specifically WA) has been a consistent power in the "affiliated states" championship, and NRLWA has worked hard to foster the grassroots over there during their "NRL wilderness" phase they're currently in - as @Perth Red would attest.

Add to that the new late-night timeslot Perth gives the game, and the fact that Perth isn't super-saturated with AFL clubs, and there's a stark difference between the two.

 

[Perth Red]

We are certainly starting from a much stronger base here in the West but Jamboree isnt wrong in that if you REALLY want to get lots of people playing the game, talkign about the game and attenbdign the game thenyou have to have a comprehensive growth stratgey and investment to go with it. I dont know many businesses that can grow into new marlets without those two things! Pre-covid AFL had over 150 development officers in NSW. NRL wouldnt have a third of that in Vic, WA and SA put together!

 

[Jamberoo]

We are certainly starting from a much stronger base here in the West but Jamboree isnt wrong in that if you REALLY want to get lots of people playing the game, talkign about the game and attenbdign the game thenyou have to have a comprehensive growth stratgey and investment to go with it. I dont know many businesses that can grow into new marlets without those two things! Pre-covid AFL had over 150 development officers in NSW. NRL wouldnt have a third of that in Vic, WA and SA put together!

I dint reckon they would have more than half a dozen. There is no support whatsoever.

 

[Jamberoo]

That's not how free market capitalism works.

What a lame strawman.

I never said the NRL shouldn't fund it, only that it shouldn't be married to the NRL competition (i.e. Telsta Premiership) and NRL clubs.

In an ideal world it'd be an independent body under the jurisdiction of the ARLC, that is initially propped up by the NRL until it's broadcast rights and fanbase are big enough to support it's self independently. Kind of like what the WNBA is to the NBA, though it's not a perfect analogy.

Who supports any new club or expansion team?

People that are interested in RL and are interested in supporting the new club. It's not really any different than any other new business to be honest.

I mean honestly this has to be close to the most dishonest and moronic BS I've ever read on here, which is quite impressive actually.

Same way any club gets facilities; they build their own or rent somebody else's.

You know you don't need to start out with state of the art COEs, in fact starting small and aiming to build big is normally the best policy.

They haven't attempted anything like this because most of them are ruled by incompetence, and the AFL are too arrogant to think that anything other than the AFL clubs could be of interest to anybody.

There's also defiantly a fear of new competition in the market as well. Which is why you see most of the clubs in both the AFL and NRL so resistant to expansion, or properly supporting the lower tiers, most of the time as well.

You are dreaming my friend. So you make up a new club. Liverpool ladies. Do you really think that will gain more support than a Bulldogs team (for example). You would have a comp full of white elephants that would collapse after year one. I am nit sure that you understand how many staff and volunteers are required to run a club, especially one travelling around the country. Committee, coaches, physics, trainers, ,etc, etc. for 12 teams you would need to find hundred of people. The best of whom will already be involved with out her clubs. It would be a logistical nightmare.
And it will a big help to start out with state of the art facilities. Women’s sports are competing for many of the same athletes. Many AFLW players are also professional netball, cricket and even Rugby Sevens and RL players. If you have a tin shed you are not going to attract players.

It hasn’t been attempted because It won’t work.

 

[Perth Red]

Broncos
Titans
Dragons
Roosters
Knights
Eels

Confirmed as the 6 clubs that will make up 2021 season. Hopefully Warriors are back next year with another club. Maybe Panthers or Sharks?

"In 2021 the NRLW games will be played as double-headers to the men's NRL regular season and finals series matches,and teams will be trying to topple the reigning champions Broncos, who have won three premierships in three seasons.
Newcastle, Parramatta and Gold Coast will enter the NRLW in 2021 with a five-round and finals series scheduled to begin in August and run in line with the men's NRL Telstra Premiership from round 23."

Expansion for NRLW clubs

Three new NRLW clubs will join St George Illawarra and the other inaugural teams Brisbane and the Sydney...

www.theleader.com.au

 

[The Great Dane]

You are dreaming my friend. So you make up a new club. Liverpool ladies. Do you really think that will gain more support than a Bulldogs team (for example). You would have a comp full of white elephants that would collapse after year one. I am nit sure that you understand how many staff and volunteers are required to run a club, especially one travelling around the country. Committee, coaches, physics, trainers, ,etc, etc. for 12 teams you would need to find hundred of people. The best of whom will already be involved with out her clubs. It would be a logistical nightmare.
And it will a big help to start out with state of the art facilities. Women’s sports are competing for many of the same athletes. Many AFLW players are also professional netball, cricket and even Rugby Sevens and RL players. If you have a tin shed you are not going to attract players.

It hasn’t been attempted because It won’t work.

People like you are a cancer on this sport.

 

[Jamberoo]

People like you are a cancer on this sport.

Charming.
We can all dream, but anyone who has been involved in sporting clubs would know that you speak from a place of ignorance. When are you releasing your book ‘101 ways to bankrupt rugby league’?

 

[MugaB]

Charming.
We can all dream, but anyone who has been involved in sporting clubs would know that you speak from a place of ignorance. When are you releasing your book ‘101 ways to bankrupt rugby league’?

I don't mind a mascot being renamed, like the Canberra Raiders, becoming Canberra Valkyeries for NRLW, things like that, but a completely different team, that has no affiliation to the current canberra club seems like a silly way to go. I agree with jamberoo, there's way too much cost plus personnel, and you want to be able to keep the same pathway open regardless of gender for that team.