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Expansion, where and when??

Messages
607
I personally think that 18 teams is the limit but that relies on us bringing in talent from NZ and the UK. That requires profitability first and only two clubs are profitable now so lets think about 16. If we look at where the revenue is coming from QLD provides 34% of that


we have 70 odd ausssies running around in the superleague at the moment thats almost 3 squads worth.

Brisbane alone should account for 4 clubs

lets re-create the situation we have in sydney. So one one side of the country you want a city of 2m to have 4 teams but on the other side you want a city of 1.5m not to have one side.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
Mergers in Sydney. Tigers is an example where mergers can work.
9 teams in one city is too many when an entire state (QLD) has only 3.
 

Jankuloski

Juniors
Messages
799
So my question is why should we introduce clubs whose value to the end product is small and questionable in the first place when we have an under-represented heartland where league is flourishing?

First off, as I gathered you can still see the Storm on Pay TV. Second, News Ltd has been pumping money into the Storm continuously - they are not doing it for the good of the game.

Third - what under-represented heartland are we talking about if the Sharks get 2000 members a year? I suppose there would be that many members just out of NSW and QLD ppl migrating in Perth.

But, on a different note all the bids should take a page from the Titans' book - they never gave up, even when they were told NO, and they made their offer too good to refuse. I fail to see that in any prospective bid - everyone seems to be waiting to be told "you'll get in", and then they would work on it.
 

Ant

Juniors
Messages
478
it's hip for all these News ltd fanbois to state big business like phrases such as ...Expand,move forward,synergy to conceal their failings.

And I assume all you do is abuse people who have ideas because you have none of your own.
 

Ant

Juniors
Messages
478
I'd like to hear a reasoned rationale as to why it's a must.

The arguments for the 'NRL' to expand beyond it's fan base of QLD/NSW I've seen here are as follows:
- Not enough talent in NSW/QLD and we need more juniors.
- Need to expand territory to get more money from TV revenue.
- The 'N' in 'NRL' stands for 'National'.
- We need to 'stick it' to AFL and ARU.

I would say only the idea of more TV revenue has any shred of credibility yet it's still highly dubious if the Storm or a team in Perth would add any significant positive value to any future TV contract.
So my question is why should we introduce clubs whose value to the end product is small and questionable in the first place when we have an under-represented heartland where league is flourishing?

I think the AFL TV contract in comparison to ours would suggest there is something in having a truley national comp. They have created this situation by expanding into unfriendly territories and then supporting that area until it comes good. Even now brisbane and sydney have a solid fan base, but overall support in nsw and qld is very low (by way of free to air tv ratings).
Now I do agree with a point you made, the SA and WA markets are no where near as big or important to TV companies and other sponsors as NSW, VIC and QLD.
But to go into marketing, Rugby league is a mature product in NSW and QLD, there is very little chance of significant increases in those markets where we already dominate. Except SE QLD which is under utilised.
Companies, any companies to go forward must expand into new territories, the AFL have shown us how successful that can be.

We can stay at the status quo, a pretty successful sporting comp, but lagging further and further behind our major competitor. So more and more money will head their way as sponsors will put their money where they get most exposure. AFL player wages will continue to rise far quicker than NRL wages and it will become a more lucrative option to kids. AFL will be able to pump more and more money into junior development and influence more kids to play their game.
So we can stay in our own backyards while the rest of the world moves forward, but it will be to our own detriment.

The simple fact is we are in the most competitive sporting market in the world. We have a small population and a wide and varied sporting appetite. NRL is competing with union, soccer and afl at home, and then must compete for its professional players with Eurosuper league, overseas union clubs as well.
But the second part is actually a bonus for us in some ways, the fact that league has a global option. An AFL player can't go and have a few years in Europe.
There is no way of stopping it, Dallas Johnson is off to europe not just for the money, he is young aussie with a girlfriend who wants to travel.
But we must continue to expand and create more revenue and players so that while players will head overseas they will come back and less will go due to high contracts at home.

If we are to expand a second SE qld team is obvious, the area is league heartland and massively underutilised. Perth is the most obvious new market and should be next.

It was in my view a tragedy that the bears were booted, in theory we should have a team there now. But it was also a tragedy that the crushers and WA reds were lost as well.
We need to look at the best options for the game to move forward. I would have no problems with the bears coming back, I just personally feel they are not priority number one or two.
The second thing about WA, the mining sector means huge money over there and lots of ex NSW and qlders are there.

I'd add I am not for forcing sydney teams into anything, all you do is offer incentives. Its expensive to move an NRL team for one game and usually the local govt/council puts in big money to make it happen.

But an incentive to move to another state full time should be on offer to sydney teams.

Anyway just my view that WA and a second SE qld team are the best fit.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
66,928
Well said.

Facts are:

1. We have saturation in NSW and Q'land (mostly) so if we are to GROW then it has to be in other locations
2. Sponsors want their products seen nationally. It's why Samsung paid Essendon 3 times what they paid the Roosters for the shirt naming rights, it's why Telstra pay the AFL $12mill more than the NRL for media rights etc.
3. Media want max viewing. Don't be fooled by Ch9's refusal to show NRl into Vic, SA and WA. it has nothing to do with audience figures (as proved by the 900k that tuned into he GF in Vic and the 150K tuning in in WA). Afl know this, its why they are spending so much in Q'land and NSw, it's their last remaining places to grow into and they know it will secure them big $'s well into the future from media.
4. WA is already producing NRL 1st graders with virtually zero RL profile or $'s in the State, Melb have only just started to take this seriously and will also be doing so within the next few years. Plus we have heaps of talent leaving the game every year to play on SL or RU.
5. In years to come we will fall behind other codes if we remain static. In the business world there is no such thing as stationary, you are either moving forward or backwards in realtion to your competitiors.

Some will always believe that the NRL can remain a predominantly Sydney suburban comp with a sprinkling of others, such is the nature of progress and the difficulties of accepting change.
 

ashton

Juniors
Messages
1,223
IMO there should be a maximum of 16 sides in the NRL. And the last thing we need is any more sides from NSW.
 

1 Eyed TEZZA

Coach
Messages
12,420
I think I can speak for most of us that want the Bears back on the coast. We know there are too many NSW sides in the comp, but the plan is for the weakest Sydney club to die out once the Bears are in. :D
 

Bro Bear

Juniors
Messages
275
Yes WA has produced alot of NRL players. Matt Peterson, the Newcastle backrower, and Holdsworth have played footy in WA.

If that is a reason why WA deserves a NRL team, then they should be in it.

By the way where did their Jim Beam game come this season.

Central Coast has more going for it than any other bid.

WA Reds need to be competitive at NSW Cup/QLD Cup level first.

Maybe they can get the CRL/NSWRL to finance their team in a feeder club relationship like Newcastle.

However, I hope to see a WA team in the NRL one day but after the Central Coast Bears and a second QLD team.

Expand where the juniors and the majority of supporters are.

NT has produced far more AFL players than WA has NRL players but they will not have an AFL team for years.

They are playing in the QAFL as the NT Thunder.

Finance, juniors, stadium, supporter base are what the NRL needs.
 

dimitri

First Grade
Messages
7,980
Yes WA has produced alot of NRL players. Matt Peterson, the Newcastle backrower, and Holdsworth have played footy in WA.

If that is a reason why WA deserves a NRL team, then they should be in it.

By the way where did their Jim Beam game come this season.

Central Coast has more going for it than any other bid.

WA Reds need to be competitive at NSW Cup/QLD Cup level first.

Maybe they can get the CRL/NSWRL to finance their team in a feeder club relationship like Newcastle.

However, I hope to see a WA team in the NRL one day but after the Central Coast Bears and a second QLD team.

Expand where the juniors and the majority of supporters are.

NT has produced far more AFL players than WA has NRL players but they will not have an AFL team for years.

They are playing in the QAFL as the NT Thunder.

Finance, juniors, stadium, supporter base are what the NRL needs.

Its the old chicken and egg scenario!

A team in Perth will do wonders for the junior numbers!

If the Reds werent unfairly culled in the first place their junior numbers would be much better, certainly better than those of Melbourne.

Next 2 teams should be CC and WA - combined they offer more to RL than any other combo.

Another Brisbane team was a dismal failure last time!
 
Messages
607
NT has produced far more AFL players than WA has NRL players but they will not have an AFL team for years.

they wont have a side because the population is to small.
Its why we shouldnt put a side in the central coast just yet, it only has 300k people.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
Its the old chicken and egg scenario!

A team in Perth will do wonders for the junior numbers!

If the Reds werent unfairly culled in the first place their junior numbers would be much better, certainly better than those of Melbourne.

Next 2 teams should be CC and WA - combined they offer more to RL than any other combo.

Another Brisbane team was a dismal failure last time!

Because of the Super League war and the rebels popularity in QLD. That aside, the Crushers were off to a great start - a great pack and some good juniors that came through.
 

Fraser

Guest
Messages
384
Its the old chicken and egg scenario!

A team in Perth will do wonders for the junior numbers!

If the Reds werent unfairly culled in the first place their junior numbers would be much better, certainly better than those of Melbourne.

Next 2 teams should be CC and WA - combined they offer more to RL than any other combo.

Another Brisbane team was a dismal failure last time!

wasnt perth a dismal failure last time

i think we need another 3 teams in brisbane. bring back newtown
 

Ant

Juniors
Messages
478
Yes WA has produced alot of NRL players. Matt Peterson, the Newcastle backrower, and Holdsworth have played footy in WA.

If that is a reason why WA deserves a NRL team, then they should be in it.

By the way where did their Jim Beam game come this season.

Central Coast has more going for it than any other bid.

WA Reds need to be competitive at NSW Cup/QLD Cup level first.

Maybe they can get the CRL/NSWRL to finance their team in a feeder club relationship like Newcastle.

However, I hope to see a WA team in the NRL one day but after the Central Coast Bears and a second QLD team.

Expand where the juniors and the majority of supporters are.

NT has produced far more AFL players than WA has NRL players but they will not have an AFL team for years.

They are playing in the QAFL as the NT Thunder.

Finance, juniors, stadium, supporter base are what the NRL needs.

Look I understand what you are saying but with logic you would never expand into any area that the game was not already popular. You would be stuck in the same areas, while other games expand and build their base. In areas where the game is not extremely popular it is hard to build a code from the ground up. Thats why AFL are putting a top string side into western sydney.
Perth has a small league fan base and despite the removal of its top team years ago has still tried to push forward with a jim beam cup team.
They have a large population base and a big corporate base.

Anyway I have long held the view that we must go back to Perth because it was already showing promising signs when the reds were booted. Perth has a large UK and South african population which is why the super 14 went there before melbourne. It already has a solid club league comp.

Once again SE qld is over 3 million people and only has 2 teams in a league heartland. Its clearly got room for more revenue. It would also be a disgrace that SE qld would have as many afl teams as NRL teams.

I am not against the CC, just think in order of priorities its not at the top.

There have been a few arguments that some of these areas have had sides (ie. reds, crushers etc) and they failed. Just like the CC had half a team and it failed. The Crushers and Reds came into the comp and then had to deal with inflated wages of the sl war.
I lived in brisbane when the crushers came in and it was very exciting, a local rivarly and many brisbane league fans were not bronco fans. But then SL came and the crushers were seen as NSW puppets and lost fans. Both the reds and crushers were sacrificial lambs in the peace deal.
The CC were given half a team they didn't want, it was not their own.
But I don't think any of those previous failures is relevant to the current debate. Lets not forget the GC failed too, and now is back and going great.

I don't want to deathride any sydney sides, I am a fan of the eels myself. But I do think long term we may well see one team die or possibly relocate to say perth. and the introduction of a new SE qld team and possibly the CC bears. An 18 team comp. I do know we can't force a team out, the best way is to offer relocation money, otherwise teams die a natural death.
 
Messages
607
The central coast is similar size to wollongong but they dont have a full time team.
Well, lets punt Newcastle, Canberra and NQ for the same reason...........


I am not totally against the idea, the participation rate on the coast is awesome it is the second best in the comp behind townsville, on avg 4.3% of the central coast turn up for games. As in a previuos post i would bring them in when we admit a adelade team.

To be fair the hunter region has a population of 650k, Canberra(400k with queanbyan) i agree with prob shouldnt be there and Townsville just defies belief shouldnt work but it does.

We have two markets that represent 3 million people that we should expand into, we will always have a market in nsw and queensland.

Three out of the four professional (various types of football) teams in Perth turn a very healthy profit
 

Bro Bear

Juniors
Messages
275
The Central Coast bid inludes the North Shore of Sydney which is growing at a rapid rate through the Northern Western corridor. The North Shore has gone over to union and league is slowly dying as the juniors have no direct pathway to the NRL, apart from Souths NYC, which a few of the lads have been called up. The NSWRL and NRL have neglected the league on the North Shore.

If the bids are in population well add the few hundred thousand that live on the North Shore plus the businesses there that are behind the bid..

The Northen Eagles were Manly and were never the Central Coast's team.

Sydney clubs such as Cronulla who are broke have been offered deals to relocate to Central Coast. They didn't want it. If no Sydney club wants to move, I can understand, then back to NSW Cup and let in an area that has more financial backing.

It must be the CC Bears next and either WA Reds or a second Brisbane/QLD team.

2013 - CC Bears, Wests Brisbane Jets/Brothers

2018 - WA Reds, Wellington Orca's or PNG Hunters
 
Messages
607
Yes i realise we are broke and not suggesestng my club survives if it cant turn itself around. The bears took a huge gamble with the whole central coast idea and it was a winner but it didnt work out for what ever reasons.
So combined total of just over 500k is accetpable.
Think we should balance expansion with a safe team eg CC or SEQ team.
Dont think we should knock back long term projects that are good for the game to sure up areas that already love our game.

The NSWRL and NRL have neglected the league on the North Shore.
This wont be fixed by having a team on the central coast, there are already another nine teams around there that could prop up that territory. That is a NSWRL problem.

The Northen Eagles were Manly and were never the Central Coast's team.

And the steelers are just the dragons on the coast, its just that there management werent stupid enough to screw over the people of the south coast.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
The reason the CC won't have a team anytime soon is because NSW already has 10 teams. It's time for expansion, not contraction.
 
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