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The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

Messages
15,436
I disagree, as do most of the world’s great sporting clubs and competitions. Does Manchester U, Liverpool, or any EPL or NBA or NFL teams build stadiums with spare capacity?

Sorry but those are bad comparisons. Old Trafford by the 1980s had reduced capacity of the ground from 80,000 to 60,000 and when renovations were made to make it an all seater stadium capacity was reduced to 44,000. It was only following the club's resurgence on the field that they began expanding its capacity which is just shy of 75,000.

Anfield is a different kettle of fish as the ground itself was surrounded by private housing. That is what stymied all thoughts of expansion, and why the previous owners considered a new stadium being built at Stanley Park. It was only the finances of the new owners which enabled them to buy up those houses so they could expand Anfield which they did in September 2016 when the extra seating was opened, and increased its capacity to 54,074. fact is they are planning further expansion of the ground at the Anfield Road end to increase ground capacity to 61,000.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,436
I think 15-18k is good for now, but they need to be built with supports and a structure that it can easily and cheaply be upgraded when needed
That never works. The extra costs of heavier foundations, removing the roof to expand makes it impractical. Build 6 - 8k stands on each side, with a hill and decent video scoreboard at one end. You can then just upgrade one stand every 30 years or so. E.g. At Cambeltown on stand is relatively modern. So you spend $60m - $80m on one new stand and another $20m on new entrances, amenities, food and drink around the rest of the stadium. Then in 15 years you upgrade the other side, and so on. Cap it at $100m per stadium.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,436
Sorry but those are bad comparisons. Old Trafford by the 1980s had reduced capacity of the ground from 80,000 to 60,000 and when renovations were made to make it an all seater stadium capacity was reduced to 44,000. It was only following the club's resurgence on the field that they began expanding its capacity which is just shy of 75,000.

Anfield is a different kettle of fish as the ground itself was surrounded by private housing. That is what stymied all thoughts of expansion, and why the previous owners considered a new stadium being built at Stanley Park. It was only the finances of the new owners which enabled them to buy up those houses so they could expand Anfield which they did in September 2016 when the extra seating was opened, and increased its capacity to 54,074. fact is they are planning further expansion of the ground at the Anfield Road end to increase ground capacity to 61,000.
You are massing my point. Those clubs will fill the stadiums at the expanded capacities each week, so they are building the right size. They are not building double the size they need.
None of the Sydney NRL clubs staying in their area will fill 30k each week.
 

unforgiven

Bench
Messages
3,138
You are massing my point. Those clubs will fill the stadiums at the expanded capacities each week, so they are building the right size. They are not building double the size they need.
None of the Sydney NRL clubs staying in their area will fill 30k each week.

Not many people are able to change my opinion on a subject but you have with your last couple of posts, thank you for your well thought out ideas.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,551
I think 15-18k is good for now, but they need to be built with supports and a structure that it can easily and cheaply be upgraded when needed

you are basically dooming your club to a small revenue base and falling further behind the clubs playing in big capacity stadiums with this strategy. Good luck with that.

with 25-30k stadiums you have the chance to build your business. Do what Eels are doing for example, or Melbourne, or Souths, dogs, cowboys no doubt, in fact every club that has moved into a larger capacity venue. You have opportunity for Dynamic ticket pricing, lower membership prices, reciprocal membership agreements with other clubs etc. you get none of that opportunity with a 15k stadium. You mentioned Chicago bulls as an example, they make up for lack of capacity with ticket price, that excludes a lot of the fanbase and good luck getting an nrl fan to fork out $150 a game so you can keep up with the big clubs on your sub 15k crowds (which is what you’d end up with in a 15k capacity stadium). It’s not a very smart business model imo.
 
Last edited:

reanimate

Bench
Messages
3,871
It's no wonder Brookvale is still a shithole when you have the local council knocking back plans like this due to a few f**king trees.
Thankfully, the council has been over ruled and hopefully this now goes ahead.



From the Northern Beaches Advocate:
Grandstand go ahead
Aug 2, 2020 | Curl Curl ward, Lifestyle
2020-08-02-brookvale-grandstand.jpg



The Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles will build a new Centre of Excellence and 3,000 seat covered grandstand at the northern end of Brookvale Oval.
A Northern Beaches Council commissioned report recommended the development application be rejected but the Sydney North Planning Panel over-ruled the arguments made by Council’s assessor and approved the development.
Council’s report said that the proposed development did not meet the plan of management for Brookvale Park, and would result in the removal of heritage listed trees at the northern end of the park to accommodate the new building.
Advocating on behalf of the Sea Eagles for the proposal, Mr Chris Dare, Managing Director of sporting facility specialist Stratcorp, pointed out that major upgrades to Brookvale Oval had been contemplated for over 20 years, none of which had come to fruition.
He said, “Over the past 15 years the condition of facilities has steadily fallen and the venue is now one of the worst in the NRL.”
The club have $32.5m in committed funding from the state and federal government. They claim the project is shovel-ready, able to start within 4 — 6 weeks, boosting jobs at a critical time.
Mr Dare made a point of saying the project would be at no cost to the ratepayers of the Northern Beaches, despite Council being responsible for the ground.
Mr Dare also told the planning panel that a Centre of Excellence would significantly improve accessibility and public amenity, with much improved toilets, 3,000 undercover seats at the northern end of the ground, and facilities for female players.
Council’s preferred option was for the Centre of Excellence to occupy the eastern side of the ground. Mr Glenn Scott, a design consultant from Hassell, explained this was not a desirable location as the building would not utilise the space properly and compromise future options at the ground.
Mr Stephen White, from urban planning consultants Urbis, also spoke for the Sea Eagles, explaining to the panel that the loss of the heritage listed trees could be justified. He said there was no clear provenance of the plantings in the 1920s — 1930s or the purpose of the plantings, with multiple removals over the years to accommodate usage of the ground.
Mr White also pointed out that the Sea Eagles themselves were an important part of the heritage of the ground since 1947, “The use of the park as a sporting ground is intrinsically linked to the oval and changes in development have occurred over time. If the club were to leave to seek improved facilities elsewhere, that would represent a greater loss of heritage [than the trees].”
Representatives for the Sea Eagles were clear they expected to replant trees to replace those lost, and they will act to protect trees which are not absolutely needed to be removed. Asked if they could change the shape of the building to save more trees, it was explained that the constraint of the space required for an NRL field meant saving a tree in one place meant one (or two) were impacted somewhere else.
The approval of the development should see the renewal of a long-term commitment by the Sea Eagles to stay at Brookvale Oval. The proposal was supported in public feedback. Mr Dare concluded, “After 20 years of talking, the community wants the club to get on with it.”
Image: Artists impression submitted to the Sydney North Planning Panel

Some more imagery etc:
e78eda53-70cf-42a3-975e-08cd8b7c46ed-jpeg.371204
The mayor of the council is a tosser who appears to hate RL. He was trying to extort the club with massive rent costs when he was mayor of Warringah and he nailed the Leagues club who spent a stack on securing the North Manly bowls club by handing over the long term lease on the area to another company, rendering their investment useless.
 

greenBV4

Bench
Messages
2,510
you are basically dooming your club to a small revenue base and falling further behind the clubs playing in big capacity stadiums with this strategy. Good luck with that.

with 25-30k stadiums you have the chance to build your business. Do what Eels are doing for example, or Melbourne, or Souths, dogs, cowboys no doubt, in fact every club that has moved into a larger capacity venue. You have opportunity for Dynamic ticket pricing, lower membership prices, reciprocal membership agreements with other clubs etc. you get none of that opportunity with a 15k stadium. You mentioned Chicago bulls as an example, they make up for lack of capacity with ticket price, that excludes a lot of the fanbase and good luck getting an nrl fan to fork out $150 a game so you can keep up with the big clubs on your sub 15k crowds (which is what you’d end up with in a 15k capacity stadium). It’s not a very smart business model imo.

That wasn't me who said the chicago stuff.
I wasn't clear with the post you quoted, I think AAMI/Bankwest/NQ are the perfect examples we should be aiming for and would be great if we could get some more of those. But if we were to go for 15-18k boutiques that would suit the immediate future they will need to be designed in a way to easily be upgraded in the future, to get to that 30k range to allow for growth
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,436
you are basically dooming your club to a small revenue base and falling further behind the clubs playing in big capacity stadiums with this strategy. Good luck with that.

with 25-30k stadiums you have the chance to build your business. Do what Eels are doing for example, or Melbourne, or Souths, dogs, cowboys no doubt, in fact every club that has moved into a larger capacity venue. You have opportunity for Dynamic ticket pricing, lower membership prices, reciprocal membership agreements with other clubs etc. you get none of that opportunity with a 15k stadium. You mentioned Chicago bulls as an example, they make up for lack of capacity with ticket price, that excludes a lot of the fanbase and good luck getting an nrl fan to fork out $150 a game so you can keep up with the big clubs on your sub 15k crowds (which is what you’d end up with in a 15k capacity stadium). It’s not a very smart business model imo.
I think you are wrong.

Some examples to show why.

Melbourne average just under 50% of the capacity of AAMI. A big crowd is 17k and a small one is 13k, so less fluctuation than most clubs. If I take a child or friend to their first game, and the stadium is less than half full, there is very little atmosphere. Plus the cheap seats are much further from the action. What is there was 15k in a 18k stadium? The place would be pumping. This first timer would have a more enjoyable experience and would be much more likely to return, tell their friends, etc. Average crowds might actually increase. Storm would be much better off in a 22k stadium (which is the average for finals) Nothing increases demand and profits like a full house.

Over your way in Perth, West Cost Eagles (who are the biggest sporting club in the country) sell out every game and there is a waiting list. They could pull 80k to some games and probably close to 100k for the WA derby and finals. So why did they build a 60k stadium instead of 100k?
1. Less expensive to build so less political sensitive which ensures that it happens
2. Less expensive to maintain and operate
3. Better atmosphere and experience for attendees. And better on TV
4. Sellouts create demand and ensure that members buy reserved seats
5. More profitable for tenant clubs

Everyone says that the two best stadiums in Australia are Adelaide Oval and Perth. The simple reason for this is that they are usually full - almost every other stadium in the country. Suncorp, Geelong and Newcastle would be the only other stadiums to average over two thirds capacity. Most are much lower - MCG & Docklands 50% (however, the high number of events keeps them profitable), ANZ 25% and SFS 30%. This is ridiculous. No other county in the world builds stadiums two to four times larger than average crowds.

I am not suggesting the every club has a 15k stadium. Manly & Wollongong yes. For others, 18k or up to 20k is perfect.
Funds are limited. Build more smaller, better stadiums. Make sure all seats are undercover. Sell them out each week. Create demand. Create a buzz. Increase membership. Increase reserved seat holder. Increase profits. Don’t try to compete with AFL crowd sizes. Be better not bigger.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,551
That wasn't me who said the chicago stuff.
I wasn't clear with the post you quoted, I think AAMI/Bankwest/NQ are the perfect examples we should be aiming for and would be great if we could get some more of those. But if we were to go for 15-18k boutiques that would suit the immediate future they will need to be designed in a way to easily be upgraded in the future, to get to that 30k range to allow for growth

15-18k doesn’t suit the now never mind the future, immediate or long term. Much better that fans get over themselves and the nrl aims for shared stadiums of bankwest quality. Only manly and panthers due to geography Are going to struggle to share a stadium and need a long term plan for their own stadium rebuilds, the rest should be aiming to share what we have with one or two new bankwest style stadiums to service southern sydney two clubs and Sw two clubs. That way you’ve sorted out sydney for the next 40 years plus.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,436
That wasn't me who said the chicago stuff.
I wasn't clear with the post you quoted, I think AAMI/Bankwest/NQ are the perfect examples we should be aiming for and would be great if we could get some more of those. But if we were to go for 15-18k boutiques that would suit the immediate future they will need to be designed in a way to easily be upgraded in the future, to get to that 30k range to allow for growth
Clubs that are averaging 11k - 15k are never, ever going to need a 30k stadium. Sports crowds are not increasing. Sydney already has three that size for finals. It is a waste of money and you end up with a worse product in half empty stadiums. You Easter do what Melbourne has done and build two megastadiums, or you follow the EPL model of boutique (relative to demand) local stadiums. Sydney is trying to do both and so far has ended up with neither.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,551
I think you are wrong.

Some examples to show why.

Melbourne average just under 50% of the capacity of AAMI. A big crowd is 17k and a small one is 13k, so less fluctuation than most clubs. If I take a child or friend to their first game, and the stadium is less than half full, there is very little atmosphere. Plus the cheap seats are much further from the action. What is there was 15k in a 18k stadium? The place would be pumping. This first timer would have a more enjoyable experience and would be much more likely to return, tell their friends, etc. Average crowds might actually increase. Storm would be much better off in a 22k stadium (which is the average for finals) Nothing increases demand and profits like a full house.

Over your way in Perth, West Cost Eagles (who are the biggest sporting club in the country) sell out every game and there is a waiting list. They could pull 80k to some games and probably close to 100k for the WA derby and finals. So why did they build a 60k stadium instead of 100k?
1. Less expensive to build so less political sensitive which ensures that it happens
2. Less expensive to maintain and operate
3. Better atmosphere and experience for attendees. And better on TV
4. Sellouts create demand and ensure that members buy reserved seats
5. More profitable for tenant clubs

Everyone says that the two best stadiums in Australia are Adelaide Oval and Perth. The simple reason for this is that they are usually full - almost every other stadium in the country. Suncorp, Geelong and Newcastle would be the only other stadiums to average over two thirds capacity. Most are much lower - MCG & Docklands 50% (however, the high number of events keeps them profitable), ANZ 25% and SFS 30%. This is ridiculous. No other county in the world builds stadiums two to four times larger than average crowds.

I am not suggesting the every club has a 15k stadium. Manly & Wollongong yes. For others, 18k or up to 20k is perfect.
Funds are limited. Build more smaller, better stadiums. Make sure all seats are undercover. Sell them out each week. Create demand. Create a buzz. Increase membership. Increase reserved seat holder. Increase profits. Don’t try to compete with AFL crowd sizes. Be better not bigger.

Melbourne avg over 16k for last few years, they need some bigger crowds to counter balance the smaller crowds to get this. They also want to GROW.

eagles would have loved a 80k plus stadium and campaigned for it but state govt wouldn’t spend more than the $1.2bill they budgeted. You think they are happy knowing there are 10-20k fans who they could be getting revenue from that they arent because of stadium capacity?

You shouldn’t be building stadiums 4 times bigger than needed, that’s just stupid. But you do want around 30% growth opportunity if possible. Without it you’re not going to grow your revenue form a key source. Nrl clubs need to be targeting 20kmcrowds and need at least 25k stadiums if they are going to achieve that avg. tv money is in decline, sponsors are dying up, the only growth revenue source left is fans,
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,436
15-18k doesn’t suit the now never mind the future, immediate or long term. Much better that fans get over themselves and the nrl aims for shared stadiums of bankwest quality. Only manly and panthers due to geography Are going to struggle to share a stadium and need a long term plan for their own stadium rebuilds, the rest should be aiming to share what we have with one or two new bankwest style stadiums to service southern sydney two clubs and Sw two clubs. That way you’ve sorted out sydney for the next 40 years plus.
PR.
1. Clubs don’t want to share.
2. Fans don’t want to share.
2. There are already stadiums that they could share if they did want to share.
3. 18k would be enough for every based on recent averages. Imagine every game a sellout with a couple of blockbusters at Parra, SFS or ANZ.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,436
Melbourne avg over 16k for last few years, they need some bigger crowds to counter balance the smaller crowds to get this. They also want to GROW.

eagles would have loved a 80k plus stadium and campaigned for it but state govt wouldn’t spend more than the $1.2bill they budgeted. You think they are happy knowing there are 10-20k fans who they could be getting revenue from that they arent because of stadium capacity?

You shouldn’t be building stadiums 4 times bigger than needed, that’s just stupid. But you do want around 30% growth opportunity if possible. Without it you’re not going to grow your revenue form a key source. Nrl clubs need to be targeting 20kmcrowds and need at least 25k stadiums if they are going to achieve that avg. tv money is in decline, sponsors are dying up, the only growth revenue source left is fans,
Most of the money comes from TV and always will. Stadiums are for the dedicated fans and to create atmosphere. 18k is already 30% above average crowds at the suburban stadiums.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,551
PR.
1. Clubs don’t want to share.
2. Fans don’t want to share.
2. There are already stadiums that they could share if they did want to share.
3. 18k would be enough for every based on recent averages. Imagine every game a sellout with a couple of blockbusters at Parra, SFS or ANZ.

but every game won’t be a sell out, we have numerous stadiums with a comfortable capacity under 20k now, how many sell out? Reality is people don’t bother going because you can’t get a good seat or toilets are too busy or drink lines are too long. It’s not just seat capacity but facilities as well that come with capacity. Reality is in a 18k stadium will see you never get more than a 15-16k avg, a 15k stadium 12-13k avg. clubs won’t survive if they don’t start to get people paying to go to games. We keep being told the fans are there just not attending, The game needs its clubs playing in bankwest quality and scale stadiums or it’s going to struggle even more in years to come,

Most of the money comes from TV and always will. Stadiums are for the dedicated fans and to create atmosphere. 18k is already 30% above average crowds at the suburban stadiums.

not for clubs it isn’t, especially of you have a decent fan attendance. Clubs can earn three times from their fanbase what they earn from tv if they worked at it.
 

Quicksilver

Bench
Messages
4,355
but every game won’t be a sell out, we have numerous stadiums with a comfortable capacity under 20k now, how many sell out? Reality is people don’t bother going because you can’t get a good seat or toilets are too busy or drink lines are too long. It’s not just seat capacity but facilities as well that come with capacity. Reality is in a 18k stadium will see you never get more than a 15-16k avg, a 15k stadium 12-13k avg. clubs won’t survive if they don’t start to get people paying to go to games. We keep being told the fans are there just not attending, The game needs its clubs playing in bankwest quality and scale stadiums or it’s going to struggle even more in years to come,



not for clubs it isn’t, especially of you have a decent fan attendance. Clubs can earn three times from their fanbase what they earn from tv if they worked at it.

not really. And to “really work at it”, would cost a load of money. And if every club grew their fanbase, You’d have to think TV audiences would follow.

Seriously, I’d rather my club go for a decent size stadium to fit a realistic attendance. 22k is about right, take it to 26k even. If we have excess revenue I’d rather it be put into non-Rugby League investments. Paying thousands of dollars per seat in a stand does not represent good value for money, until it’ll be full most of the time.
 
Messages
12,484
The foundations for Allianz are finally getting laid. Interesting that they’re still calling it “dual configuration” stadium. Thought all that shit got dropped or was it just the curtain?

Sydney stadium rebuild underway despite Covid-19 pandemic
  • Foundations laid for dual-configuration stadium
  • Work at Moore Park scheduled to be competed by late 2022
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp...um-rebuild-underway-despite-covid-19-pandemic
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,854
I am not suggesting the every club has a 15k stadium. Manly & Wollongong yes. For others, 18k or up to 20k is perfect.

If the best an NRL club can aim for is 15k or 18k in a 300k area then just build them a nice well slopped grass hill because they aren't important enough to the area or ambitious enough as a club to have money spent on them.
 

Quicksilver

Bench
Messages
4,355
Should be really ambitious and build a 320,000 stadium in an area with a 300,000 population.

I mean why not. We’ve seemingly got unlimited resources.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,436
If the best an NRL club can aim for is 15k or 18k in a 300k area then just build them a nice well slopped grass hill because they aren't important enough to the area or ambitious enough as a club to have money spent on them.
Why do you think that 18k is a poor crowd?
 

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