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Flaws of the cap exposed

Benji Magic

Juniors
Messages
229
Melbourne hasn't nurtured any talent you turd. Hoffman and Lima -> your username pays homage to Bungi for crying out loud!

The sharks are below their cap by the way? Their recruitment is a function of the finances. You are an idiot.

FF

I'm happy for you to disagree with me but can you keep the personal insults out, it's a bit childish.

I'm an idiot??? I know where Hoffman and Lima came from. Hoffman was a wests junior and Lima played a few games off the bench. They were hardly superstars and became the players they are at the Storm.

The storm don't nurture Talent???
Cooper Cronk was a run of the ill utlity player, gets a chance at halfback when Orford leaves and blossoms to become the Australian halfback.

Greg Inglis?, Billy Slater?, Cam Smith?, Aiden Tolman? Who else did they play for? where else did they develop as players?


Matt King? Cronulla reserve grader beomes Australian centre while at the Storm.
The culture down there must be doing something right. That should be rewarded not penalised.

While the Sharks might be financially strapped this is not an excuse for their performances this year.
Their recruitment and retention policies have failed and this is nothing to do with $$$.
They have unearthed 2 good props and Blake Ferguson looks good but what else?
They have recruited duds for big $$$ in Tupou, Barrett, Maitua, Morris, Collis, Corey Hughes Karl Filiga but have let go the likes of Kimmorley, de Gois, Anthony Watts,Dane Nielson, Kevin Kingston who have gone upwards at other clubs.
They have also freed up $$$ in sacking Bird and Seymour and who did they buy with that?

Have a think about it.
 

Benji Magic

Juniors
Messages
229
A notional value system, where player can be paid what ever a side wants but has a notional value against a "cap"
1st year first grade X
2nd year first gradeY
etc
1 SOO = + $$A
2 SOO = + $$B
3 SOO = + $$C
etc
1 INTERNATIONAL = + $$D
2 NTERNATIONAL = + $$E
etc
the loyalty clause
"if a player come from a junior team at the same club he recieved a discount of X%
if a player playes 6 consecutive years of NRL level at the same club he shall be aplicable for a Y% discount, and this shall increase for every year consecutive service after that if the player changes club at any poin the discount is lost."

This is a pretty easy system, allows the clubs to pay what ever they want, but still has a "Notional Cap" in place to help distrubute the talent.
Examples
1st year frst grader is worth $40k
2nd year is worth $60k
3rd year is worht $80k
4th year is worth $100k
5th year is worth $120k
6th year is worth $140k
7th year is worth $160k
8th year is worth $180k
9th year is worth $200k
10th year is worh $220k
All player after 10 years in NRL are valued at $220k

1 SOO is worth $20k
2 SOO is worth $30k
3 SOO is worth $40k
4 SOO is worth $50K
5 SOO is worth $60K
6 $70k
7 $80k
8 $90k
9 $100k
10 $110k
Any player with 10 + SOO apperances shall have a value of $110k.

Test players shall have the same additions as SOO players ontop.

The loyalty bonus shall work as follows
Legitimate junior promoted = -10%
6 consecutive years 1 club player = -10%
7 consecutive years 1 club player = -20%
8 consecutive years 1 club player = -30%
9 consecutive years 1 club player = -40%
10 consecutive years 1 club player = -50%
11 consecutive years 1 club player = -60%
12 consecutive years 1 club player = -70%
After 12 year as a 1 club player they will remain as a 70% discount.

SO.....
a 8 year 1 club player with 6 SOO and 4 Test shall be

$180k base + SOO $70K + TESTS $50K = $300k - 30% loyalty ($90k) = $210k
if the same player had of chaged clubs he as a value of $300k
Have a notional cap of say $4mil.

Just my thoughts anyway.

I like the idea of a discount system but 70% discount is probably a bit much. I would like to see local juniors play a few years before they attract a discount. Otherwise you will have clubs signing 12 year olds to contracts in the hope that one or two actually make it. What about someone who comes from a country area and is not a local junior to any team?

The notional cap is likely to see more players forced out of the game to England or elsewhere. Just because a player who has played for a certain number of years does not make him more valuable eg a journeyman like Scott Geddes. Certain positions are also more valuable than others.

It also seems just too bloody complicated. Ity also won't stop the problem of clubs having to offload players that they have developed just so they fit under a cap.
 

nqcowboy87

Bench
Messages
4,181
I'm happy for you to disagree with me but can you keep the personal insults out, it's a bit childish.

I'm an idiot??? I know where Hoffman and Lima came from. Hoffman was a wests junior and Lima played a few games off the bench. They were hardly superstars and became the players they are at the Storm.

The storm don't nurture Talent???
Cooper Cronk was a run of the ill utlity player, gets a chance at halfback when Orford leaves and blossoms to become the Australian halfback.

Greg Inglis?, Billy Slater?, Cam Smith?, Aiden Tolman? Who else did they play for? where else did they develop as players?


Matt King? Cronulla reserve grader beomes Australian centre while at the Storm.
The culture down there must be doing something right. That should be rewarded not penalised.

While the Sharks might be financially strapped this is not an excuse for their performances this year.
Their recruitment and retention policies have failed and this is nothing to do with $$$.
They have unearthed 2 good props and Blake Ferguson looks good but what else?
They have recruited duds for big $$$ in Tupou, Barrett, Maitua, Morris, Collis, Corey Hughes Karl Filiga but have let go the likes of Kimmorley, de Gois, Anthony Watts,Dane Nielson, Kevin Kingston who have gone upwards at other clubs.
They have also freed up $$$ in sacking Bird and Seymour and who did they buy with that?

Have a think about it.

id say try and ignore him, but its hard to ignore flies. lima was a benchie at the tigers and would probably playing jim beam cup if it wasnt for the storm
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Loyalty and junior development? That would be the end of Easts! No juniors, and no success since 75 (2002 should be written off ala 2007 and 2009 since you weren't the best team)!

Easts took the best part of thirty years to buy a premiership and even then they could only do it off the back of a salary cap rort!

Easts should have a go at playing football as opposed to buying premierships. Easts couldn't get a root in a brothel!

FF

25 posts, each more sh*thouse than the last. f**k off, troll.
 

lturner

Juniors
Messages
235
Rather than evening out the talent, it just rewards mediocrity.

Melbourne didn't build a great side by cheating the cap, they built a side through smart recruitment and development, not poaching superstars from elsewhere but developing their own.

Recruitment, not money is the same reason why the Sharks are sh*thouse this year. You could start a whole new thread on this topic.

Why should Melbourne have to let their players go to other clubs who haven't been as smart?

Slater, Smith, Inglis, Hoffman, Tolman, Blair, Manu have been developed by the Storm.
Lima, Cronk came to the clubs after only a few games with other clubs and kicked on.
Lowrie, Quinn and Finch were established first graders but hardly elite players.

I would like to see a system where clubs are rewarded for nurturing their own talent and a discount for players who have played more than a certain number of years at the one club.
Whatever happens the current system needs changing and if clubs can afford it they should be able to pay their players more ( as opposed to poaching other clubs players for big $$$$ ).

Couldn't agree more. Anyone with eyes can see the salary cap is set far too low, and is doing far more than just "evening out the talent".

Despite what the NRL say (and what some people believe) the primary effect (and underlying purpose) of the salary cap is to reduce the overall amount spent on player wages.

I can see the argument for having some kind of rules in place preventing a very wealthy team from just buying up a squad of superstars and buying a premiership. But the cap in it's current form does so much more than just that. It actually tears apart successful sides, punishes clubs who are successful in recruitment and development and protects and rewards the worst-run sides.

When players are able to get paid almost double what they earn here to go and play a different sport in front of crowds of half the size, something is wrong.

The cap needs to go, or be raised dramatically.
 
Messages
545
3rd Party payments should be open slather.

Do this and you may as well run the semi finals in March amongst the 4 richest clubs, season would be over by April. The strong clubs would get all the best players with their sponsors doing all the 3rd party deals.

Salary cap is vitial for a competitive NRL, it would probably best work with a draft system.

We probably need to re-structure our juniors so that the flegg, ball and matthews are playing for geographic teams and not directly affiliated with clubs. We then need to have a draft system of these junior players so that the team that finished last gets first pick.

The salary cap was designed to work with a draft; it is time the NRL and the Players association sit down and make it happen.
 

Shifty

Juniors
Messages
842
For the cap to work, there needs to be far greater scope for rewarding players that have been at a club for 5 years or more and better opportunities for clubs to take advantage of third party sponsorship.

A draft may reduce the chance of rorting, but I think it would be a better outcome if the salary cap could be made to work. Unfortunately it does seem that no matter how generous the cap, there will always be those willing to exploit the chance for an unfair advantage.
 

aussies1st

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
28,154
How about having an unlimited cap for teams that develop a player that has 10 or less NRL games. So for the Storm case guys like Inglis, Slater, Folau, Smith, Cronk, etc could have been paid what they are now. Once their contract comes up for renewal it will count under this unlimited cap because they were developed by your club. This gives the developing club the chance to retain the players they turn into stars and money shouldn't be an issue if they desperately want to keep them.

Then you have say a 2mill cap to fill out the squad, this offers the chance to buy some players but also means you can't just buy a team of superstars like Chelsea in the EPL.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Why does anyone think the draft is a good idea?
Junior recruitment is a skill. Clearly some clubs are better than others at it. A draft would throw this out the window just for the sake of "an even competition". f**k an even competition. Even and fair are not the same thing!
 

Quidgybo

Bench
Messages
3,054
I posted these suggestions in other threads but it seems relevant here. If we're going to talk cap reform then I think we actually need two caps - a Hard Cap that represents what we can afford to spend and a Soft Cap at some level beneath that.

The Hard Cap would be the maximum dollar value that a club could spend on player payments including all bonuses, concessions (more on that in a moment), cars etc etc. The game can't spend more money than it brings in and we can't arbitrarily say we're going allow clubs to spend more just because player x was a local junior or has been loyal. The Hard Cap represents what the game can actually afford to spend on players. Whether the Hard Cap is determined to be $5m or $20m, clubs can't spend a penny more on players, end of story.

The Soft Cap might be say three quarters or four fifths of the Hard Cap (the exact figure could be debated separately). Without any concessions, a club could only spend up to the Soft Cap on players. Now we introduce the incentives...

* 10% discount for players who have played more than 20 NYC games for the club (ie. cap benefit for developing your own juniors to senior team)
* 10% discount for each additional year over five years with the same club (ie. cap benefit for showing loyalty to aging stars and keeping them in the game longer)

These concessions can be counted outside the Soft Cap up to the Hard Cap ceiling.

So taking an example. If we have a Soft Cap of $4m and a Hard Cap of $5m then a club that has not developed any of their own Toyota Cup players into first graders and has not retained any player for more than five seasons could only pay a total of $4m in player payments. A club whose entire team has graduated from their own Toyota Cup side could discount 10% of each player's wage allowing them to allocate $400k over the Soft Cap, effectively allowing them to spend $4.4m in player payments.

If a club has a 28 year old player who has played seven seasons and is being paid $300,000 per year, then they would receive a 20% discount (2 years beyond five seasons). This would mean only $240,000 of that would count under the Soft Cap and the other $60,000 could be allocated above the Soft Cap. If they still wanted to pay him the full $300,000 under the Soft Cap then effectively that means they could increase his total salary to $375,000 by claiming the increase as the 20% concession. As long as they don't go over the Hard Cap, they can allocate their concessions however they see fit.

The inherent restriction in this is if a club recruits players they haven't developed then they can never claim the 10% junior development concession for that player's wage. That player will always cost the club more under the Soft Cap than an otherwise equivalent junior. And if a club lets aging stars go then they lose the concession benefit of being able to claim an annually increasing part of that players wage outside of the Soft Cap. Without any concessions you can only spend up to the Soft Cap. Imports always cost you more under the Soft Cap than your own juniors or long serving stars. The only way to ever spend up to the Hard Cap is by developing your own players and showing loyalty to those players who have stuck with you long enough to start earning discounts.

None of this addresses policing of the cap and that will always be an issue with a cap based on player payments no matter what you do. All we can do there is remove the incentives for the players to be complicit in attempts to cheat it. All player payments, whether match fees, bonuses, third party sponsorships etc need to literally go thru the NRL.

If Bill the Plumber wants to hire Fred Smith to do a TV spot for him, even if totally independent of the player's club, then he pays the NRL and the NRL pays Fred Smith. If as a player under contract to play in the NRL you get a cheque, brown paper bag, car, house or anything else that isn't coming from the NRL then you know there's something wrong, no excuses. If you're caught then you're out of the game - for life.

At the moment the players don't have much to lose by being complicit in taking payments outside the cap. In fact they have everything to gain. By changing how they are paid so that the defence of ignorance is removed and thus adding an explicit threat of career jeopardising expulsion should they accept payments from a source other than the NRL, it becomes a lot harder for the clubs, sponsors etc to convince the players to go along with it.

Leigh.
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
Why does anyone think the draft is a good idea?
Junior recruitment is a skill. Clearly some clubs are better than others at it. A draft would throw this out the window just for the sake of "an even competition". f**k an even competition. Even and fair are not the same thing!


I don't know if it was a good idea. But it's aim was to even out the talent. The cap was to limited expenditure. Using a financial tool to even out talent is not going to work. Clearly.

Whether there should be any efforts at all to even out talent or impose financial caps is a different issue altogether.
 

TheDalek079

Bench
Messages
4,432
It took you this long to realise the flaws of the salary cap?? It was evident years ago when the Rooster empire crumbled. We had a dominant side and couldn't keep it together. Melbourne has a dominant side, and rather than play by the rules they rort the cap and now people are screaming about the weakness of the cap. if you had paid attention you'd have realised it 5 years ago and we would not have to go through this fiasco
 

flamin

Juniors
Messages
2,046
The cap is crap.

I'm all for giving every team an opportunity. It's one of the reasons the NRL is a great competition. But the main reason is the skills of the players! If we lose more great players to other competitions over this - and we probably will - that will just be further travesty added to a terrible ordeal.
 

Benji Magic

Juniors
Messages
229
It took you this long to realise the flaws of the salary cap?? It was evident years ago when the Rooster empire crumbled. We had a dominant side and couldn't keep it together. Melbourne has a dominant side, and rather than play by the rules they rort the cap and now people are screaming about the weakness of the cap. if you had paid attention you'd have realised it 5 years ago and we would not have to go through this fiasco

No, i think most people realised it years ago but it just took this latest episode to bring it out in the open again.
 

cornerposter

Juniors
Messages
978
The cap wasn't supposed to 'even out talent'.
The draft was.

That's true but the NRL love spruiking about how even the comp is because of the SC. Gould got it right today, it doesn't even the talent, it thins it.

Bring in cap exemptions for loyalty and junior development now!
+1

3rd Party payments should be open slather.
+1. If some billionaire wants to throw his money at a club, then FFS let him.

With teams like Cronulla and Newcastle - you kinda do have to hold their hands and make sure they survive.
That's the attitude that completely holds this competition back. If a club can't survive then it should die, or move to a level it can sustain QLD Cup etc.

Do this and you may as well run the semi finals in March amongst the 4 richest clubs, season would be over by April. The strong clubs would get all the best players with their sponsors doing all the 3rd party deals.
So reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator. Here's one out of left field - why not grow the weak clubs to be strong :shock:
 

ozjet1

Guest
Messages
841
I hope this sees the end of the salary cap as we know it.
Melbourne SHOULD have been allowed by the rules to pay blokes like Inglis and Slater whatever they f**k they want. We should be encouraging players to stay at 1 club.

Bring in cap exemptions for loyalty and junior development now!

when every club is bankrolled by global corporations, then your hopes may come true.
 
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