Explain - No Manchester Super League ?

[bowes]

So what is Manchester then? The City Centre and that's it?

No it's the city of Manchester which has 400,000 people. It doesn't go far from the centre to the north, west and east but does stretch further to the south.

 

[bowes]

The lack of RL in Manchester seems to have started early as when they formed lower divisions in Lancashire in 1897 the 2 Manchester clubs who were to enter (Blackley Rangers and Cheetham Hill) both failed to start the season. They were more clubs in nearby places like Tameside and Salford in those days though.

 

[bowes]

I lived in Manchester for a few months in 2006 and I found both rugby codes to be very small tbh! They both definitely have a presence and super league was played in a few pubs, but most people wouldn't be classed as fans! I would guess that there would be more union players, more people watch super league than domestic union, and a fair few people watch england union team!

Sounds about what I'd have expected. Definitely many more people play RU but people watch SL everywhere not just RL areas as it's a popular sport for television. I don't think some people watching something on television down the pub makes it a big sport there but obviously neither do you.

 

[manoj p]

Strange how all this interest in union in Manchester has almost never manifested itself in crowds of any size there.

Rugby league on the other hand...

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

So what is Manchester then? The City Centre and that's it?

No, unless there are over 400,000 people living in the city centre.

People are just confusing the suburbs around Manchester as actually being a part of Manchester. Same as they do round Hull (to a much smaller degree).

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

What a classic rant... :lol:

And one you have no answer for.

Bowes is trying to push the line union dominates Manchester. He is wrong.

No he isn't. Dominates was never a word used because it simply isn't true.

Given you agree, you post the union crowds at each stadia (as he ran away from) and then I will respond.

I don't agree because it's something that no-one ever said.

Does the strength of a sport only be demonstrated through crowds? What about playing numbers? Teams? Why don't you make this list of all the RL teams in Manchester and we'll compare it to the RU teams.

Lovely to see you offering to take up a challenge he failed miserably in.

He didn't fail miserably. He just couldn't be bothered to deal with someone who clearly can't argue so has to make up what the other person says and post it constantly.

Then you can start listing union crowds in the north of England and we will have some real laughs....

:lol::lol::lol:

What for?

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Wellsy also now claims union isn't dominated in the north by rugby league.

Another 1895 denial. lol

Did I?

And why would I deny 1895? Are you suggesting I'm a rugby union fan?

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Strange how all this interest in union in Manchester has almost never manifested itself in crowds of any size there.

Rugby league on the other hand...

Not strange at all considering no-one has said that rugby union is popular in Manchester. Can you not read? Or are you one of those people that ignore parts of conversations to make yourself feel intelligent?

Do you not find it strange that if what you think is true about the popularity of rugby league in Manchester that there is only one very small amateur club in the city?

 

[manoj p]

:lol:

And one you have no answer for.


No he isn't. Dominates was never a word used because it simply isn't true.


I don't agree because it's something that no-one ever said.

Does the strength of a sport only be demonstrated through crowds? What about playing numbers? Teams? Why don't you make this list of all the RL teams in Manchester and we'll compare it to the RU teams.


He didn't fail miserably. He just couldn't be bothered to deal with someone who clearly can't argue so has to make up what the other person says and post it constantly.


What for?

There was nothing to answer. Crawl back to where you came from with gutterfax & Co.

:lol:

As for union in Manchester, :lol:

Bowes and his union. :lol:

Not much else to say really...

Let me know when you want to start comparing rugby league and union crowds in Manchester so everyone can get a good laugh.

 

[bowes]

Looks like we have another Calixte on here who just posts pages and pages of absolute gibberish with no relevance to anything that really wrecked the quality of debate on the forum.

 

[manoj p]

Someone else that beat you up previously?

lol

Not surprised really.

Back to the thread, feel free to post those union crowds in Manchester to prove your theory.

 

[bowes]

Looked up how many RU clubs in Manchester and how many senior teams. As I suspected it's small but still dwarfs RL:

Broughton Park (5 open age teams)
Didsbury (4 open age teams)
Old Bedians (3 open age teams)
North Manchester (2 open age teams)

Compared to in RL:

Mancunians (2 open age teams)

So 7 times as many adults sides, I didn't do juniors but not sure whether Mancunians have set theirs up yet.

Both sports are massively dwarfed by soccer and cricket but RU is not quite so small as RL. I expect good things from Mancunians in the next few years though so hopefully RL can start to close that gap.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Someone else that beat you up previously?

lol

Not surprised really.

Back to the thread, feel free to post those union crowds in Manchester to prove your theory.

There hasn't been a RL game played in Manchester at pro level since 2004. So there's nothing really to compare any RL crowds to anyway.

So here's my list of RU crowds in 2005-2011: zero
Here's my list of RL crowds in 2005-2011: zero

So we must compare other factors, like playing strength...

Looked up how many RU clubs in Manchester and how many senior teams. As I suspected it's small but still dwarfs RL:

Broughton Park (5 open age teams)
Didsbury (4 open age teams)
Old Bedians (3 open age teams)
North Manchester (2 open age teams)

Compared to in RL:

Mancunians (2 open age teams)

So 7 times as many adults sides, I didn't do juniors but not sure whether Mancunians have set theirs up yet.

Both sports are massively dwarfed by soccer and cricket but RU is not quite so small as RL. I expect good things from Mancunians in the next few years though so hopefully RL can start to close that gap.

So there are no pro crowds to compare, but there are playing numbers and teams to compare, and despite both being tiny (no matter what the idiot says), RU has far more clubs.

He has nothing. He can't list his RL crowds.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Someone else that beat you up previously?

lol

Not surprised really.

Back to the thread, feel free to post those union crowds in Manchester to prove your theory.

There hasn't been a RL game played in Manchester at pro level since 2004. So there's nothing really to compare any RL crowds to anyway.

So here's my list of RU crowds in 2005-2011: zero
Here's my list of RL crowds in 2005-2011: zero

So we must compare other factors, like playing strength...

Looked up how many RU clubs in Manchester and how many senior teams. As I suspected it's small but still dwarfs RL:

Broughton Park (5 open age teams)
Didsbury (4 open age teams)
Old Bedians (3 open age teams)
North Manchester (2 open age teams)

Compared to in RL:

Mancunians (2 open age teams)

So 7 times as many adults sides, I didn't do juniors but not sure whether Mancunians have set theirs up yet.

Both sports are massively dwarfed by soccer and cricket but RU is not quite so small as RL. I expect good things from Mancunians in the next few years though so hopefully RL can start to close that gap.

So there are no pro crowds to compare, but there are playing numbers and teams to compare, and despite both being tiny (no matter what the idiot says), RU has far more clubs.

He has nothing. He can't list his RL crowds.

 

[manoj p]

There hasn't been a RL game played in Manchester at pro level since 2004. So there's nothing really to compare any RL crowds to anyway.

So here's my list of RU crowds in 2005-2011: zero
Here's my list of RL crowds in 2005-2011: zero

So we must compare other factors, like playing strength...



So there are no pro crowds to compare, but there are playing numbers and teams to compare, and despite both being tiny (no matter what the idiot says), RU has far more clubs.

He has nothing. He can't list his RL crowds.

1. Saying it twice doesn't make it any better.
2. Quite a sample there 2005-2011. lol
3. Are you sure there have been no crowds in Manchester for rugby league in the period 2005-2011? lol

Desperation in action.

Next.

 

[Goldfields_Titans]

"There hasn't been a RL game played in Manchester at pro level since 2004" City of Manchester area only yes, but not Manchester as a region. Salford is part of the Manchester metro region. Times are changing.

 

[WireMan]

Rubbish. No it hasn't. It's like trying to say Cottingham and Willerby are in Hull. They're near Hull, and most people from these places will tell people they're from Hull, but it isn't actually in Hull no matter how many people "think" it is.

No matter what you "think" or what people from these places "think", it is FACT that it is not in Manchester. It's not a matter of opinion. Opinion is irrelevant when you are presented with the facts, and trying to argue against them with "opinions" is pretty pointless when the facts are in front of you.

That map put Alty in Trafford. Enough said.

Just please stop it now, the 'United is not in Manchester' debate is boring.



As for the thread: In the city slums of manchester, neither code is played all that much. Its a football city.

Its surrounded however by towns which all play League and a lot of people in these towns live or work in the city. Yes there is a Union team, (2 actually as Orrell were a famous team before they collapsed), but the numbers supporting them do not match up to League.

Therefore on any given day the sport of Rugby league is bigger in the city. This is because people move around. Drive into Manc any morning and sit in the carpark that was once a motorway.

So to answer the thread question, the reason a team would not work there is these said people already support a different team, be it Salford, Wigan, Warrington, Widnes, Leigh, St Helens, Oldham, Rochdale, etc. you get the point. Meaning the support for an expansion team into the city would struggle to find new support especially as people of Longsight, Hulme, Ardwick etc. really don't want to know. IMO of course.

It would be like moving a brand new football team into the city, everyone who gives a monkeys there already supports someone else so the crowds would be low.

Its not a new sport to the city. Where as expansion into North Wales, the Midlands, Milton Keynes etc. is a new sport in the region so there may be potential to find a fan base.

 

[bowes]

Funnily enough, Mancunians and Belle Vue Rangers (who would have shipped in all their players from places like Salford) are the only open age clubs from the City of Manchester I can find any evidence of ever existing (though there surely must have been some in the early days of Northern Union and may have been in the BARLA boom period of the 80s I guess) as the 2 clubs I mentioned earlier (Blackley Rangers and Cheetham Hill) never played a game in the Lancashire 3rd comp in the end and Manchester Jets never started the season in 2008.

Manchester Knights never actually played a game in Manchester but the RFL made them change their name from Tameside Borough for propaganda purposes (they ended up spending most of their existence under this name playing in Oldham).

I don't see any call for a pro side (other than perhaps Championship 1) but I'd hope a 400,000 population city can get more than one amateur club in the future, but it has to be viewed as an expansion area not a heartland. Mancunians run 2 sides and have moved up 2 years on the bounce so there's clearly potential.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

That map put Alty in Trafford. Enough said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altrincham
Altrincham (pronounced /ˈɒltrɪŋɡəm/ ( listen), OL-tring-gəm) is a market town within the Metropolitan Borough of Trafford, in Greater Manchester, England.

And if Wikipedia isn't a good enough source, here's a snippet from the town's official page:
http://www.altrincham.org.uk/Area.asp
"Altrincham is a great place to live, work, invest, shop and enjoy varied leisure activities. As Trafford’s largest town with an historic Charter Market, Altrincham is well known for a wide variety of high quality specialist and contemporary high street retailers, a well established market and good office accommodation, providing quality modern services in a heritage setting."

Not really any reason for them to lie about it, is there?

Clearly you're knowledge of local geography isn't as good as you thought it was.

Just please stop it now, the 'United is not in Manchester' debate is boring.

It's not a debate. It's a fact.
It only becomes boring when people try to tell you that a fact isn't a fact, despite it being there for all to see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Trafford
"Old Trafford is an all-seater football stadium in the Trafford borough of Greater Manchester, England, and the home of Premier League club Manchester United."

Although Man Utd list Old Trafford as being in Manchester (of course they would!), if you type in on Google Maps: Sir Matt Busby Way, United Road, they both list Trafford.

It's not really difficult to believe that a place called Old Trafford could be in a place called Trafford, is it? And it's not difficult to believe that a team called Manchester play in a plce just outside Manchester, is it?

Hull City might be moving to Melton, East Riding. That doesn't mean Melton is in Hull.

As for the thread: In the city slums of manchester, neither code is played all that much. Its a football city.

Exactly. But your friend seems to be struggling with this point.

Its surrounded however by towns which all play League and a lot of people in these towns live or work in the city. Yes there is a Union team, (2 actually as Orrell were a famous team before they collapsed), but the numbers supporting them do not match up to League.

Therefore on any given day the sport of Rugby league is bigger in the city. This is because people move around. Drive into Manc any morning and sit in the carpark that was once a motorway.

There may be people that travel from Manchester to somewhere out of Manchester to watch the game. I don't dispute that at all, I find it pretty reasonable. But RL therefore still isn't that big IN Manchester if that's the case (if people are going OUT of Manchester).

There are more RU clubs IN Manchester and more RU players IN Manchester than RL players. There is no pro RL or RU IN Manchester to count crowds for.

So to answer the thread question, the reason a team would not work there is these said people already support a different team, be it Salford, Wigan, Warrington, Widnes, Leigh, St Helens, Oldham, Rochdale, etc. you get the point. Meaning the support for an expansion team into the city would struggle to find new support especially as people of Longsight, Hulme, Ardwick etc. really don't want to know. IMO of course.

There probably are a fair few RL fans in Manchester, but I'd hardly say there is a significant number. The further you move from a catchment area, the less fans you tend to find will travel. Look at Saints at Widnes as an example (and they're a HUGE club).

It would be like moving a brand new football team into the city, everyone who gives a monkeys there already supports someone else so the crowds would be low.

But RL has been around the north since 1895. How come a club didn't spring up then (or before then when it was RU)? How come one hadn't sprung up between now and then for a sustained period of time and developed? Everyone wasn't supporting a team then?

And, going on the numbers of spectators at the Lancashire clubs close to Manchester, I'd hardly say there are many there that give a monkeys if you look at the population of Manchester. The idea is to get those that don't give a monkeys and don't have club affiliation (there are far more that don't than do) to be interested in a club actually IN Manchester. The closer you have a club to them, the more likely they are to support them. It's called "Central Placement Theory".

Its not a new sport to the city. Where as expansion into North Wales, the Midlands, Milton Keynes etc. is a new sport in the region so there may be potential to find a fan base.

At professional level, it would be a new sport. Just as new as North Wales.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

"There hasn't been a RL game played in Manchester at pro level since 2004" City of Manchester area only yes, but not Manchester as a region. Salford is part of the Manchester metro region. Times are changing.

That is the area I was talking about.

If we're talking the Metro area, then the biggest club in the area is a RU club (Sale). You'd probably find more RL clubs in the area though (haven't checked, but would assume that is the case).

The point is, that an area the size of Manchester that is smack bang in the middle of the heartlands should be targeted more. There is very little going on there compared to West Yorkshire, East Yorkshire and and group of 4 adjacent boroughs in Central Lancashire (i.e. St Helens, Halton, Warrington, Wigan).

Ignoring the whole RU thing (is it really relavant anyway?), Wigan borough aside, Greater Manchester doesn't have much RL going on for it at pro level. Salford are struggling (but hopefully this will change with the new stadium), Swinton have been in the doldrums for a while and lack a place to really call home, and Oldham and Rochdale have had massive financial problems over the years (Oldham have only just scraped together a new ground). Out of the 9 remaining boroughs, pro club RL is only played in 3 (Salford, Oldham and Rochdale). This is an area between two of our strongest areas that has a population of over 2m people and is a massive media hub.