Gold Coast Bears/Nth Sydney/Gosford

[The Great Dane]

Yeah I understood that.

My point is that would create a 2 speed competition. Rich clubs & poor clubs, there’s already a gap, it’ll increase that further,

Promotion and relegation can work on a wider scale with a big enough population. Tyranny of distance will become less of an issue in the time period I’m talking about. (40-50 years)

That's a good point, you would create a class of clubs that are much riskier to invest in then non-Sydney clubs and create a huge rich-poor divide between the Sydney clubs and the rest.
It's also inherently unfair that some clubs can be relegated and some can't.

BTW isn't it interesting that the tyranny of distance is only a big issue for Sydney clubs!

 

[herbert henry1908]

Dropping 4 teams from Sydney all at once would be madness, but long term it's the best bet for the future.

This is all academic though because there isn't anywhere for them to drop to that has reasonable exposure.
That's why the second tier needs to be restructured into a more inclusive national competition, where teams from anywhere can join.

If 2 of those teams being dropped are moving to central coast & Wollongong.

Otherwise I think it would be too much.

Yeah definitely like the idea of a national second tier, more important than a national reserve grade.

 

[Stallion]

Dude, I understood.

I’m saying it’s an interesting idea but it’d create a have’s and have nots competition.

Not so. The established Sydney clubs have an historical and established presence. The newer clubs though in towns/cities have less historical advantage but a locality advantage. The parochialism is already established between Sydney clubs and this is an advantage in the market place. Another factor not mentioned is Sydneys population is growing. In fact getting bigger in the inner city areas with high density living.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Not so. The established Sydney clubs have an historical and established presence. The newer clubs though in towns/cities have less historical advantage but a locality advantage. The parochialism is already established between Sydney clubs and this is an advantage in the market place. Another factor not mentioned is Sydneys population is growing. In fact getting bigger in the inner city areas with high density living.

The unfair nature of some teams having promotion & relegation will put some fans off. Not too mention it will make it harder to attract long term corporate sponsors for those clubs.

I agree the Sydney rivalries are great but that’s not going to be enough to sustain them in such a situation.

Look at stadiums.

When Townsville gets done virtually all non Sydney teams will have high quality, modern stadia. Where as only half the Sydney teams can say the same.

This is no coincidence. There’s limited money to spread around in one city. This theme translates to all aspects of corporate support.

True Sydney’s population is growing, but not all the demographics are on our side. Particularly in inner Sydney, this is a huge growth area for Asian Australians, rugby league is a tough sell in that market.

 

[Stallion]

The unfair nature of some teams having promotion & relegation will put some fans off. Not too mention it will make it harder to attract long term corporate sponsors for those clubs.

I agree the Sydney rivalries are great but that’s not going to be enough to sustain them in such a situation.

Look at stadiums.

When Townsville gets done virtually all non Sydney teams will have high quality, modern stadia. Where as only half the Sydney teams can say the same.

This is no coincidence. There’s limited money to spread around in one city. This theme translates to all aspects of corporate support.

True Sydney’s population is growing, but not all the demographics are on our side. Particularly in inner Sydney, this is a huge growth area for Asian Australians, rugby league is a tough sell in that market.

This is where we differ. I believe rugby league is underselling itself. Its not even contemplating gaining new demographics or nationalities? Instead of "running away" this game is good enough to attract. Their are obstacles, however development people are paid to deal with this. Im about strengthening Sydney and outside of Sydney. A promotion & relegation set up for Sydney clubs is workable. You would incorporate and think of rules to have this occur in a business like manner with fairness. Perhaps an offer to an inteding club when a club repeatedly falters may be the way to go? Im sure something reasonable can be worked out. If the Sydney clubs are given a chance instead of eternally ommitted from the top flight ots much better . Junior numbers would be bolstered with real opportunity to play in the NRL offered. The game grows exponentially once again as it did in the 60s and 70s.

 

[Perth Red]

You assert that these established Sydney clubs have small fanbases. So Cronulla Sutherland and other 'smaller' clubs haven't created a fanbase outside of their area despite winning a premiership and being competitive. I think you underestimate the effects of genuine longevity and the credibility that goes with this. Once again your backflip is dissappointing. Negativity must sit well with you.

Reality. And no they haven't. Despite premiership wins the fanbases of a third of the Sydney clubs is tiny. And this is holding the game back from growth into big city opportunities. If the nrl had a 20 club ten year strategy you could live with carry these small clubs for nostalgia purposes, but they don't and the game can't afford to be held back any longer.

 

[herbert henry1908]

This is where we differ. I believe rugby league is underselling itself. Its not even contemplating gaining new demographics or nationalities? Instead of "running away" this game is good enough to attract. Their are obstacles, however development people are paid to deal with this. Im about strengthening Sydney and outside of Sydney. A promotion & relegation set up for Sydney clubs is workable. You would incorporate and think of rules to have this occur in a business like manner with fairness. Perhaps an offer to an inteding club when a club repeatedly falters may be the way to go? Im sure something reasonable can be worked out. If the Sydney clubs are given a chance instead of eternally ommitted from the top flight ots much better . Junior numbers would be bolstered with real opportunity to play in the NRL offered. The game grows exponentially once again as it did in the 60s and 70s.

There’s finite resources.

You need to balance what can be achieved here with what can be achieved elsewhere.

To me there’s more to be gained elsewhere, particularly as it will bring in more TV money.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Reality. And no they haven't. Despite premiership wins the fanbases of a third of the Sydney clubs is tiny. And this is holding the game back from growth into big city opportunities. If the nrl had a 20 club ten year strategy you could live with carry these small clubs for nostalgia purposes, but they don't and the game can't afford to be held back any longer.

There’s more to consider than current fan bases.

Look at the tigers, huge fan base, but they’re a basket case of a club with 3 home grounds.

Roosters have a small crowd fan base but always rate well on TV. Are the roosters small? I don’t think so. Have rich backers & are located strategically for corporate support.

 

[Stallion]

Reality. And no they haven't. Despite premiership wins the fanbases of a third of the Sydney clubs is tiny. And this is holding the game back from growth into big city opportunities. If the nrl had a 20 club ten year strategy you could live with carry these small clubs for nostalgia purposes, but they don't and the game can't afford to be held back any longer.

Maybe they do?

 

[Perth Red]

Haha, yeh Maybe they do.

 

[The Great Dane]

If 2 of those teams being dropped are moving to central coast & Wollongong.

Otherwise I think it would be too much.

Yeah definitely like the idea of a national second tier, more important than a national reserve grade.

I'm talking over a 30+ year time frame, so no removing 4 teams out of Sydney over a 30 year time isn't to much.

I wouldn't relocate teams (relocation isn't suitable for needs), but I also wouldn't add clubs in Wollongong or on the CC either though for two reasons-

1. They rely on the Sydney market to top up their corporate and sponsorship income, which isn't sustainable in the NRLs' case.

2. As NRL grows it'll gain access to larger and/or more strategic markets, and Wollongong and the CC simply won't be able to compete with that (just like they can't compete with Brisbane, Perth, NZ, Adelaide, etc).

Allowing the CC and the Gong into the NRL would be stupid.

 

[The Great Dane]

When Townsville gets done virtually all non Sydney teams will have high quality, modern stadia. Where as only half the Sydney teams can say the same.

LOL, Canberras' repurposed athletics stadium that was built in the 1970's, is completely unsuitable for Canberras' climate, is in the middle of nowhere, and is effectively designed as a giant concrete wind tunnel says hi.

By the way good luck getting federal funding for any new stadium in Canberra like Townsville got for their classic case of pork barreling of a stadium, also fat chance of getting help from the NRL to lobby for it as they have consistently failed to do so when all it would take is a couple of letters and a meeting or two.

The longer it takes for the Stadium to come back on the agenda the more time Barr has to try to force it into being built as a "multipurpose stadium", which in Barrs case means a stadium built to the exact specifications that the AFL demand, in which case the Raiders and the Brumbies would be better off staying out at Bruce stadium, which is exactly what they should do if Barr gets his way and builds a multipurpose instead of the purpose built rectangular stadium that this city needs and the community keeps asking for.
If it gets built as multipurpose then f##k it, stay at Bruce and force this new stadium to become a giant white elephant that hosts at best 3.5 football games, and a handful of cricket matches and concerts a year until the government is forced to completely gut and rebuild the bastard to justify it's existence.
And if they wont rebuild it and knock down Bruce to try and force us to move then f##k it, take all our games back to Seiffert or on the road until a suitable stadium becomes available.

I really wish that the Raiders would at least look into building our own stadium so that we'd control our own destiny and not be beholden to the whim of others (such as AFL stooges like Barr), but that'll never happen as like all NRL clubs they don't have the vision to talk to developers and see if it's feasible let alone have the will to tighten the belt for an extended period of time to make it possible.
Rant over, sorry.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

There’s finite resources.

You need to balance what can be achieved here with what can be achieved elsewhere.

To me there’s more to be gained elsewhere, particularly as it will bring in more TV money.

Pretty much this...

One team in NZ has meant the ARLC can charge a motza for TV rights in that market. A team in perth will be infinitely more valuable than ANOTHER outer Sydney club.

The focus on Sydney over other market is even damaging the the bottom line of Sydney clubs; the club grant is substantially lower than it could be....

 

[Perth Red]

LOL, Canberras' repurposed athletics stadium that was built in the 1970's, is completely unsuitable for Canberras' climate, is in the middle of nowhere, and is effectively designed as a giant concrete wind tunnel says hi.

By the way good luck getting federal funding for any new stadium in Canberra like Townsville got for their classic case of pork barreling of a stadium, also fat chance of getting help from the NRL to lobby for it as they have consistently failed to do so when all it would take is a couple of letters and a meeting or two.

The longer it takes for the Stadium to come back on the agenda the more time Barr has to try to force it into being built as a "multipurpose stadium", which in Barrs case means a stadium built to the exact specifications that the AFL demand, in which case the Raiders and the Brumbies would be better off staying out at Bruce stadium, which is exactly what they should do if Barr gets his way and builds a multipurpose instead of the purpose built rectangular stadium that this city needs and the community keeps asking for.
If it gets built as multipurpose then f##k it, stay at Bruce and force this new stadium to become a giant white elephant that hosts at best 3.5 football games, and a handful of cricket matches and concerts a year until the government is forced to completely gut and rebuild the bastard to justify it's existence.
And if they wont rebuild it and knock down Bruce to try and force us to move then f##k it, take all our games back to Seiffert or on the road until a suitable stadium becomes available.

I really wish that the Raiders would at least look into building our own stadium so that we'd control our own destiny and not be beholden to the whim of others (such as AFL stooges like Barr), but that'll never happen as like all NRL clubs they don't have the vision to talk to developers and see if it's feasible let alone have the will to tighten the belt for an extended period of time to make it possible.
Rant over, sorry.

I was surprised how long it took to get to raiders stadium from cbd when I went to a game there last year, it was dark so couldn't see much but it seemed to be in the middle of a commercial or university campus? Didn't seem to be much around it. I was impressed by the food though! Bloody freezing, bought a beanie, they must do a good trade in wooly hats. I like you could stand on that terrace bit, made it feel like a uk ground In the days of winter RL lol.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I'm talking over a 30+ year time frame, so no removing 4 teams out of Sydney over a 30 year time isn't to much.

I wouldn't relocate teams (relocation isn't suitable for needs), but I also wouldn't add clubs in Wollongong or on the CC either though for two reasons-

1. They rely on the Sydney market to top up their corporate and sponsorship income, which isn't sustainable in the NRLs' case.

2. As NRL grows it'll gain access to larger and/or more strategic markets, and Wollongong and the CC simply won't be able to compete with that (just like they can't compete with Brisbane, Perth, NZ, Adelaide, etc).

Allowing the CC and the Gong into the NRL would be stupid.

Hmm..

The dragons already have one foot in Wollongong, not sure I see it as “allowing them in”

It’s just a better distribution of current assets.

Plus the central coast has proven to be a fertile ground for roosters crowds.

Even if it isn’t a long term fix it’s a much better short to medium term option. Similarly with tigers going to Campbelltown.

We need to be realistic here, you might be talking your perfect option but it’s not going to happen. Current teams will be offered relocation before they are killed off, the teams wield a lot of power under the current NRL structure.

Other thing I’d do is reduce supply of overall games in the Sydney market. No team can have more than 10 home games in Sydney. Reduced supply will be good for demand & will help grow the game elsewhere.

I see absolutely no reason a relocation to Adelaide or Perth couldn’t work anyway. There’s no significant rugby league history in the markets, and relocation has worked in Australia. Takes time but with more money in sports now it will be a lot easier.

 

[herbert henry1908]

LOL, Canberras' repurposed athletics stadium that was built in the 1970's, is completely unsuitable for Canberras' climate, is in the middle of nowhere, and is effectively designed as a giant concrete wind tunnel says hi.

By the way good luck getting federal funding for any new stadium in Canberra like Townsville got for their classic case of pork barreling of a stadium, also fat chance of getting help from the NRL to lobby for it as they have consistently failed to do so when all it would take is a couple of letters and a meeting or two.

The longer it takes for the Stadium to come back on the agenda the more time Barr has to try to force it into being built as a "multipurpose stadium", which in Barrs case means a stadium built to the exact specifications that the AFL demand, in which case the Raiders and the Brumbies would be better off staying out at Bruce stadium, which is exactly what they should do if Barr gets his way and builds a multipurpose instead of the purpose built rectangular stadium that this city needs and the community keeps asking for.
If it gets built as multipurpose then f##k it, stay at Bruce and force this new stadium to become a giant white elephant that hosts at best 3.5 football games, and a handful of cricket matches and concerts a year until the government is forced to completely gut and rebuild the bastard to justify it's existence.
And if they wont rebuild it and knock down Bruce to try and force us to move then f##k it, take all our games back to Seiffert or on the road until a suitable stadium becomes available.

I really wish that the Raiders would at least look into building our own stadium so that we'd control our own destiny and not be beholden to the whim of others (such as AFL stooges like Barr), but that'll never happen as like all NRL clubs they don't have the vision to talk to developers and see if it's feasible let alone have the will to tighten the belt for an extended period of time to make it possible.
Rant over, sorry.

Did say “virtually all teams”

Am aware of the struggle in Canberra.

Surely Barr won’t be around forever though? He probably has federal aspirations.

 

[CC_Roosters]

LOL, Canberras' repurposed athletics stadium that was built in the 1970's, is completely unsuitable for Canberras' climate, is in the middle of nowhere, and is effectively designed as a giant concrete wind tunnel says hi.

By the way good luck getting federal funding for any new stadium in Canberra like Townsville got for their classic case of pork barreling of a stadium, also fat chance of getting help from the NRL to lobby for it as they have consistently failed to do so when all it would take is a couple of letters and a meeting or two.

The longer it takes for the Stadium to come back on the agenda the more time Barr has to try to force it into being built as a "multipurpose stadium", which in Barrs case means a stadium built to the exact specifications that the AFL demand, in which case the Raiders and the Brumbies would be better off staying out at Bruce stadium, which is exactly what they should do if Barr gets his way and builds a multipurpose instead of the purpose built rectangular stadium that this city needs and the community keeps asking for.
If it gets built as multipurpose then f##k it, stay at Bruce and force this new stadium to become a giant white elephant that hosts at best 3.5 football games, and a handful of cricket matches and concerts a year until the government is forced to completely gut and rebuild the bastard to justify it's existence.
And if they wont rebuild it and knock down Bruce to try and force us to move then f##k it, take all our games back to Seiffert or on the road until a suitable stadium becomes available.

I really wish that the Raiders would at least look into building our own stadium so that we'd control our own destiny and not be beholden to the whim of others (such as AFL stooges like Barr), but that'll never happen as like all NRL clubs they don't have the vision to talk to developers and see if it's feasible let alone have the will to tighten the belt for an extended period of time to make it possible.
Rant over, sorry.

Has a investment in a stadium ever been considered by the Raiders group? Considering their wealth and assets it would seem a no brained to me. I hate the way stadia are handled in this country, unbelievable that Cronulla are the only ones who own their own ground.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Has a investment in a stadium ever been considered by the Raiders group? Considering their wealth and assets it would seem a no brained to me. I hate the way stadia are handled in this country, unbelievable that Cronulla are the only ones who own their own ground.

I know the raiders are wealthy but realistically they would probably only be looking at a minority stake in a stadium. Australian building costs being what they are and all.

Surely they’d want a 25k seat stadium minimum? So say $250m odd going off the cost of Parramatta. How much could the raiders contribute? Would even 10% be feasible?

 

[Perth Red]

Not so. The established Sydney clubs have an historical and established presence. The newer clubs though in towns/cities have less historical advantage but a locality advantage. The parochialism is already established between Sydney clubs and this is an advantage in the market place. Another factor not mentioned is Sydneys population is growing. In fact getting bigger in the inner city areas with high density living.

despite this population growth Sydney crowds are down 20% in last 5 years. It seems the new people moving to Sydney don't care for nrl.

 

[Perth Red]

I know the raiders are wealthy but realistically they would probably only be looking at a minority stake in a stadium. Australian building costs being what they are and all.

Surely they’d want a 25k seat stadium minimum? So say $250m odd going off the cost of Parramatta. How much could the raiders contribute? Would even 10% be feasible?

Depends, doesn't have to be a lump sum, a 40 year mortgage might be feasible. Stadiums can turn a profit if well utilised. Raiders group have the assets to get a capital investment loan I'd have thought. Just a shame a fricking simple stadium in this country costs triple anywhere else in the world!