Explain - No Manchester Super League ?

[WireMan]

What a bizarre thing to say that a RU club in Altrincham would make the game huuuuge. However, there's no RL at all in Altrincham so RU is clearly bigger there.

Alty is a Cheshire town, south of the canal. I would be comfortable saying union is bigger there. League is hardly played south of the Canal. Its a working class northern sport, not a Cheshire sport.

 

[bowes]

Yeah only Chester, Crewe and Ellesmere Port have rugby league clubs in traditional Cheshire unless there's new clubs in the merit league from there.

Stockport isn't Manchester. But yes someone isn't going to respect boundaries in the case of a club a mile or 2 down the road but generally having a club in the area means people are far more likely to play as few people travel out of area to play. I'd be amazed if there were more than a couple of players travelling from Altrincham to Salford so a club there would be expansion.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Fallen down to levels? :lol:

For my information? :lol:

Ok, you win, we should expand into Trafford. Think of the children, there is no rugby teams there, what would a youngster in Trafford do if they wanted to play the game?

Even though you are apparently trying to be sarcastic, the point you make is the exact point I am making.
What do the kids in the Trafford who want to play RL have to do? They have to travel a fair few miles up the road into Salford to play. Baring in mind these are kids, and not adults, it is extremely difficult. There should be open-age and junior clubs in the Trafford borough, and we should be expanding into there (just like we should be expanding into everywhere).

Apparently you are happy with the way things are, and if that is the case, you are happy that RU is stronger in a lot of parts of the Manchester area (which people seem to think is a heartland, despite the facts showing it is very much an ignored area save a 2-3 boroughs).

Just like the poor kids of Manchester only have one football team to play for, Salford there is no professionally team, its like a footballing desert. Trafford have got it made though, what with the cricket as well.

You are either confusing pro-spectator football with participation football again, or you are just trying to be difficult because you are losing your argument.

There is only one football team in Manchester? Er... no there isn't. Type M1 (centre of Manchester) into the FA's Club Locator, and it brings up over 30 teams within 2 miles of all abilities, ages, genders. That's who they play for.
Type "Trafford" into the RL Club Locator, it brings up nothing within Trafford.

Or maybe an administration map which you put on before is not that important, especially as geographically the old boundaries never moved which is why Manchester, Warrington and Liverpool are in Lancashire.

No, historically the old boundaries may never have moved (to those that it matters to), but geographically they did.
But I bet you refer to Barrow as being in Cumbria though, and not Lancashire

The Alty point was to raise the fact that has predictably gone over your heads that if a team is in Alty it doesn't mean those deprived kids in Trafford have a local team to support, making your maps even more irrelevant. Especially as Alty is south of the canal so is geographically in Cheshire.

AGAIN, you're confusing spectator sport with participation sport. There is more to a sport being "big" than how many fans come through the turnstyles (especially if you're using one game a year where 95% of the crowd are from outside that area).
If there are NO clubs in an area (at any level), it means no people are playing in that area, and therefore the game can't really be that big IN that area. It's hard to factor in just how many people are willing to travel OUTSIDE the area to watch/play, but if general Central Placement Theories are used, it won't be that many. This is why there needs to be clubs in these areas to strengthen the game.

It doesn't matter if Alty is in Trafford, Cheshire or Germany. If there are no clubs within a certain radius of it, then the game isn't that strong there. The further you get away from something, the harder it is to attract people to it.

I officially give up, you have your ideas, i have mine. I think a map showing no rugby league in an area doesn't mean kids there can't an don't play it, and a lack of league clubs in the city doesn't mean it is not followed. There is no professional football team in Salford, Warrington, St Helens and Widnes therefore no crowds at all. Does that mean its not followed there? Of course not.

Nobody has suggested that. In fact, you'll find I've said MANY times that there no doubt WILL be people in Manchester that can and most likely do travel each and every week to watch the game. Just not in significant numbers.
And you'll find that there are semi-pro football clubs in each of those places you mention, so there are crowds. You appear to be ignorant of how strong football actually is EVERYWHERE in this country. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of semi-pro clubs, whereas there are about 20 in England.

The only way to see what people think and how people move around is to live and work there.

No it's not. That is a very close-minded view. It helps, but it's not the only way at all. There are some people in the region that will not know anything. And likewise, there are people outside of the region that will know and have researched how people live and work in all areas of the country in a socio-demographic way and can apply it to each area using facts and research. You can believe that only you and the people around you know about your area all you want simply by just living and working there, but you apparently know a lot less than you think.

I guarantee you there are more people that live outside of Hull that know more about Hull and the East Riding than there are in it.

If i lived in Hulme (Manchester) and there was a Union club in the Stockport (Manchester), and a League club in Salford (not in Manchester), which is easiest to get to and which would you associate yourself with? Give you a clue, getting across Manchester is a pain.

Stockport isn't in Manchester.
And even if it was, it's obviously easier to go to the place which is closest. Salford is only 3 miles away from Hulme. Stockport is about 10. Hence my point that I keep making - "The closer there are clubs to an area, the more likely people will go watch/play there". There aren't many in/around Manchester. Therefore it is LESS likely. So it's not that strong.

 

[WireMan]

Yeah only Chester, Crewe and Ellesmere Port have rugby league clubs in traditional Cheshire unless there's new clubs in the merit league from there.

Stockport isn't Manchester. But yes someone isn't going to respect boundaries in the case of a club a mile or 2 down the road but generally having a club in the area means people are far more likely to play as few people travel out of area to play. I'd be amazed if there were more than a couple of players travelling from Altrincham to Salford so a club there would be expansion.

Oh yeah, Cheshire would be a good place for the RFL to try and develop. I guess its just a question of how far the RFL want to go. Is the ultimate goal to get a professional team in an expansion area? It would appear so, as its used as a reason to keep Quins in super league, so if there is no calling for a top level side (or championship side) then its unlikely the RFL would want to invest.

As for expansion into Manchester it will be very difficult. Manchester is football and unless you got the game played in schools is unlikely people would want to play or watch it in any numbers. Look at Salfords crowds and that is an established team. Just like you could say its upto Warrington and Widnes to set teams up in Cheshire, St Helens into Merseyside and Wigan into Lancashire i suppose you have to look at Salford to develop the game in Manc. Trafford is just over Barton bridge from the new ground and the south manc schools are not a million miles away.

I'd prefer the RFL to support rugby league in North Manchester (Oldham and Rochdale) before central Manchester.


The RFL are trying to get away from the northern M62 image. Manchester would not help with that. Cheshire would at least drag the game a bit further south. But other areas would have greater appeal i feel. Midlands etc.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Oh yeah, Cheshire would be a good place for the RFL to try and develop. I guess its just a question of how far the RFL want to go. Is the ultimate goal to get a professional team in an expansion area? It would appear so, as its used as a reason to keep Quins in super league, so if there is no calling for a top level side (or championship side) then its unlikely the RFL would want to invest.

As for expansion into Manchester it will be very difficult. Manchester is football and unless you got the game played in schools is unlikely people would want to play or watch it in any numbers. Look at Salfords crowds and that is an established team. Just like you could say its upto Warrington and Widnes to set teams up in Cheshire, St Helens into Merseyside and Wigan into Lancashire i suppose you have to look at Salford to develop the game in Manc. Trafford is just over Barton bridge from the new ground and the south manc schools are not a million miles away.

I'd prefer the RFL to support rugby league in North Manchester (Oldham and Rochdale) before central Manchester.


The RFL are trying to get away from the northern M62 image. Manchester would not help with that. Cheshire would at least drag the game a bit further south. But other areas would have greater appeal i feel. Midlands etc.

This is actually a pretty good post.

Not quite sure what you mean by the part in bold. If it's an expansion area, then obviously the RFL want to expand into there (otherwise it wouldn't be an expansion area).

Ultimately, it's surely the RFL's goal to get a professional team (at lower league level at least) in every area in the country. There's not exactly a limit to the number of pro teams we can have.

Totally agree with you that the RFL should look at Cheshire (working closer to getting into the Midlands). Warrington should be looking to develop down there. Crusaders have apparently been doing some stuff in Chester IIRC. Also need to work on strengthening the area north of Manchester (Oldham and Rochdale). So many talented youngsters are produced in that area, and if the clubs up there were bigger, they'd attract even more youngsters.

Salford are not an attractive club as they stand, being based in a rough estate in a crap stadium. But once they've moved, and are in a much better ground straight off the motorway, they could possibly begin to attract people from the neighbouring boroughs (Manchester, Trafford and Bury). Wigan and Leigh should be working on Bolton and into parts of what is now Lancashire (another area where the is not much RL). Again, this is why we could do with Oldham/Rochdale doing well as they'd be probably closest geographically to pulling from these areas.

Widnes and Saints should be looking at Liverpool and the rest of Merseyside as well as parts of Lancashire.

It's just a shame that our 4 biggest RL clubs in the NW (Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Widnes) are all neighbouring boroughs rather than a bit more spread out in the region. Same sort of issue in West Yorkshire.

 

[WireMan]

This is actually a pretty good post.

Not quite sure what you mean by the part in bold. If it's an expansion area, then obviously the RFL want to expand into there (otherwise it wouldn't be an expansion area).

Ultimately, it's surely the RFL's goal to get a professional team (at lower league level at least) in every area in the country. There's not exactly a limit to the number of pro teams we can have.

Totally agree with you that the RFL should look at Cheshire (working closer to getting into the Midlands). Warrington should be looking to develop down there. Crusaders have apparently been doing some stuff in Chester IIRC. Also need to work on strengthening the area north of Manchester (Oldham and Rochdale). So many talented youngsters are produced in that area, and if the clubs up there were bigger, they'd attract even more youngsters.

Salford are not an attractive club as they stand, being based in a rough estate in a crap stadium. But once they've moved, and are in a much better ground straight off the motorway, they could possibly begin to attract people from the neighbouring boroughs (Manchester, Trafford and Bury). Wigan and Leigh should be working on Bolton and into parts of what is now Lancashire (another area where the is not much RL). Again, this is why we could do with Oldham/Rochdale doing well as they'd be probably closest geographically to pulling from these areas.

Widnes and Saints should be looking at Liverpool and the rest of Merseyside as well as parts of Lancashire.

It's just a shame that our 4 biggest RL clubs in the NW (Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Widnes) are all neighbouring boroughs rather than a bit more spread out in the region. Same sort of issue in West Yorkshire.

It is a bit of a shame, but maybe if they were not so close the sport would not be as big. There is no better motivator than trying to beat your neighbours!!

As for the bit in bold, i was just speculating about the end game of expansion. If the RFL want to expand into junior clubs to increase player participation then expansion into the surrounding area is definately possible, and quite easy really. However with the Quins, one reason for them to not be considered in the race to lose your license is the growth of the youth game down there. A super league team gives a kind of figure head and good exposure to any development i guess.

Hence why i think expansion into areas discussed in this thread has to be lead by teams. We will never have a super league team in rural Cheshire and i doubt we will see one in say Blackpool or Manchester (not completey writing it off). These developments can be supported both financially and people wise by the RFL in the form of grants etc.

I would of thought with the number of foreign players being reduced, it would make sense for teams to spread there nets a little wider. As you say, all the clubs in the NW are very close so that doesn't leave a lot of places that are exclusively yours. If Greg Inglis was born in Newton-le-Willows for example (poor lad) there would be an almighty scramble for him with three clubs very close. If you find the new Inglis in say Preston, then Wigan are laughing for example.

A long way to go yet though, the first place Warrington needs to expand to in Cheshire is Lymm (seperate village but part of Warrington). They produce some great players there, shame they all play Union!

 

[bowes]

Lymm had a side last year (and 2008 and 2009) but they seem to have folded

 

[bowes]

Actually found out the provisional membership of the NW merit league (23 members! Got to be one of the biggest RL divisions in the world).

New Broughton Rangers (not Manchester but very near) will be re-entering at that level.

It will also include 6 Cheshire sides (linked to the aside above):

Chester Gladiators A
Crewe & Nantwich Steamers A
Lymm
Runcorn
Wirral Warriors
Ellesmere Port

Makes 9 teams in total when you include Chester and Crewe's first team in NW Regional and Chester's North Western Counties League team

 

[WireMan]

Actually found out the provisional membership of the NW merit league (23 members! Got to be one of the biggest RL divisions in the world).

New Broughton Rangers (not Manchester but very near) will be re-entering at that level.

It will also include 6 Cheshire sides (linked to the aside above):

Chester Gladiators A
Crewe & Nantwich Steamers A
Lymm
Runcorn
Wirral Warriors
Ellesmere Port

Makes 9 teams in total when you include Chester and Crewe's first team in NW Regional and Chester's North Western Counties League team

Good stuff.

Some terrible names there though, Crewe and Nantwich steamers? Chester Gladiators??? Wirral Warriors???? What kind of name is the Ellesmere Port!! :sarcasm:



Two top level matches in Greater Manchester on Friday. One was a vital relegation battle. The crowd levels speak for themselves. Also of note in said relegatin battle, one team scored two tries, one didn't score any, have a guess which team won!

 

[Goldfields_Titans]

New Broughton Rangers (not Manchester but very near) will be re-entering at that level.

Broughton was never originally in Salford. It/they were separate districts until the City of Salford was formed in the 70's. All suburbs should have kept their disctinctiveness IMO and not swallowed up into municipal mess.

 

[bowes]

Good stuff.

Some terrible names there though, Crewe and Nantwich steamers? Chester Gladiators??? Wirral Warriors???? What kind of name is the Ellesmere Port!! :sarcasm:

Ellesmere Port's actually the name of a town. Steamers is a very weird name though. Though sadly seems like New Broughton Rangers, Wirral Warriors and Runcorn probably won't have a side

Apparently Lymm got relegated 2 divisions because their application was late.:shock: The divisions were massively oversubscribed though.

 

[RedVee]

Ellesmere Port's actually the name of a town. Steamers is a very weird name though. Though sadly seems like New Broughton Rangers, Wirral Warriors and Runcorn probably won't have a side

Apparently Lymm got relegated 2 divisions because their application was late.:shock: The divisions were massively oversubscribed though.

Steamers, do they use the old SQ Crushers logo?

 

[bowes]

http://www.rugbyleagueconference.co.uk/article/major-partnership-in-manchester.html

Looks like Mancunians are interested in joining Championship 1 by 2015

 

[bowes]

Steamers, do they use the old SQ Crushers logo?

Just had a look and it's the front of a train

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/creweandnantwichsteamersrlfc/

 

[Evil Homer]

'Steamers' is probably a reference to the local area, I don't know much about Crewe but maybe there is a history of steam trains there or something? A lot of the grassroots teams seem to have unusual and personal nicknames which is good, certainly a lot better than a bunch of teams called 'Warriors' or 'Panthers'.

 

[WireMan]

I know Ellesmere port is a place, i was just being stupid, cause i'm in a good rugby place at the mo!!


Crewe is famous for its station and trains. Basically the west coast mainline (London to Glasgow) splits at Crewe like a Trident. The right line goes upto Manc, the left to Liverpool or the middle one goes upto Glasgow. Hence there are a lot of trains!

They also build and repair them there.


I'd assume the Gladiators would be the Roman connection at Chester. They have a nice wall there. Wirral Warriors probably because they both start with the same letter!

 

[Goldfields_Titans]

http://www.rugbyleagueconference.co.uk/article/major-partnership-in-manchester.html

Looks like Mancunians are interested in joining Championship 1 by 2015

That would be good. Some extra derby material for Swinton, Oldham, Leigh and Rochdale.
Funny how Salford are not involved with Mancunians.

 

[RedVee]

Just had a look and it's the front of a train

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/creweandnantwichsteamersrlfc/

Similar concept, different detail level.
Cool.

They could have been the Rollers!

 

[bowes]

That would be good. Some extra derby material for Swinton, Oldham, Leigh and Rochdale.
Funny how Salford are not involved with Mancunians.

Not really Leigh as they're wrong division but a good derby for Oldham, Swinton and Rochdale and a chance to return semi-pro rugby league to a city it left 60 years before then.

The talk is the RFL want 2 divisions of 12 with 3 new clubs. Hemel are very likely, Coventry are fairly likely but think the 3rd new club may have to wait unless they take Warrington Wizards. They wan an East Midlands or South West club though Bristol and Northampton are saying yes but not yet, Bristol are saying 2014 not sure about Northampton

 

[Goldfields_Titans]

Not really Leigh as they're wrong division but a good derby for Oldham, Swinton and Rochdale and a chance to return semi-pro rugby league to a city it left 60 years before then.

The talk is the RFL want 2 divisions of 12 with 3 new clubs. Hemel are very likely, Coventry are fairly likely but think the 3rd new club may have to wait unless they take Warrington Wizards. They wan an East Midlands or South West club though Bristol and Northampton are saying yes but not yet, Bristol are saying 2014 not sure about Northampton

Coventry Bears have some very good facilities but what about Notts, Northants and Hemel?

Last time I watched a Hemel game on YT it looked like an open park pitch. I remember they had some ambitious plans in the 90's for a small stadium with stands.

Wilderspool need renovating unless Warrington Council can build a small ground for Wizards/Woolston?