Given the season is over....

[Iafeta]

Another thought. I think sponsors would rather see name players out there. Now I get it, "we'll just tell them to F themselves", which is all good in theory until they get to contract renewal point and the relationship may not be the same.

I think we should be putting some new blokes on the bench. James Bell is probably too small for first grade IMO but he has always come across to me as super competitive and combative in lower grades so I'm glad he got a reward. I heard Jazz was in Kearneys bad books and unfortunately he has lost a bit of form this year, but his on field attitude is similar. Tries his guts out. Wouldn't mind seeing him get another shot.

 

[TheDMC]

One of the reasons touted for not replacing our non performing players over the years is that the next in line lack experience and the step up is too big etc. must be eased into it blah blah blah. Warriors will be fools not to give some fringe players some more game time or debuts in these dead rubbers.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Why, what can they prove in the off season, sorry IMO that's short sighted. Experience is invaluable to them and we need to think about the future, losing now with Foran is meaningless losing now with them could add value longer term

Like the idea of CNK getting time at centre, except Kata is untouchable and Ayshford should not be dropped.

No, you're the one who is being shortsighted on this occasion IMO and giving youngsters 5 games of losing experience really won't have the desired effect you want it to in the future.

Dumping better players who are not going to be here next year just for some token games of experience?

You're purposefully weakening your team, basically throwing up the white flag and acccepting defeat in a team that is already mentally lacking in confidence and belief.

The last thing this group of players need is for the coach to drop players and give the impression that we're closing up shop for the year.

When you're trying to develop a hard edge and culture, this sort of thing is completely counter productive, and if you bring in players just to get thrashed because the organisation has gone into "next year" mode then there really is no benefit to the younger players.

 

[Iafeta]

I agree with the above.

The only caveat is if a bloke has clearly checked out then show to the team they are droppable. Otherwise wholeheartedly agree.

I get that it's a circumstance of injuries, but Bunty, James Bell and albeit for just the one game Chris Satae have been in the squad.

 

[vvvrulz]

Personally I'd piss both Foreign and Luke off to reserve grade. Both have been a complete let down and deserve to sit in the reggies while we groom talent for next year.

Now is as good a time as any because we've confirmed both of them are just wasting everyone's time.

 

[JJ]

No, you're the one who is being shortsighted on this occasion IMO and giving youngsters 5 games of losing experience really won't have the desired effect you want it to in the future.

Dumping better players who are not going to be here next year just for some token games of experience?

You're purposefully weakening your team, basically throwing up the white flag and acccepting defeat in a team that is already mentally lacking in confidence and belief.

The last thing this group of players need is for the coach to drop players and give the impression that we're closing up shop for the year.

When you're trying to develop a hard edge and culture, this sort of thing is completely counter productive, and if you bring in players just to get thrashed because the organisation has gone into "next year" mode then there really is no benefit to the younger players.

Not sure I agree - American sport, especially baseball is big on this - selling and re-tooling

I also recall Jack Gibson as Origin coach bringing in Daley, Clyde etc and getting a fearful pounding, but of course they developed into a dominant NSW team - obvious differences with club football so might not be a good analogy

We need to know whether Ata, CNK, Lino etc are really first grade players, and I am not sure we know yet - we're losing anyway, and IMO Foran has done SFA, and won't be here next year.

Anyway, it won't happen, so all hypothetical

 

[Rich102]

No, you're the one who is being shortsighted on this occasion IMO and giving youngsters 5 games of losing experience really won't have the desired effect you want it to in the future.

Dumping better players who are not going to be here next year just for some token games of experience?

You're purposefully weakening your team, basically throwing up the white flag and acccepting defeat in a team that is already mentally lacking in confidence and belief.

The last thing this group of players need is for the coach to drop players and give the impression that we're closing up shop for the year.

When you're trying to develop a hard edge and culture, this sort of thing is completely counter productive, and if you bring in players just to get thrashed because the organisation has gone into "next year" mode then there really is no benefit to the younger players.

No, dropping poorly performing players and giving less experienced players a chance gives a positive message to all.
Perform or your place in the team is in jeopardy.

 

[Iafeta]

Not sure I agree - American sport, especially baseball is big on this - selling and re-tooling

I also recall Jack Gibson as Origin coach bringing in Daley, Clyde etc and getting a fearful pounding, but of course they developed into a dominant NSW team - obvious differences with club football so might not be a good analogy

We need to know whether Ata, CNK, Lino etc are really first grade players, and I am not sure we know yet - we're losing anyway, and IMO Foran has done SFA, and won't be here next year.

Anyway, it won't happen, so all hypothetical

Rep football and club football are different IMO. In rep football they earn $30k per game, it's not a per season thing. The mentality around that is significantly different. You are picking from a pool of say 100 players that you don't need to have an ongoing relationship with. In NRL, not only can you create rifts in your team that can cause long term damage but you can create perceptions in the player market particularly with player agents holding a lot of sway.

With American sports, they'll often waive top players or designate for assignment in lower leagues once they see they can't get into the playoffs. The why is really simple. The draft. You can get significantly better chances of earlier draft picks. If you finish down the bottom of the NRL, there's no concession be it lottery draft pick likelihoods or say a recovery concession in the salary cap.

In terms of Foran, I disagree he's done SFA. I think he's been greatly hindered by injuries. The true test for him is whether he can ever get back to where he was physically. I don't think he's our problem. Nor is Shaun. It's the pack of poodles they play off the back of. Barely any tackle breaks, meaningful offloads, and a dearth of quick rucks equals minimum space and time against set defensive lines.

 

[Iafeta]

Personally I'd piss both Foreign and Luke off to reserve grade. Both have been a complete let down and deserve to sit in the reggies while we groom talent for next year.

Now is as good a time as any because we've confirmed both of them are just wasting everyone's time.

Before Isaac got injured I thought his prior month was really really good. TBH I don't watch as closely at the back of seasons as I used to so I can't comment thereafter with much validity.

 

[JJ]

Rep football and club football are different IMO. In rep football they earn $30k per game, it's not a per season thing. The mentality around that is significantly different. You are picking from a pool of say 100 players that you don't need to have an ongoing relationship with. In NRL, not only can you create rifts in your team that can cause long term damage but you can create perceptions in the player market particularly with player agents holding a lot of sway.

With American sports, they'll often waive top players or designate for assignment in lower leagues once they see they can't get into the playoffs. The why is really simple. The draft. You can get significantly better chances of earlier draft picks. If you finish down the bottom of the NRL, there's no concession be it lottery draft pick likelihoods or say a recovery concession in the salary cap.

In terms of Foran, I disagree he's done SFA. I think he's been greatly hindered by injuries. The true test for him is whether he can ever get back to where he was physically. I don't think he's our problem. Nor is Shaun. It's the pack of poodles they play off the back of. Barely any tackle breaks, meaningful offloads, and a dearth of quick rucks equals minimum space and time against set defensive lines.

Yep, I did acknowledge rep foortball is different, although they weren't paid 30K back than, and agree on the US stuff, although the baseball draft and indeed the NFL ones don't have the (potentially) immediate/quick benefits the NBA one can

Foran's body is clearly and issue, and no the halves aren't the primary problem, but the bottom line is Foran isn't part of our solution, and providing the opportunity for him to get back to where he was (but seriously people are living in the past on that, he's so far from that it's not funny) to benefit the Dogs or (unlikely) the Kiwis simply isn't the responsibility of the Warriors

2017 (like all those other years) is gone, 2018 should be the focus, and first grade experience (even losing) is much more useful than meaningless trial games before next season

 

[Alan Johnson]

Just thinking... instead of trying to hire a top coach from Oz, maybe we should hire whoever is in charge of fitness/conditioning from one of the top teams (particularly someone who handles the off-season, which we are clearly not utilising as effectively as the Australian clubs). Maybe we've already done that, I don't know, but it strikes me that it might be a way of finding some real performance gains in lieu of getting a proper coach. I'm not sure running up the dunes at Bethell's Beach is enough to prep these guys for a season of NRL anymore.

I'm convinced that looking for small gains is how the Warriors will become a genuine proposition in the NRL. It's unlikely to be by signing hotshot coaches and players, so it needs to be things that are achievable and manageable and which lead to an improvement in the team's baseline level of competence. Fitness, investment in the school and club level game, hiring a management consultancy firm to fire every motherf**ker who works for the club and rebuilding it from the ground up. Small things like that.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

No, dropping poorly performing players and giving less experienced players a chance gives a positive message to all.
Perform or your place in the team is in jeopardy.

We're not talking about dropping players for performance, that's entirely different. Dropping players purely because they won't be at the club next year is not the right way to do it.

And you can't do it to one and not the other. You can't drop Foran for Ata because next year while leaving Mutts in the team (and probably Lillyman who looks likely to leave), but then if you do drop Mutts and Lillyman what is Ata going to learn other than "look how bashed I get with no forwards in front of me".

It really doesn't work. On the field, off the field, the moment the staff give up, the players will follow - more so than they already do.

 

[Cold Roses]

It's the pack of poodles they play off the back of. Barely any tackle breaks, meaningful offloads, and a dearth of quick rucks equals minimum space and time against set defensive lines.

It just can't be underestimated how important these things are to the modern game. The momentum created by tackle breaks and post contact metres in the forwards are hugely important in the opposition 40.

We don't get a lot of that. Gavet has done well this year, but he's playing a lone role most weeks. I know this hurts a few feelings around these parts, but Matulino and Lillyman, (and let me put this in context), 'in terms of the balance of our pack', just aren't effective enough in this area. Sure they take enough hit ups, get some good run metres, make their tackles, and have their moments, but we need more than that. All teams do. Lillyman just isn't big enough to get the job done, and Matulino with his hop and skip before the line has looked like a shell of the player he should be. Put either of those guys in the Storm or Roosters pack and sure, they play their role and get the job done because the other stuff is coming from different players. In our pack, as our leading props, it's just not happening. It's not just about the workrate, it's just as much about the effectiveness of that output.

I know there is a lot of mentions of 'may as well keep Lillyman next year because how screwed are we if no one comes to replace him', but at some point you have to roll the dice and see if something different works. Surely. The club seem to be acknowledging this, finally. My hope is for the development that seems to be being placed on the guys in Isp. There has been a focus on big minutes for some of those boys. Hopefully if just a couple of them step up, things may start looking up in this area.

 

[Hawkins]

You obviously haven't noticed how direct he plays

No but I spotted your position on the ladder

 

[JJ]

No but I spotted your position on the ladder

indeed, you didn't have to avert your gaze far from your team to see us

 

[JJ]

We're not talking about dropping players for performance, that's entirely different. Dropping players purely because they won't be at the club next year is not the right way to do it.

And you can't do it to one and not the other. You can't drop Foran for Ata because next year while leaving Mutts in the team (and probably Lillyman who looks likely to leave), but then if you do drop Mutts and Lillyman what is Ata going to learn other than "look how bashed I get with no forwards in front of me".

It really doesn't work. On the field, off the field, the moment the staff give up, the players will follow - more so than they already do.

I'm happy to drop Foran on performance - call it what you like

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

I'm happy to drop Foran on performance - call it what you like

But keep worse performers because reasons? Sure, that will go down without a hitch.

 

[Fufu Andronez]

indeed, you didn't have to avert your gaze far from your team to see us

haha beautiful

 

[JJ]

But keep worse performers because reasons? Sure, that will go down without a hitch.

I wouldn't -- it's Kearney that has refused to drop anyone bar CNK

 

[vvvrulz]

Before Isaac got injured I thought his prior month was really really good. TBH I don't watch as closely at the back of seasons as I used to so I can't comment thereafter with much validity.

It's pretty much as you put it, there's a token month where Luke suddenly finds life and does great things (usually origin time, funny that). Then he's more than happy to go back to coasting.

He and Foran are two of the biggest flop signings we've ever had.