Expansion teams in the second teir as a pathway to NRL

[Perth Red]

If the NRL is serious about expecting NRL expansion clubs to cut their teeth or come out of the second tier comps who will be joining when, or who is already in there that might be looking ofr an expansion spot?

WC Pirates have stated they intend to join NSW cup next year. Of the other expansion hopefuls will any of them also be joining, Wellington? Adelaide? CC? How about in Queensland comp? PNG are already in there, SW corridor are in there with Jets, CQ as well. will Bombers or Brothers put in a team? Im guessing Redcliffe would be the only other side with aspirations?

Is it fair to expect these organisations to spend millions over the next three years running sides in these comps if expansion isnt happening?

 

[adamkungl]

Is it fair to expect these organisations to spend millions over the next three years running sides in these comps if expansion isnt happening?

On the the other hand, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to show they can run a 2nd tier club before being given an NRL licence.

 

[adamkungl]

I'd like to see Perth in NSW Cup

My bigger pipe-dream is for NZ to withdraw from NSW Cup and use the players coming through their 2nd div and junior reps to form a 6-8 team NZ comp of a similar standard to NSW Cup, with a view to Samoa and Tonga joining

 

[Walter sobchak]

I'd like to see Perth in NSW Cup

My bigger pipe-dream is for NZ to withdraw from NSW Cup and use the players coming through their 2nd div and junior reps to form a 6-8 team NZ comp of a similar standard to NSW Cup, with a view to Samoa and Tonga joining

Now that is a pipe dream mate. There’s hardly any money knocking about in NZRL for a semi-professional league never mind in Tonga and Samoa.

Isn’t there supposed to be a revamped Auckland region league??

 

[Walter sobchak]

If the NRL is serious about expecting NRL expansion clubs to cut their teeth or come out of the second tier comps who will be joining when, or who is already in there that might be looking ofr an expansion spot?

WC Pirates have stated they intend to join NSW cup next year. Of the other expansion hopefuls will any of them also be joining, Wellington? Adelaide? CC? How about in Queensland comp? PNG are already in there, SW corridor are in there with Jets, CQ as well. will Bombers or Brothers put in a team? Im guessing Redcliffe would be the only other side with aspirations?

Is it fair to expect these organisations to spend millions over the next three years running sides in these comps if expansion isnt happening?

In an ideal situation Perth should have entered the NSW cup along with their junior teams a long time ago with the view of them joining the NRL within a timeframe of about 2-3 years.

 

[Diesel]

Whatever happened to Christchurch joining the NSWRL?

Edit: thought it may have been pre-2011 earthquake but was 2015 https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/10...-nrl-team-in-new-zealand-20150129-1315t5.html

 

[The Great Dane]

So long as there is a clear route into the NRL there's absolutely nothing wrong with making prospective NRL bids spend time in the lower tiers before being eligible to enter the NRL, however if there's no clear route into the NRL then it's a stupid idea cause not only will it lead to a bunch of clubs wasting a ton of money in limbo but it'll turn away 90% of potential bids and investors.

That clear route into the NRL could take many different shapes, the most common form of it in other comps is P&R, though I don't think that's a good idea for the NRL at the moment, something like a trial period of sorts could work better for the NRL.

So yeah in principal there's nothing wrong with it as long as it's done well, however if the NRL is like 'spend some time in the NSW/QLD cup and maybe we'll consider you for the NRL sometime down the line' then it'll be a disaster as most potential investors will tell them to go f**k themselves instead of spending millions with no promise or even a chance at a spot in the NRL and move onto other investment opportunities.

 

[adamkungl]

Now that is a pipe dream mate. There’s hardly any money knocking about in NZRL for a semi-professional league never mind in Tonga and Samoa.

Isn’t there supposed to be a revamped Auckland region league??

In pipe-dream-land, the NRL funds the NZRL to the same tune that NSWRL and QRL get funded.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that NZ provides as strong a pathway to the NRL as NSW and QLD do, yet they receive nothing in return.
As you said, the NZRL is skint. The NRL takes but gives nothing back.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

In pipe-dream-land, the NRL funds the NZRL to the same tune that NSWRL and QRL get funded.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that NZ provides as strong a pathway to the NRL as NSW and QLD do, yet they receive nothing in return.
As you said, the NZRL is skint. The NRL takes but gives nothing back.

I dont think its unreasonable for the NZRL to become a subsidiary of the ARLC...

If it means the ARLC paying annual grant the NZ and potentially even paying rep payments to NZ players, i think it would be a great deal for NZRL

And if NSWRL and QRL are looking for representatives on the ARLC, it would be reasonable for NZRL to ask for the same

 

[adamkungl]

I dont think its unreasonable for the NZRL to become a subsidiary of the ARLC...

If it means the ARLC paying annual grant the NZ and potentially even paying rep payments to NZ players, i think it would be a great deal for NZRL

And if NSWRL and QRL are looking for representatives on the ARLC, it would be reasonable for NZRL to ask for the same

I don't know if I'd go as far as the NZRL losing their independence entirely but I do think national bodies who provide NRL players should receive some funding deal.

 

[The Great Dane]

I don't know if I'd go as far as the NZRL losing their independence entirely but I do think national bodies who provide NRL players should receive some funding deal.

Then it's not workable cause the ARLC would be expected to basically just give another body that they aren't affiliated with a huge paycheck without any control over how it is spent... Which is madness.

Also lets be honest here, it's not like the NZRL are developing many of the Kiwis that find their way into the NRL... Unless they are coming from the Warriors system (which is funded by the NRL anyway) it's not like the NRL clubs are recruiting ready made first grade players, most of the time they're recruiting young local RL, RU, and touch players that they then develop into NRL players. Take away NRL and NRL clubs development systems and three quarters of the current Kiwi professional players wouldn't have been developed at all.

Also the players aren't slaves, the NZRL doesn't own them, just like the NRL doesn't own all the Australian players that go all over the world to play, they are employees (some of them aren't even that), and once their contracts are up with the NZRL they have no obligation to the NZRL just like you have no obligation to your first boss and the organisations that trained you.

 

[Last Week]

I don't know if I'd go as far as the NZRL losing their independence entirely but I do think national bodies who provide NRL players should receive some funding deal.

Should that work vice versa? Should the RFL be paying the ARLC and NZRL also?

 

[Last Week]

I remember reading something a while ago about a deal John Grant made with the NZRL. If memory serves, the ARLC pay the NZRL a fee and also the player payments for test matches against Australia. Something about the game being held in Australia.

I'm sure someone else will recall something.

 

[adamkungl]

Then it's not workable cause the ARLC would be expected to basically just give another body that they aren't affiliated with a huge paycheck without any control over how it is spent... Which is madness.

Nonsense point. All I said was the the NRL shouldn't own the NZRL. They can enter a partnership, they can form a deal with specified outcomes for funding, etc.

Also lets be honest here, it's not like the NZRL are developing many of the Kiwis that find their way into the NRL... Unless they are coming from the Warriors system (which is funded by the NRL anyway) it's not like the NRL clubs are recruiting ready made first grade players, most of the time they're recruiting young local RL, RU, and touch players that they then develop into NRL players. Take away NRL and NRL clubs development systems and three quarters of the current Kiwi professional players wouldn't have been developed at all.

Without the NRL's sheer financial weight three quarters of the current Kiwi professional players would be enough to play competition of reasonably high level in New Zealand.
Who runs the local RL comps that they get pulled out of? Auckland gets some kickback via the Warriors, same as any Australian club, but the NZRL run rest-of-NZ gets nothing.

Also the players aren't slaves, the NZRL doesn't own them, just like the NRL doesn't own all the Australian players that go all over the world to play, they are employees (some of them aren't even that), and once their contracts are up with the NZRL they have no obligation to the NZRL just like you have no obligation to your first boss and the organisations that trained you.

You bring this point up often and as usual it has no relevance to anything being discussed. The players have no obligation to either organisation, but co-dependent Rugby League organisations have an obligation to each other and to the sport.

The NRL should enter a funding agreement with NZ not because they are required to but because it would be beneficial to the sport of Rugby League in both countries. A partially NRL funded strong NZ-wide competition would increase the number of Kiwis playing in the NRL while strengthening the game in NZ by giving players and fans weekly exposure to professional quality football.

 

[The Great Dane]

Nonsense point. All I said was the the NRL shouldn't own the NZRL. They can enter a partnership, they can form a deal with specified outcomes for funding, etc.

They still wouldn't be directly accountable to the ARLC, and there'd still be room for f**kery, which is the problem.

They'd also very quickly become reliant on the paycheck from the NRL which would be a bad thing as well, especially when considering they are already so reliant on the NRL (and to a lesser extent the RFL) for their survival.

Without the NRL's sheer financial weight three quarters of the current Kiwi professional players would be enough to play competition of reasonably high level in New Zealand.

Absolute BS.

Without the NRL three quarters of the current Kiwi professional players would be playing RU...

Who runs the local RL comps that they get pulled out of? Auckland gets some kickback via the Warriors, same as any Australian club, but the NZRL run rest-of-NZ gets nothing.

Most of Kiwi RL players that are actually RL players before being scouted by the NRL clubs play in either School competitions that have next to no involvement from the NZRL, or they play in locally run competitions that are run by regional RL bodies which with the exception of the Auckland Rugby League (which is basically the NZRL at this point and already see investment from the NRL through the Warriors anyway) are borderline independent from the NZRL, just like in Australia how the state leagues were for all intents and purposes independent bodies in the pre-ARL days.

So even if the NRL did for some reason start paying the NZRL for developing players (the vast majority of which they frankly aren't developing anyway) next to none of the money would find it's way out of the NZRL and/or Auckland Rugby League, and the vast majority of it probably wouldn't find it's way into development programs either. So you wouldn't be achieving what you intend anyway.

You bring this point up often and as usual it has no relevance to anything being discussed. The players have no obligation to either organisation, but co-dependent Rugby League organisations have an obligation to each other and to the sport.

I do... Ok then... Either way it does have relevance cause you are presenting the argument that the NRL owes the NZRL something for developing players when they don't owe the NZRL anything cause the NZRL don't own or control the players, the only people that owe the NZRL anything for developing their players are the players themselves and the players meet those obligations by meeting the requirements of their contracts with the NZRL, once those contracts are up they have no obligation to the NZRL either, just like you and your current employer owe nothing to your first employer that trained you in whatever you do.

By the way NZRL and NRL aren't co-dependent (well the NRL isn't dependant on the NZRL at least) and making them co-dependent will workout just as well for RL in NZ as SANZAAR has worked out for RU in Australia...

The NRL should enter a funding agreement with NZ not because they are required to but because it would be beneficial to the sport of Rugby League in both countries. A partially NRL funded strong NZ-wide competition would increase the number of Kiwis playing in the NRL while strengthening the game in NZ by giving players and fans weekly exposure to professional quality football.

The only way for the NRL to do something like that in NZ and make sure that their investment is being well spent and not abused would be for the NRL to have some sort of stake in the endeavor, the only way that is going to happen is if they either have a stake in the NZRL or if they have a stake in your hypothetical national competition, and considering they would almost certainly carry basically all the risk in that relationship as they'd almost certainly be investing the vast majority of the capital and resources they'd want to own a fair chunk of it to see a reasonable return on their investment should the venture be successful and have a very good hold on the business and the direction it takes (if they were being really kind to the NZRL they'd want at least 49%, realistically most investors in a similar situation to what the NRL would hypothetically be in would want quite a bit more, a majority share at least).

At that point you have to question what the NZRL would really bring to the table and if the NRL wouldn't be better off going it alone and running the comp themselves, but that is a whole other discussion.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

I don't know if I'd go as far as the NZRL losing their independence entirely but I do think national bodies who provide NRL players should receive some funding deal.

I think the big philosophical question they need to ask: "What is our independence worth?"

Assuming the ARLC refuses to give them a grant without joining up (and assuming the they WOULD get a grant if they did join), what exactly are they gaining and losing?

Pro: bunch of money to put into development, maybe money towards rep payments too (maybe the ARLC would even help to fund new rep teams), a voice in the ARLCs decision making (if NSWRL and QRL get seats, NZRL can demand one aswell)

Cons: less autonomy/need to accept direction from the Australians

To me the biggest thing is just that, if they have no money, what is the point of their freedom? It doesnt matter if they can decide whatever they want when they dont have the money to actually do it....

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Should that work vice versa? Should the RFL be paying the ARLC and NZRL also?

If the RLIF has the money to make it happen and the ARLC is willing to take directions from the RLIF board, then why not?

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Nonsense point. All I said was the the NRL shouldn't own the NZRL. They can enter a partnership, they can form a deal with specified outcomes for funding, etc.

I think youre getting too hung up on a sense of national sovereignty and independence....

I get that it is weird for NZ to be subservient to Australia, but the reality is NZRL is just not wealthy enough to demand an equal partnership while also asking for money. If money flows from the ARLC, they will want something in return.

Sure, the NZRL can accept money, promise outcomes the ARLC sets and still call themselves independent. But all that would achieve is missing the chance to claim a seat on the ARLC board.

I feel like the emotion of this would be different if the ARLC renamed themselves the Australasian Rugby League Commission, and if that is what it takes the fine...

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

You bring this point up often and as usual it has no relevance to anything being discussed. The players have no obligation to either organisation, but co-dependent Rugby League organisations have an obligation to each other and to the sport.

The NRL should enter a funding agreement with NZ not because they are required to but because it would be beneficial to the sport of Rugby League in both countries. A partially NRL funded strong NZ-wide competition would increase the number of Kiwis playing in the NRL while strengthening the game in NZ by giving players and fans weekly exposure to professional quality football.

ARLC is not dependent on the NZRL. The ARLC probably feel like they do just fine with the Warriors...

The reality is that if money flows out of the ARLC, they will want say over how that is spent. So if the NZRL accept their grant, they will need to spend it as the ARLC tells them too.