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Explain - No Manchester Super League ?

WireMan

Bench
Messages
4,479
Warrington played Wigan at Maine road in front of a big crowd. That drop goal dammit.

Also to be fair you can't discount Wigan (closer to Liverpool? don't know about that.) But then have Sale.

Sale was never in Manchester, and they play now in Stockport, which is part of Cheshire so other than an international at OT against the all blacks then there are zero union crowds in Manchester.

League fans in Manchester more than likely grew up in Salford, Oldham, Wigan, Warrington etc. but given the amount of people that live or work in Manchester from the surrounding areas there may be a sizeable minority there.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
They have more RU clubs in Manchester than RL clubs, though the largest one Manchester RU are in freefall, not long ago they were 2nd tier but pretty much finished. Sale's not Manchester, nor's Stockport, but nor's Salford and all 3 are 'Greater Manchester'. Guess it all comes down to where you draw the boundaries as in the city itself RU is small but not nearly so small as RL, whereas if you go by Greater Manchester obviously Wigan wins it for RL.
 

Wellsy4HullFC

Juniors
Messages
178
Warrington played Wigan at Maine road in front of a big crowd. That drop goal dammit.

Also to be fair you can't discount Wigan (closer to Liverpool? don't know about that.) But then have Sale.

Sale was never in Manchester, and they play now in Stockport, which is part of Cheshire so other than an international at OT against the all blacks then there are zero union crowds in Manchester.

League fans in Manchester more than likely grew up in Salford, Oldham, Wigan, Warrington etc. but given the amount of people that live or work in Manchester from the surrounding areas there may be a sizeable minority there.

Wigan is about 1 mile closer to Liverpool than Manchester.

And Stockport isn't in Cheshire, it's in Greater Manchester.
 

Wellsy4HullFC

Juniors
Messages
178
In all honesty, I think it would have made a lot more sense back when they re-did the boundaries in 1974 to have named what is Greater Manchester "East Lancashire", Merseyside "West Lancashire" and what is currently Lancashire as "North Lancashire". Would have made a lot more sense.

Barrow being lost to the newly-formed Cumbria (from Westmorland and Cumberland), Warrington and Halton to Cheshire and Stockport to East Lancashire would have been the only differences to traditional Lancashire then, and people could still have had their county pride then and it have made more sense.

Mind you, since the meaning of the word "county" has also changed (with East Lancs, North Lancs and West Lancs affectively being their own counties in this instance), I'd have made Lancashire it's own government region (like Yorkshire), and joined Cumbria up with the North East to form the Far North region of England. The North East only has a 2.5m population (smallest region in England). North West has 6.8m (largest outside London)! They could do with the extra 0.5m!

It all makes a lot more sense to me! Lancashire would be back, and it would stop all this confusion about what actually is Manchester!
 
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Wellsy4HullFC

Juniors
Messages
178
newregions.jpg


There ya go.

No more "Greater Manchester".
Lancashire returns officially.
Everybody is happy!

Although I've lost Cheshire! Some people might not be happy about that! It's been absorbed by Lancashire!
 

manoj p

Juniors
Messages
744
What big Manchester crowds are they? Apart from obviously Old Trafford there's been no pro RL in Manchester since the mid-50s. If you're trying to claim Wigan well it's about 25 miles away and nearer Liverpool. Out of clubs nearer Manchester than that then Sale are best supported.

Yes. Strangely enough the Super League Final and the Championship Finals played in Manchester do count as rugby league crowds in Manchester.

As do Tests at for instance Swinton and elsewhere.
 
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bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
Old Trafford's in Trafford not Manchester.

But anyway it's stupid to class the crowd at a final as indicative of the popularity of RL in the area. We don't say there's 80000 RL spectators in London because of the Challenge Cup.
 

manoj p

Juniors
Messages
744
The real issue is whether union or rugby league has a greater presence in Manchester.

Only the most deluded would suggest union is the answer. lol

Is that you?
 

VictoryFC

Bench
Messages
3,786
Old Trafford's in Trafford not Manchester.

But anyway it's stupid to class the crowd at a final as indicative of the popularity of RL in the area. We don't say there's 80000 RL spectators in London because of the Challenge Cup.

Then what is Manchester? The city centre? What does that make Sydney? Saying Trafford isn't in Manchester is being pedantic beyond a reasonable point.
 

manoj p

Juniors
Messages
744
He is going well.

Apparently rugby union is bigger in Manchester than rugby league. Should make a nice thesis.

lol
 

WireMan

Bench
Messages
4,479
Wigan is about 1 mile closer to Liverpool than Manchester.

And Stockport isn't in Cheshire, it's in Greater Manchester.

Not having Wigan closer to Liverpool than Manchester. Doesn't matter though, point is for a Union vs League debate there all in Manc or none of them are.

newregions.jpg


There ya go.

No more "Greater Manchester".
Lancashire returns officially.
Everybody is happy!

Although I've lost Cheshire! Some people might not be happy about that! It's been absorbed by Lancashire!

Cheshire is still there, it starts at the top of Wales and goes down the border. It looks on that map that South Lancs is to big. The Boundary at the south seems to follow the Ship Canal, which was the old school boundary before Merseyside and Gtr Manc were invented.

If the regions were like that, you would have Warrington as the capital of South Lancashire, as the biggest neutral venue. Neither Liverpool or Manchester would agree to the other one being in charge. It would be like the Canberra of the North!! But i digress.
 

bowes

Juniors
Messages
1,320
When the Normans created the counties up north there were only three: Cheshire, Yorkshire and Northumberland

Lancashire south of the Ribble was Cheshire, Lancashire north of the Ribble was Yorkshire. The southern part of what's now Cumbria was Yorkshire, the north was then part of Scotland. Durham was part of Northumberland as well.
 

Wellsy4HullFC

Juniors
Messages
178
Yes. Strangely enough the Super League Final and the Championship Finals played in Manchester do count as rugby league crowds in Manchester.

As do Tests at for instance Swinton and elsewhere.

So how come when we all argue about how well RL is doing in London nobody quotes the Challenge Cup final?

The attendance at one of the biggest games of the season between two clubs (none of which are from or usually from that area) in a final of a competition is no indication of the strength of the game in that area.
 

Wellsy4HullFC

Juniors
Messages
178
Old Trafford's in Trafford not Manchester.

But anyway it's stupid to class the crowd at a final as indicative of the popularity of RL in the area. We don't say there's 80000 RL spectators in London because of the Challenge Cup.

Just read this after my previous post.

Totally agree, and good use of the technicality on Trafford ;)

You cannot use the a crowd at a final as some kind of determinant for how strong the game is. Very few of the people in those crowds will have been from Manchester. Nobody says NFL is doing well over here because of one game at Wembley. It's an incredibly weak argument for anyone to use this crowd (especially since Trafford is not in Manchester).
 

Wellsy4HullFC

Juniors
Messages
178
Then what is Manchester? The city centre? What does that make Sydney? Saying Trafford isn't in Manchester is being pedantic beyond a reasonable point.

It's not pedantic at all. It is fact. Saying Trafford is in Manchester is like saying Salford is, or Stockport is, or Oldham. They are in Greater Manchester, but not in the City of Manchester.

Below is a map of the 10 boroughs of Greater Manchester. Notice that Trafford is NOT in Manchester.

800px-Greater_Manchester_County_%283%29.png
 

Wellsy4HullFC

Juniors
Messages
178
The real issue is whether union or rugby league has a greater presence in Manchester.

Only the most deluded would suggest union is the answer. lol

Is that you?

Only the most deluded would suggest that rugby league has much presence in Manchester. Whether rugby union is or isn't is not an issue as far as I'm concerned.
 

Wellsy4HullFC

Juniors
Messages
178
Not having Wigan closer to Liverpool than Manchester. Doesn't matter though, point is for a Union vs League debate there all in Manc or none of them are.
Check Google Maps. Easiest way to solve an argument there. It has Liverpool being closer, but only just. Not that it's really important.

If you're talking about which sport has the most presence in Manchester (the city itself) then neither sport has much presence at all. It's not really worth arguing as their is such little presence from both.
If we're talking the immediate surroundings, then union probably has more, as Sale are a bigger club than Salford at this time and get more coverage.
If we're talking Greater Manchester, Wigan dwarf all.

That's it in a nutshell, really.

Cheshire is still there, it starts at the top of Wales and goes down the border. It looks on that map that South Lancs is to big. The Boundary at the south seems to follow the Ship Canal, which was the old school boundary before Merseyside and Gtr Manc were invented.

If the regions were like that, you would have Warrington as the capital of South Lancashire, as the biggest neutral venue. Neither Liverpool or Manchester would agree to the other one being in charge. It would be like the Canberra of the North!! But i digress.
On that map, the county labelled South (Lancashire) is the exact borders of the current county of Cheshire. I have not altered any county boundaries on there, just renamed them, and altered which counties are in which regions (Cumbria being moved to join the North East to form the Far North).

Currently, the Administrative HQ of Cheshire is in Chester, and I would assume it would stay that way should it be renamed South Lancashire.
Manchester is the Administrative HQ for the region that is the North West of England, so it would also stay that way.

Should Cheshire not want to be part of the Lancashire region, it could always join the West Midlands region instead, and give up Warrington and Halton back to Lancashire. You could then take the boroughs of Wigan & Bolton (Grt. Manchester), St Helens (Merseyside), Warrington & Halton (Cheshire) and West Lancs, Chorley, Blackburn & South Ribble (Lancashire) and create the county of "Central Lancashire".

That would leave a Greater Manchester region that actually more closely represents Manchester, a Liverpool region that more closely resembles Liverpool, leaves Cheshire as an independent county in a separate region, but then pretty much re-informs the fact that RL's strength is Lancashire is only in one small area in the centre!

newcounties.jpg

White = Yorkshire Region
Royal Blue = Far North Region (North East region + Cumbria)
Green = West Midlands Region, now including Cheshire (light green = Cheshire without Warrington & Halton boroughs)
Red = West Lancashire (Merseyside without St Helens borough)
Sky Blue = East Lancashire (Grt. Manchester without Bolton & Wigan boroughs)
Maroon = North Lancashire (Lancashire without West Lancs, Chorley, Blackburn & South Ribble boroughs)
Orange = Central Lancashire (new county of St Helens, Halton, Warrington, Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn, Chorley, South Ribble and West Central Lancs. boroughs)


Well... it looks a lot tidier and makes a lot more sense to me than the current way they've done things, anyway! Better than the current way:

newcounties2.jpg

White = Yorkshire Region
Royal Blue = North East Region
Light Green = Cheshire (county)
Black = Cumbria (county)
Red = Merseyside (county)
Sky Blue = Greater Manchester (county)
Maroon = Lancashire (county)
Light Green, Black, Red, Sky Blue, Maroon = North West Region
 
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