Finals format

[astrogirl]

It was just reported on Sports Tonight that the finals format for this year is under review.

They didn't give any further details. I understand there are only 2 main possibilities for a top 8 format. Would there be any reason (and would the NRL be able) to go to a top 5 format?

 

[Danish Moo Cow]

It'll be a top 8 for sure. There's too much money at stake from TV and venues to dump it now.

The only thing they'll be debating is whether to go with the system currently used, or to go back to the AFL's current system that the ARL have used in the past anyway. It'll be a real shame if they allow teams 5 and 6 to have home games while teams 3 and 4 have to go away... to teams 1 and 2.

Unless of course they're thinking of giving away home games for week 2 of the finals like the AFL. Don't see it happening though.

 

[antonius]

I'd be very surprised if they went away from the top eight format, it's a money spinner, and keeps the interest alive in the comp going down to the final rounds, given that more teams have a chance of making it, I mean look at last season, where it wasn't settled till the death, so having the eight not only gives you more finals games, it also maintains the interest (and therefore the crowds) for more teams prior to the finals. I have to say though I don't totaly agree with the eight team system where a team that's lost more games than it's won during the rounds, can qualify and in theory win the premiership.

 

[Chicken_Hunter]

I like the top 8 and the mcintyre system. I think it is probably the fairest way of going about things, where the higher up you are the more you benefit in the finals.

 

[Encurly]

The new system has been devised by our good friend Wok.

From SMH: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/03/1070351661153.html

The Ryan system

WEEK 1 Game 1: 5 v 8, Game 2: 6 v 7, Game 3: 2 v 3, Game 4: 1 v 4. *Highest-ranked winner to Week 3, lowest-ranked loser eliminated. WEEK 2 Game 5: top-4 highest loser v bottom-4 lowest winner. Game 6: top-4 lowest loser v bottom-4 highest winner. Game 7: top-4 2nd highest winner v bottom-4 2nd lowest loser. *All losers eliminated. WEEK 3 Game 8: highest winner week 1 v lowest winner week 2. Game 9: highest winner week 2 v 2nd highest winner week 2. *Losers eliminated. WEEK 4 - Grand final

It's basically the same as the AFL in the first week, except that only the lowest ranked loser bows out in week 1, while the highest ranked winner gets a week off. There's three games instead of 2 in week 2, with all losers eliminated.

It actually doesn't look a bad format. It addresses some (not all) of the AFL system's shortcomings, and is a little easier to follow than the McIntyre system. I'd need to spend longer looking at the possibilities, but I'd at least put it on par with the McIntyre, and better than the AFL system.

 

[Chicken_Hunter]

so who gets the home games in this system?

 

[Encurly]

so who gets the home games in this system?

Highest on the ladder in week 1, I assume. So, 1, 2, 5 and 6. That's one of the AFL system flaws it doesn't fix - if you finish 3rd you play away, if you finish 6th you play at home.

I'm rapidly cooling on the new system. It has a very bad flaw in allowing repeat games, like so:

First week:

1 v 4 - 1 wins and goes to week 3
2 v 3 - 2 wins
5 v 8 - 5 wins
6 v 7 - 7 wins

Second week:

3 v 6 - 3 wins
4 v 5 - 4 wins
2 v 7 - 2 wins

Third week

1 v 4
2 v 3

Yep, right back to where we were a fortnight ago. The should be some crossover mechanism to ensure that doesn't happen. McIntyre final 8 doesn't allow it, and I think the AFL system prevents it, too.

I'm back to preferring the McIntyre system.

 

[bender]

so who gets the home games in this system?

Highest on the ladder in week 1, I assume. So, 1, 2, 5 and 6. That's one of the AFL system flaws it doesn't fix - if you finish 3rd you play away, if you finish 6th you play at home.

I'm rapidly cooling on the new system. It has a very bad flaw in allowing repeat games, like so:

First week:

1 v 4 - 1 wins and goes to week 3
2 v 3 - 2 wins
5 v 8 - 5 wins
6 v 7 - 7 wins

Second week:

3 v 6 - 3 wins
4 v 5 - 4 wins
2 v 7 - 2 wins

Third week

1 v 4
2 v 3

Yep, right back to where we were a fortnight ago. The should be some crossover mechanism to ensure that doesn't happen. McIntyre final 8 doesn't allow it, and I think the AFL system prevents it, too.

I'm back to preferring the McIntyre system.

Just working this out as I go. Finish First and you need 2 wins to make the final. You can lose your first game, but from there it will be sudden death.

Finish 2nd and you need 3 wins (or maybe 2) first match is inconsequential unless 1 loses.

Finish 3rd and you need 3 wins (or maybe 2) First match is inconsequential unless 2 loses.

Finish 4th and you need 3 wins. First match is inconsequential.

Finish 5th and you need 3 wins. First match is inconsequential

Finish 6th or 7th and you need 3 wins. You should get a second bite at the cherry unless 8th wins.

Finish 8th and you get 3 sudden death games.

So, as a club, finishing first is a slight advantage. Finishing 2nd to 5th really makes no difference whatsoever (or very little anyway). Even the route from 6,7, or 8 doesnt look to be that much harder than 1 to 5. This is almost like a straight knockout system with a first round that has pretty much no meaning for all but one team. It is not shocking, but the more I look at it the worse it seems to become.

 

[astrogirl]

I'm still trying to get my head around the advantages and disadvantages to each of the three formats (McIntyre, AFL and Ryan).

Just found some text on the afl website, at http://afl.com.au/default.asp?pg=finaleightexp&spg=default&articleid=39050

The identified advantages of the new system are:

1. Simple and readily understood.
2. Provides top four teams with a guaranteed double chance.
3. Matches drawn from each group may be closer matches.
4. All games are live and team's fate not dependant on other matches.
5. Top two teams have home advantage.
6. Teams five and six have home advantage in week one of finals.

The way I see it:

Week 1 qualifying finals
A: 1 v 4
B: 2 v 3
C: 5 v 8
D: 6 v 7

Week 2 semi-final
Game C and D losers eliminated
Game A and B winners get week off
E: loser A v winner C
F: loser B v winner D

Week 3 preliminary final
G: winner A v winner F
H: winner B v winner E

Week 4 grand final
I: winner G and winner H

The AFL format seems pretty good to me. The AFL website doesn't identify and shortcomings (surprise surprise!!), and I can't think of any atm.

Now I'm going to try to find some text on the McIntyre system.

 

[Danish Moo Cow]

The AFL system is not the one being contemplated. Warren Ryan has used his spare time to cook something up. The first week is identical to the AFL, but only one team is eliminated and there is 3 games in the second week. So teams 4 and 5 are playing for nothing. Team 2 can win in the first week, then lose in the second week and be eliminated.

It's a shocking plan and if the NRL implement it, they're asking for a backlash.

 

[astrogirl]

The AFL system is not the one being contemplated.

Yeah, I know. I've never really thought through the AFL system vs Mcintyre so I thought now would be a good time, since another option has has been thrown into the mix.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it... are we actually sure that the review is only in relation to the Ryan format? or is it more general than that?

 

[Danish Moo Cow]

The NRL is loving the fact they might get an extra game in the second week of the finals. They should keep in mind that if the 2nd placed team goes 1 win and then 1 loss, they're eliminated. While team 7 can go 1 loss then 1 win and continue on.

 

[Knight87]

just use the system that was used in the 1996 ARL Final Series. The 1995 is the same as the 1996, but the 1996 one doesnt allow for repeated matches before the Grand Final.

http://stats.rleague.com/rl/snotes.html

Scroll down the page, and youll find it

 

[Frederick]

Geez, that's one helluva bump there :lol:

 

[Jono078]

God damn early morning, I thought this was a new thread :lol:

 

[perverse]

stick with the mcintyre system.. it's fair.

 

[Dave Q]

Why would you lot be concerned with the make up the finals?

Pffft!

 

[perverse]

We would you sorry lot be concerned with the make up the finals?

nonsensical wording aside - because at the moment we're winning games in sh!t awful form and are still yet to field anything resembling our best team.

 

[Dave Q]

nonsensical wording aside - because at the moment we're winning games in sh!t awful form and are still yet to field anything resembling our best team.

Your best team retired last week.

 

[perverse]

Your best team retired last week.

and then we beat souths.