F.O Andrew Webster

[JJ]

Shame he didn't hang up the boots last year. Would have been a nice way to end his playing story

I agree. The big thing now is we’re in purgatory while he’s here, he’s too old and unsound to build around, and not good enough (nor is the squad imo) to win now. So we need to move on, I think

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Are the Broncos experiencing the same thing with Reynolds? He's barely been on the field all year and they're going to miss the 8.

 

[JJ]

Are the Broncos experiencing the same thing with Reynolds? He's barely been on the field all year and they're going to miss the 8.

The have a lot more talent, made last years GF, and imo he’s the 7 they need.. but yeah, similar arguments, but last year probably a key pt. DCE keeps rolling though..

 

[Big Marn]

Used to loath DCE. How many times he f**ked us in golden point. But i have to respect him now. He keeps turning up year after year.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Used to loath DCE. How many times he f**ked us in golden point. But i have to respect him now. He keeps turning up year after year.

I saw someone on here say the 10-year deal was a failure, given Manly haven't won a premiership during that time. But I reckon it's a roaring success, one of the rare ones with contracts that long. DCE is still going strong as hell at 35.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Shame he didn't hang up the boots last year. Would have been a nice way to end his playing story

Yeah...but how would you hang the boots up off the back of a year where you could've/should've been the Dally M winner, and your club was on a high and one game off the GF. That was never happening, with all due respect there's no way you can say it's a shame he didn't. There would have been widespread condemnation of any decision like that.

Sometimes old lady time hits you like a tonne of bricks with immediate effect, sometimes she lets you down gently over time. With SJ, and owing to the Achilles injury probably in the main part, it's hit him quick. But there's been other factors - sub-par game plan, struggles across the park, Metcalf getting injured, hasn't been able to gel with TMM, so on.

 

[sup42]

I think the fundamental problem the Warriors have is cultural. Not the team culture, but the wider culture the club exists within. I’m talking about the differences in the respective cultures of the rugby league heartlands in Australia and New Zealand. More specifically, the differences that exist between the working classes of the respective countries (and various cultural traits more broadly). The Australian working class has a confidence, cockiness and optimism that doesn’t exist to the same extent in the NZ working class, particularly in the Warriors’ home of South Auckland where economic hardship abounds and where it would be reasonable to assume there is much disenfranchisement. In my view these differences are reflected on the field across the Warriors’ now quite long and perenially frustrating history. This is not meant as a criticism or to denigrate a section of the community, but to try to make sense of the patterns we see in the Warriors year after year.

This is a complicated and sensitive issue which there are no hard truths or facts, only opinions and peoples gut sense drives these arguments.

The Browning of the Rugby codes is a fact backed up by representation at the highest levels and in Ruby league it has seen tiny Island nations roll out athletes who have gone on to set new records in League including Tonga going from seventy point hidings to NZ to defeating the Kiwis and the Kangaroos.

The problems at the Warriors have nothing to do with demographics, they have nothing to do with race or class.

The issue for the Warriors is that their selection pool locally is inferior by virtue of multiple challenges in a dying sport.
The Warriors by concentrating on the Auckland pool have restricted themselves to less varied players than the other NRL clubs who cherry pick footballers nation wide. Take the Storm, they concentrate heavily on the rest of NZ ex Auckland and take the best of the rest, a market that the Warriors should have been competing in, but decided for reasons of convenience to concentrate on the traditional Auckland Schools system which by happenstance meant more big Island kids vs other groups. Those kids demographic realities have nothing to do with performance and are not an indicator of future success, the issue is more nuanced than that.

The Warriors scouts are almost exclusively based in Auckland, whereas the Storm for example have a strong network through Stephen Kearney from the Waikato, across to the Hawkesbay and down to Wellington where the Storm Scouting is really strong.

The problem with Auckland Scouts is that they concentrate on Athletes rather than footballers, so they have this syndrome where they are constantly looking for the big signing score by uncovering the next Manu Vatuvei, while the other NRL scouts hunt NZ for footballers, they are looking for the next Stephen Kearney, the next Isaac Luke...people that are not built like the Terminator, people who are rugged and skilled with drive...in other words Footballers over Athletes.

The Warriors have had the wrong selection model, a hang over from the John Akland sides that ran over the top of smaller players to win reserve grade NRL titles.

Working class footballers are Rugby league, they are what this sport was born of.

The Warriors just need to keep looking wider than their failed Athlete model and they are doing that.

The Warriors Juniors below NSW cup are truly exciting, populated by South Islanders, who won the schools comp....evidence that Cappy gets the issues and as recruitment manager is loading our club with footballers who are not uniformly huge or fast tackle busting P.I players exclusively.

Rather we see a mix now, Pakeha, Maori, Pacific Island heritage players more representative of the Kiwis across the NRL who come together in the black Jersey and generally outperform the Warriors by virtue of actually winning competitions against the best players in the world.

Balance is the key, footballers over athletes is the recipe.

We needed to move away from any big, faster, stronger kid will do, (and we are under McFadden) to aiming at the most teachable kids first which ideally includes some of these genetically enhanced big humans that get bad press.

Mcfadden has changed our recruitment signing lanscape radically, from signing Aussie trained kids, to signing South Island School boys champions, we are definitely headed in a different direction.

Add to that the Penrith cast offs we are inheriting like Jett Cleary because of the Webster connection. We are also signing Ünion stars and Union discards (ergo Pasikala a Rugby perfomer vs Toby Crosby a Hurricanes discard).

We have long since abandoned the old South Auckland chestnut under Mcfadden without ignoring what South Auckland has to offer. Case and Point Rodney Tuipulotu Vea a South Aukland`product who made his name during Covid and through an ankle Injury as a serious off field trainer, watch the name he will be a future Warrior that few are aware of. He has Simon Mannering vibes.

 

[mikeob]

I know nothing about the high school league competition but it stands to reason it should be resourced appropriately. Obviously the Warriors and NZRL have a vested interest and I’m sure they’d love the high school game to flourish. As ever, where the money comes from is the question. I can’t imagine the NZRL has much spare cash so the responsibility must fall to the Warriors.

The bigger picture here is that there needs to be more funding for education in general. Everything will improve if we do that.

On a side note, I work for TVNZ which is currently transitioning into a digital-first operation, meaning it will have an increasingly voracious appetite for content. Especially cheap content. There could be an opportunity for high school/grass roots league there. I might look into it.

The ARL Commission had a meeting in Melbourne prior to SoO 2 in June and according to a headline I saw prior the Commission was going to be discussing a high school competition in NZ. I didn't read the article (Daily Telegraph paywall). Nothing in the media afterwards but that's not unusual for a Commission meeting. With the NRL behind it funding will not be a problem and I have seen Abdo saying several times that NZ and Pacific Islands are very important to the NRL. Maybe you can find out something through media contacts. I think the Cameron George article talking a 1st X111 competition was on Stuff but I can't find it.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I think you have a point but you’re looking in the wrong place. It’s not the socioeconomic background of the players that’s the issue, it’s more the socioeconomic status of the club game itself.
Rugby union doesn’t have that issue because the game’s infrastructure is well funded and professional. League (below the Warriors) is still amateur and run on sfa $$.

Nah, to me it isn't the background of the players. It's the structures in this country. Look at coaching, for example. There hasn't been a single Kiwi premiership winning coach, and no one's even gone close. The quality of coaching at all levels is so far inferior to Australia, it's nuts. In Sydney, they are setting up players to be NRL talent. They come through that system, they play tough, hard footy, they're coached probably in systems that resemble the ranks as they go up, these coaches are knowledgeable, by the time they get into ressies and FG these guys know exactly what to do.

Compare that to an NZ kid, who has either come through union or a schools/club competition where the standard is poor, the coaching is rank amateur and they have to learn on the fly when they are put into the Warriors system. We've seen SO many first-graders like that, and we still are. I think of people like Sam Lousi, who dominated all the way through when he was in age-grade, but when he wasn't physically dominant anymore, had no other assets.

As others said, socio-economics doesn't deter Penrith, nor does it need to do South Auckland.

Plus, our club has been run piss poorly for so long...it does feel like our pathway structures are better, and we're developing better players. I don't think it'll ever even the playing field, because those structures in Australia are always going to be better resourced, coached etc. Union is always going to be the thing here. But I think we get to a point where we can hope to build a competitive FG side at times, and get close to winning one if a bit of luck strikes us

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Penrith, Kingswood, Doonside, Werrington, St Marys and Mt Druitt are as rough as guts. That's the Penrith Panthers catchment as per the train stations I know so well.

You can be on edge the whole way through and I've never felt that way in South Auckland, which is no picnic either.

And yet I went to St Mary's Leagues 20 years ago and they had the most impressive facilities I'd ever seen.

We're probably all arguing at cross purposes here...it's correct that rugby league thrives in working class (at best) area in Australia, but it's also true that these ostensibly rough areas have investment in rugby league that you couldn't comprehend in NZ. St Mary's might be a bit like Otara but I can guarantee you the Scorpions aren't getting a St Mary's Leagues Club any time soon.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

The player demographics in rugby and league are similar-ish but the sports have markedly different cultural/class backgrounds. Look at the first 15 competition for example.

I don't understand those who insist the sports have the same demographic/culture either. They clearly don't. There's more to it than just "most of the top players are brown and from humble backgrounds".

 

[Philip_Smith007]

Nah, to me it isn't the background of the players. It's the structures in this country. Look at coaching, for example. There hasn't been a single Kiwi premiership winning coach, and no one's even gone close. The quality of coaching at all levels is so far inferior to Australia, it's nuts. In Sydney, they are setting up players to be NRL talent. They come through that system, they play tough, hard footy, they're coached probably in systems that resemble the ranks as they go up, these coaches are knowledgeable, by the time they get into ressies and FG these guys know exactly what to do.

Compare that to an NZ kid, who has either come through union or a schools/club competition where the standard is poor, the coaching is rank amateur and they have to learn on the fly when they are put into the Warriors system. We've seen SO many first-graders like that, and we still are. I think of people like Sam Lousi, who dominated all the way through when he was in age-grade, but when he wasn't physically dominant anymore, had no other assets.

As others said, socio-economics doesn't deter Penrith, nor does it need to do South Auckland.

Plus, our club has been run piss poorly for so long...it does feel like our pathway structures are better, and we're developing better players. I don't think it'll ever even the playing field, because those structures in Australia are always going to be better resourced, coached etc. Union is always going to be the thing here. But I think we get to a point where we can hope to build a competitive FG side at times, and get close to winning one if a bit of luck strikes us

The best talent trained by the best talent.
Simple.
Same reason Aussie competes so well at swimming vs countries 10× the size.
Why the All Black punch well above their weight for the size of the country.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I've almost come full circle and am starting to feel sorry for Webster. This has just been the most cursed season. People will look back on 2024 and think we were terrible when really we are absolutely a top 8 side this year without losing games we "deserved" to win, CHT's kicking (whether or not you think it's fair to assign blame, that's 6 competition points we should've had) and a shocking injury toll.

When I say we're a top 8 side I'm not saying we're good either. There are so many ordinary teams in and around the 8 this year, many of whom we've pretty clearly outplayed while not being at our best ourselves. Truth is we've just bottled it in the clutch moments again and again.

This brings me back to my underlying question about Webster, and it's a rhetorical question that I know is a bit stupid - is it possible for a coach to be culpable for repeated choking? Is it just a coincidence that this team repeatedly fails to turn "process" into 2 competition points? Yes there are numerous parts of "the process" you can fault too, but for all of our faults we keep putting ourselves in a winning position and losing.

If we're trying to learn from and fix our mistakes, then the most obvious and defining mistakes this season are as simple as "constantly finding ways to lose". How do you even go about fixing that? Because no matter how good we get, you can't be a top team in the NRL unless you're at least a little bit clutch. Not even the Panthers or the Storm are winning every game by 20.

 

[JJ]

I've almost come full circle and am starting to feel sorry for Webster. This has just been the most cursed season. People will look back on 2024 and think we were terrible when really we are absolutely a top 8 side this year without losing games we "deserved" to win, CHT's kicking (whether or not you think it's fair to assign blame, that's 6 competition points we should've had) and a shocking injury toll.

When I say we're a top 8 side I'm not saying we're good either. There are so many ordinary teams in and around the 8 this year, many of whom we've pretty clearly outplayed while not being at our best ourselves. Truth is we've just bottled it in the clutch moments again and again.

This brings me back to my underlying question about Webster, and it's a rhetorical question that I know is a bit stupid - is it possible for a coach to be culpable for repeated choking? Is it just a coincidence that this team repeatedly fails to turn "process" into 2 competition points? Yes there are numerous parts of "the process" you can fault too, but for all of our faults we keep putting ourselves in a winning position and losing.

If we're trying to learn from and fix our mistakes, then the most obvious and defining mistakes this season are as simple as "constantly finding ways to lose". How do you even go about fixing that? Because no matter how good we get, you can't be a top team in the NRL unless you're at least a little bit clutch. Not even the Panthers or the Storm are winning every game by 20.

I think that's a pretty fair summary - the reality is Penrith, Melbourne and maybe the Roosters are better than everyone else (in that order), the rest have their moments but are ordinary - and the Tigpies are horrible. Everyone's had injury issues, but we're at the worst end.

That said, Webster has persevered with Johnson when unfit and when the team has clearly looked better with TMM (who's fit) playing, he's the one that rolls out a team without someone who can kick goals (regardless of injuries that should have been prepared for), and while not everyone agrees, I still believe we're better with RTS at 1, despite CNK being good there too

 

[Meth]

I think there’s a lot of factors that aren’t Andrew Webster that have made life difficult for us this season. Also though, there’s a lot within his control that has turned out to be bad for us. So, it’s unfair for him to get all the blame, but he should take some of it.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I think there’s a lot of factors that aren’t Andrew Webster that have made life difficult for us this season. Also though, there’s a lot within his control that has turned out to be bad for us. So, it’s unfair for him to get all the blame, but he should take some of it.

I'm honestly trying (and probably failing) to convey more positivity about Webster/the team than I reckon most people are, just in a different way. I think we have actually been pretty good for much of this season, in light of injuries in particular.

Just the loss of Metcalf and SJ alone - I think most of us would have agreed that a Warriors side with TMM/CHT in the halves is bottom 4 material. The way we've performed with that line-up is honestly pretty close to miraculous - which is why a lot of the specific criticisms of Webster or the team seem a bit hollow to me. Yeah there are things we could've improved on, but look at the big picture and the overall level of performance with such key players missing has been really good, just paired with an elite level of shitting our pants when victory is in sight.

I also understand that having a weakened team contributes to poor performance in clutch moments, but I think this goes beyond that. You could pick a random club footy prop and if you give him enough goes he'd probably fluke a drop goal eventually. Hell, Sean O'Sullivan kicked a 40 metre field goal to beat us. Nah, I reckon our do-enough-to-win-and-lose-anyway levels have been off the charts this year.

I understand that it's more pragmatic to focus on things we could improve, rather than something ethereal like "we are playing fine but we are cursed and we have loser vibes" but legit the difference between this year being "heroic top 8 finish despite mass injuries" and "demoralising failure after false dawn of 2023" mostly comes down to being cursed and having loser vibes. I guess I'm just saying that rather than pretending to offer a solution.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I dunno why I'm hammering out essays in order to justify a position that is essentially superstition. I guess that's what 30 years of Wahs does to a man.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

As I always say, I love Andrew Webster and I'm not a knee-jerker - I didn't think he was the messiah last year, and I don't think he's a bad little boy this year. He would have learned significantly (I hope, anyway) during this year. I think there's a lot he'd look back and change.

I think for me, and probably others, the three-game run v Penrith, Phins and Cows (and the first half of the home Storm game) probably coloured the way we look at the season. We looked at those performances with significantly undermanned teams (Storm apart) and that was the standard we held them to for the year. And they didn't reach it again.

Injuries, no doubt caused major issues. Our combinations have been way off all year, but it is also worth pointing out that we mixed our side up without them, as well. The use of Roger has been a failure this year. TMM wasn't going to play on Sunday, then comes in and is our best player again. Our use of the bench has, to my untrained eye, been poor at times.

Even at full strength, we haven't looked like a top 8 team, much. How many times did we? The Bunnies and Cows away, at times in both Storm games (but not for long enough), then obviously the Penrith and Phins games gave us hope. But the rest were a mixture of awful hidings (Titans twice, Eels, Storm 2nd half at home, Dragons, Roosters) some other games we could/should have won, and even the losses against borderline 8 sides (Raiders, Broncos, Knights) were unconvincing.

I think 13th/14th is pretty much where we deserved to be this year. Even without injuries, I think 9th/10th was our high watermark.

We improve by having the beast and professional that is JFH next year, and some guys (Leaitaua, Sifakula, Halasima, Laban) will improve given more exposure. But there's still so many questions to be answered - around combinations, speed, goal kicker, spine quality, defensive frailties etc.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Even at full strength, we haven't looked like a top 8 team, much. How many times did we? The Bunnies and Cows away, at times in both Storm games (but not for long enough), then obviously the Penrith and Phins games gave us hope. But the rest were a mixture of awful hidings (Titans twice, Eels, Storm 2nd half at home, Dragons, Roosters) some other games we could/should have won, and even the losses against borderline 8 sides (Raiders, Broncos, Knights) were unconvincing.

I think 13th/14th is pretty much where we deserved to be this year. Even without injuries, I think 9th/10th was our high watermark.

I see it a bit differently. I sort of see the season in 3 chunks now, albeit they aren't chronological chunks of the season.

- the initial 6 games where we beat the lesser sides (Souths, Raiders, Knights), drew with Manly, and lost games we really should have won against locked in top 8 sides (Storm and Sharks). This form fairly consistently suggested a top 8 side.

- After that, it's basically with Shaun and without Shaun. With Shaun, we've been 0/7 and lost to a number of ordinary or understrength teams (Titans twice, Knights, Eels, Dragons).

Without Shaun we've won 5/8 - beat Cowboys, Tigers, Broncos, Panthers, Dolphins. We lost away games to Canberra, the Bulldogs and the Dolphins where we either scored the same number of tries or more. That's 8 consecutive games without Shaun where the opposition haven't scored more tries than us once.

I see those three losses as a good reflection of our season because they've been against top 8 or fringe top 8 teams, away from home, we've been injury hit, we've only played well in patches, and yet we probably should've won all 3 games. Even off our game we're nip and tuck with top 8 sides away from home. That sort of level is bottom half of top 8 stuff in 2024 imo.

I guess the better way to describe it is we've been pretty solidly lower top-8 level with TMM and absolutely not top 8 level with Shaun.

 

[Izz]

Yeah, completely agree, @Manu Vatuvei.

I think the decision that defined the season was playing SJ busted. Whether that was a decision made due to external/ownership pressure, the thought that SJ had to play because of his contract value, SJ playing down his injury because of a desire to help the team/be tough, or Webby genuinely thinking a broken SJ was a better option than the other halves choices, or something else, I don't know. But that, imo, is why we're were we are on the ladder and not somewhere between 5th-8th.