F.O Andrew Webster

[Matua]

I don’t think you can discount socio-economics that flippantly. It’s the most significant determiner of future success.

I'm not discounting it flippantly. Penrith pull from one of the lowest socio-economic areas in Oz. It's not the most significant determiner of a pro sports team's future success.

The player demographics in rugby and league are similar-ish but the sports have markedly different cultural/class backgrounds. Look at the first 15 competition for example.

I'd say the majority of the Warriors NZ players would have been part of first 15 programmes. Also, the class backgrounds aren't markedly different.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I understand these are contentious views. Setting aside further extrapolations of my culture argument, the upshot of my thesis is that key to the Warriors success is a more productive economy.

 

[sup42]

I have no doubt that there is a grain of truth in this in that the Melbourne culture has got the most out of him. As a pedant though I do feel compelled to point out that Katoa wasn't a New Zealander in the first place (only moved to NZ at 17 and left at 20) and his entire NRL career has been based in Australia - so at no point in his NRL career was he actually at home in NZ or in a position to be enjoying home comforts.

Interesting take about allegiances for pure Tongan players in a NZ system (pure Tongan is hyperbole from me for Island kids with no connection to Australia or NZ).
There is an assumption on the part of Kiwis that P.I. imports will have loyalty to NZ because we are the Polynesian capital of the world.

Contrast that with the reality that many Tongan fans were Wallaby fans over the All Blacks thanks to stars like Willie Ofahengaue, Tautai Kefu, and Israel Falau.

 

[sup42]

We lost last night because Ali and MGT got carved up by targeted set plays to specifically attack our Centers.

As I have said in other threads, this is why Webster in the past has only given these kids sporadic appearances and dropped them out of NRL even when they have a good game.

There is is clear coaching plan to protect them from the kind of exposure and negative attention that being exposed brings, and ruins young Careers.

First of all, as I said in other threads, the Eels tip sheet had attack the kids at center as their main plan for that game.

The moves the Eels used were nice, isolating MGT and Ali.

We should have anticipated that. We should have had a plan to protect those two as best we could.

Admittedly it is very difficult to cover two centers with extra attention by a fullback and your backrowers to protect them, it is a step too far in truth since all Rugby league teams ordinarily rely on their centers being the strong points in the defence rather than what we saw where they added two new weak spots in our line.

Let me be clear about that in saying that MGT and Ali are the future stars of the Warriors despite their epic fail last night.
Those boys got done badly because they faced set up plays by the Eels that they have never seen in the NSW cup. Add to that Ali got caught out by a one on one Dummy half attack on our Try line.

If Webster could use a time machine to play that game over again, he would have altered our defensive structures to defend our centers. Setting your defence to defend a center is a strange position to be in since those Centers are meant to be the defensive strong points in a team.

But I know in me heart of hearts that like me, Webster would have been caught out by seeing our Centers ripped apart when those two have been earnest tacklers in all their (albeit few appearances).

CNK is partly to blame, while he cannot assist both edges, he should have picked a side (probably Moala Graham Taufas edge) and shore up one side.

Had CNK picked a side and a center, and locked down one half of our field, given the Eels won by attacking both sides, would have halved the Eels score....meaning we probably have a chance of winning.

The same blame lands on our Backrowers, they two were there a magic time machine would have adjusted their games to lock in and protect Ali and Moala.

Further more our Wing men carry their own debt of responsibility in tightening the outsides of those Child Centers and protect them.

So in defense of Webster is he had the confidence going into this game that our kid centers hold the line, and are good defenders (because before last night they were solid defenders) therefore he never expected they could be the reason we lose the game.
The criticism of Webster is that after the centers were exposed, the players did not adjust to at least make one edge strong defensively halving the Eels options.

What I would like to see from here now that we are in a rebuild is that those two exposed NSW cup centers get a run in every game from here. I want us to lean into their weakness and give them more exposure even though that will see more losses.

The reason is that the defensive fails by our green centers were the same problems Rocco Berry faced as a noob, there was a time where everyone hated Rocco because of his missed tackles and handling errors, yet he became a cult figure because Webster stuck with him.

What I am saying is it is time to play our cup stars, get flogged, but expose those guys to Apex training and prep and more importantly NRL game time.

Watching Ali and MGT pass balls for try assists demands we soak up their defensive ills to harden them off in the NRL with the one thing they are missing, NRL experience.

For mine they are still stars, they are still the future, the club just needs to ignore week on week thinking and invest in the long term by backing these guys and grinning and bearing it.

I might sound like a cheerleader for the young'uns at the Warriors but any other club in the NRL makes game plans to protect your Sam Walkers and Reece Walsh's knowing those kids have no road miles in the grinding defence of an NRL game. Those names get assigned body guards, it is unfortunate that we are needing body guards for two positions that are meant to be body guards as centers in our team.

 

[Big Marn]

Sorry, i dont think you can use age as an excuse for the centers. MGT is 22. Ali is 21.
The centers for Eels: Blaze Tualagi is 19, Viliami Penisini is 22.
Maybe reframe as being rookies that need more game time?

If Ali didnt get injured every 5 minutes, maybe he would have been more seasoned by now.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

If the worst coach in NRL history in Barrett has outcoached Webster, that’s pretty dire for Webster

 

[Matua]

I understand these are contentious views. Setting aside further extrapolations of my culture argument, the upshot of my thesis is that key to the Warriors success is a more productive economy.

They're only contentious in that I think they're wrong, and nothing you have posted so far has convinced me otherwise.

 

[Alan Johnson]

They're only contentious in that I think they're wrong, and nothing you have posted so far has convinced me otherwise.

Would you say that the culture from which the Warriors come is more or less the same as that of the average Australian NRL team, or are there significant differences?

 

[Alan Johnson]

I guess what I'm getting at is I don't know if 30 years of underachievement can be waved away as poor coaching and boardroom incompetence. I think it's worth contemplating if there's a bigger picture.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

A little related, how long can Kevin Walters keep his job, yeah they made a GF, but that aside his tenure has been a cluster f**k

Has protection in the media, was embarrassing during the week watching Tallis throw Adam Reynolds under the bus to protect Kev

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I guess what I'm getting at is I don't know if 30 years of underachievement can be waved away as poor coaching and boardroom incompetence. I think it's worth contemplating if there's a bigger picture.

I think you have a point but you’re looking in the wrong place. It’s not the socioeconomic background of the players that’s the issue, it’s more the socioeconomic status of the club game itself.
Rugby union doesn’t have that issue because the game’s infrastructure is well funded and professional. League (below the Warriors) is still amateur and run on sfa $$.

 

[JJ]

I guess what I'm getting at is I don't know if 30 years of underachievement can be waved away as poor coaching and boardroom incompetence. I think it's worth contemplating if there's a bigger picture.

Has it really been under achievement? Couple of grand finals, never once have I looked at a squad and thought “yeah we’ve got to go close”, lot of media beat up and overrating local talent and focusing on highlights rather than the little things that really count?

 

[JJ]

Has protection in the media, was embarrassing during the week watching Tallis throw Adam Reynolds under the bus to protect Kev

They look as bad as us… but have much more talent. Great to watch, now if Manly do similar I’ll be content

 

[Beavers Headgear]

They look as bad as us… but have much more talent. Great to watch, now if Manly do similar I’ll be content

You might have to wait a month or so for that

 

[Blair]

Would you say that the culture from which the Warriors come is more or less the same as that of the average Australian NRL team, or are there significant differences?

Penrith, Kingswood, Doonside, Werrington, St Marys and Mt Druitt are as rough as guts. That's the Penrith Panthers catchment as per the train stations I know so well.

You can be on edge the whole way through and I've never felt that way in South Auckland, which is no picnic either.

 

[Matua]

Would you say that the culture from which the Warriors come is more or less the same as that of the average Australian NRL team, or are there significant differences?

It's different in that it's a NZ team across an ocean away, but not that different from a socio-economic influence standpoint. See Penrith discussed above.

I guess what I'm getting at is I don't know if 30 years of underachievement can be waved away as poor coaching and boardroom incompetence. I think it's worth contemplating if there's a bigger picture.

Why not? We know that there has been poor coaching, management, and boardroom incompetence throughout the entire existence of the team. That would contribute more to the underachievement than the number of players who make the team who may grow up in South Auckland.

 

[mikeob]

I think the fundamental problem the Warriors have is cultural. Not the team culture, but the wider culture the club exists within. I’m talking about the differences in the respective cultures of the rugby league heartlands in Australia and New Zealand. More specifically, the differences that exist between the working classes of the respective countries (and various cultural traits more broadly). The Australian working class has a confidence, cockiness and optimism that doesn’t exist to the same extent in the NZ working class, particularly in the Warriors’ home of South Auckland where economic hardship abounds and where it would be reasonable to assume there is much disenfranchisement. In my view these differences are reflected on the field across the Warriors’ now quite long and perenially frustrating history. This is not meant as a criticism or to denigrate a section of the community, but to try to make sense of the patterns we see in the Warriors year after year.

I agree with you and I would add one more thing. By the time the kids are 12 in Australia the best of them are being guided through a professional pathway and the family receive assistance from their club and the family and the kids learn about being a professional along the way. The community understands professional sport and it is rugby league heartland. In NZ the community is starting to learn about professional sport. Auckland is certainly not rugby league heartland yet and rugby league as a professional sport in NZ cannot learn anything from rugby union. The original owners of the Warriors, the NZRL had a great opportunity to do what the Warriors have done this season and have teams from Harold Matthews Cup and upwards but they did nothing. A great opportunity was lost in1995 and it seems to have taken 29 years with different Warriors ownership and management for them to wake up that this is what is required. Next thing that needs to happen is the 1st X111 High School competition Cameron George talked about several weeks ago. That is a must.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I agree with you and I would add one more thing. By the time the kids are 12 in Australia the best of them are being guided through a professional pathway and the family receive assistance from their club and the family and the kids learn about being a professional along the way. The community understands professional sport and it is rugby league heartland. In NZ the community is starting to learn about professional sport. Auckland is certainly not rugby league heartland yet and rugby league as a professional sport in NZ cannot learn anything from rugby union. The original owners of the Warriors, the NZRL had a great opportunity to do what the Warriors have done this season and have teams from Harold Matthews Cup and upwards but they did nothing. A great opportunity was lost in1995 and it seems to have taken 29 years with different Warriors ownership and management for them to wake up that this is what is required. Next thing that needs to happen is the 1st X111 High School competition Cameron George talked about several weeks ago. That is a must.

I know nothing about the high school league competition but it stands to reason it should be resourced appropriately. Obviously the Warriors and NZRL have a vested interest and I’m sure they’d love the high school game to flourish. As ever, where the money comes from is the question. I can’t imagine the NZRL has much spare cash so the responsibility must fall to the Warriors.

The bigger picture here is that there needs to be more funding for education in general. Everything will improve if we do that.

On a side note, I work for TVNZ which is currently transitioning into a digital-first operation, meaning it will have an increasingly voracious appetite for content. Especially cheap content. There could be an opportunity for high school/grass roots league there. I might look into it.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I'm sorry, but as I said in the matchday thread, I think SJ needs moving on.

(Yeah, I actually said "Biden" him)

The message needs to be "Hey, we love you & respect all you've given, but we can't justify you being there anymore, the future is someone else's"

SJ beat Medicare to death

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I hope so. His constant "free pass" into the starting lineup has impaired other, younger, healthier & frankly (on current form) BETTER halves careers.

With SJ moved along we can coherently build for the next few years.

Shame he didn't hang up the boots last year. Would have been a nice way to end his playing story