Gold Coast Bears/Nth Sydney/Gosford

[axl rose]

Balmain have no money and little corporate backing, they'd be gone by now if it wasn't for Wests keeping the Wests Tigers afloat. Stallion claiming they could break away from the one thing

Balmain looked at relocating to Gosford in the early 90s, they played a game or two in Melbourne as well. That would have been a much better option than struggling in Balmain, especially with the yuppification of the area.

 

[Stallion]

Balmain looked at relocating to Gosford in the early 90s, they played a game or two in Melbourne as well. That would have been a much better option than struggling in Balmain, especially with the yuppification of the area.

I actually think rugby league should be open to all demographics.
Perhaps this is where our game is going wrong?
It seems to eliminate a certain type of person from its fan base without persuing. Pretty sure many "Fabien socialist" types followed the Balmain Tigers .
Just a thought. I believe rugby league is an attractive enough sport to engage all types of fans.

 

[Stormwarrior82]

Australia ,one of the most expansive nations on earth with a very high percentage of its population in both Sydney and Melbourne. Go figure! Clubs should be where the people are! That makes sense! Its the way things are in OZ. You should respect that.
Where did you get the junior numbers myth!? Numbers, particularly at boy level have dropped significantly. If your figures are including female participation then that's misleading. You continue do go on your path of destruction for the core of this vulnerable game in Sydney. The established clubs and names are a massive advantage on other codes! And you want to throw that out?! Amazing lack of respect for the origins of a world class competition. Show some respect. Funnily enough I have no issue with expansion yet you would be happy with killing off clubs instead of the exponential growth gained for the code with additional clubs? Incredible!

So your saying if Sydney have 9 teams brisbane should have 5/6? Melbourne 7/8? Seems your comp would be interesting.

You are proposing to expand the Nrl by adding more Sydney based teams? Do you realize how biased and warped that thinking is? There is history in a lot of clubs and teams. But history doesn’t pay the bills. Balmains history doesn’t pay West Tigers bills and neither does the balmain emblem. If you love the history and the clubs stories so much watch nsw Cup. History is a bonus for a club, not a reason to be in the Nrl. There are a lot of factors that come into play for a club to be successful. Financial security, junior players, junior league pathways, membership base, facilities, CoE, club house/rsl and history.

Sydney teams have been told to keep up or lookout. And so they should. It’s that simple. Clubs have never had so much money from the Nrl and if they can’t keep up, move them on.

 

[Stallion]

So your saying if Sydney have 9 teams brisbane should have 5/6? Melbourne 7/8? Seems your comp would be interesting.

You are proposing to expand the Nrl by adding more Sydney based teams? Do you realize how biased and warped that thinking is? There is history in a lot of clubs and teams. But history doesn’t pay the bills. Balmains history doesn’t pay West Tigers bills and neither does the balmain emblem. If you love the history and the clubs stories so much watch nsw Cup. History is a bonus for a club, not a reason to be in the Nrl. There are a lot of factors that come into play for a club to be successful. Financial security, junior players, junior league pathways, membership base, facilities, CoE, club house/rsl and history.

Sydney teams have been told to keep up or lookout. And so they should. It’s that simple. Clubs have never had so much money from the Nrl and if they can’t keep up, move them on.[/QUOTE

I am putting forward the logic that maintaining the amount of clubs in a very populated city is good business. Both the AFL and NRL should be doing this. In fact the AFL is doing it better than the NRL with 10 clubs in a city of 1million less people! These people running the AFL know what a mistake it would be for them to dilute the presence of their code in Melbourne. Simple as that! Genuine expansion in the form of additional clubs is far more prudent than the slash and burn approach seen from some on this thread.
As time goes on and the expansion areas such as Melbourne , Perth, Adelaide etc are further developed then the time for revisiting the status quo in Sydney is appropriate. But not till the expansion areas are well and truly established with eyes to more than one club in each expansion city. Otherwise if you cut the core of the game at its base in Sydney too early you will have no growth and a decline of the code as a result. Pissing off existing fans is not a good idea. Look at the drop off in North Sydney and what happened when South Sydney were kicked out![/QUOTE]

 

[Stormwarrior82]

I am putting forward the logic that maintaining the amount of clubs in a very populated city is good business. Both the AFL and NRL should be doing this. In fact the AFL is doing it better than the NRL with 10 clubs in a city of 1million less people! These people running the AFL know what a mistake it would be for them to dilute the presence of their code in Melbourne. Simple as that! Genuine expansion in the form of additional clubs is far more prudent than the slash and burn approach seen from some on this thread.
As time goes on and the expansion areas such as Melbourne , Perth, Adelaide etc are further developed then the time for revisiting the status quo in Sydney is appropriate. But not till the expansion areas are well and truly established with eyes to more than one club in each expansion city. Otherwise if you cut the core of the game at its base in Sydney too early you will have no growth and a decline of the code as a result. Pissing off existing fans is not a good idea. Look at the drop off in North Sydney and what happened when South Sydney were kicked out!

You said it should go from 9 to 10 Sydney clubs by introducing North Sydney bears.

Do you know how the brisbane lions were formed? Or swans for that matter? Using afl as a example doesn’t help your point.

 

[Stallion]

Do you know how the brisbane lions were formed? Or swans for that matter? Using afl as a example doesn’t help your point.

Yes I do. And if you read my previous posts, I believe that the long lost Wests Magpies can find relevance in the form of a South Australian Magpies team as one of the constructive contributors informed that South Australia's logo is the magpie. Another wise move would be to have the Bears come out of hibernation on the Central Coast. Another win/win. These are similar tacts that were used by the AFL. My point is that you don't have to discard the history and fabric of the origins of the code to expand. Exponential growth with appropriate moves in Sydney when the time is right is the way to go. The time is not right at this stage for any dismembering of the top flight in Sydney. Way too much too lose!

 

[Stormwarrior82]

Yes I do. And if you read my previous posts, I believe that the long lost Wests Magpies can find relevance in the form of a South Australian Magpies team as one of the constructive contributors informed that South Australia's logo is the magpie. Another wise move would be to have the Bears come out of hibernation on the Central Coast. Another win/win. These are similar tacts that were used by the AFL. My point is that you don't have to discard the history and fabric of the origins of the code to expand. Exponential growth with appropriate moves in Sydney when the time is right is the way to go. The time is not right at this stage for any dismembering of the top flight in Sydney. Way too much too lose!

I feel the bears best and only chance would be to move to Adelaide.

Balmain however are a basket case and West’s could eventually take over West Tigers and revert back to wests. Only then a relocation to Adelaide could work. But would it be smart to be the magpies? Anyone heard of Collingwood?

As I have said before, the bears left the central coast. And now the roosters have it, and doing a good job by the looks. Do you think Politis will give it back to the bears? You’re dreaming. The bears have chopped and changed that much that they are beginning to lose there way.

 

[taipan]

I can accept that. But clubs right now have never had it better. It was less than 15 yrs ago that clubs were funding the salary cap themselves. With all the money the clubs are receiving you have to admit that if a club can’t survive with all this money they don’t deserve to be in the comp. yes they have history but so do a lot of clubs. Brisbane football clubs have a lot of history too but no one cares about them when the arl Expanded. Im happy for all the clubs currently in the Nrl and in Sydney to stay. But if the clubs don’t improve there financial situation with all the money they get, I feel it would be best for the club to over time to merge or relocate. It would be done over a 5 yr period where more and more games go to the new location etc.

Case and point, the bears. All they want is to be in the Nrl at any cost. They would white ant any club to get that chance. If a current club can’t survive. They would have to change there future plans. Simple as that.

Well no they won't have it better til next year ,when the big grants kick in.
Even Storm exec made the comment,they expect to at least beak even with the new grant.

1) Some clubs have been overspending on their football dept.that is to be capped.
2) the additional 30% the clubs receive over and above the base grant iOS for marketing and expenditure to grow their club and its fan base.They were restricted in many cases finiancially in the past, either by bad management,or just not enough money top do the job properly.IOW the Storm would be struggling without the next grant plus 30%
3)Sydney geographically is a much bigger city and interwoven terrain that does not exist in Melbourne,olus an abysmal transport system thrown in.That is not the fault of the clubs, that is the fault of prior Govts lack of planning.
4)I have always stated if a club is in continual financial trouble even with the new grant, then they deserve to merge or relocate.But I stress, that is an open door for other codes.Even the A League is looking at a stadium in the shire ($350m).The notion that fans losing a club ,will follow another was shown when Souths were flicked, no other clubs took up the slack in any numbers.Who benefitted ? It's not hard to guess.I wish it were so simple.The knights were financial basket cases also on and of.If they were flicked a huge vacuum opens up in that area.

From what I have seen and heard, most clubs have either professional people involved at board level, strong leagues clubs backing them, big fan bases, so they should be able to kick butt from next year.

 

[taipan]

These big clubs DO break even, claiming a loss is just an accounting trick...

They know it will all be covered by the Leagues club, but they announce the number minus this as a way of leveraging the ARLC into giving them more money or some other condition.

Profit/loss usually means little if anything to clubs in this league.

Of course.Thanks to their Licensed clubs pouring in large sums has always been the case.The Eels have yet to sign up a major sponsor,thatt is revenue missed.Of course they will have the new stadium and will be laughing all the way to the bank.
The Dogs also required huge sums from their Licensed clubs ,yet still came up with their recent situation.

But really in this day and age and the 130% grants from 2018,.NRL clubs should be relying less and less on Licensed clubs via poker machines, and more than a few are working toward that end.
It should be down to grants/tikcket revenue/memberships/merchandise sales/marekting and promoand sponsorships the Rabbitohs have shown can work.SAnd most importantly decent infrastructure to attract fans and decent scheduling.
Of course Licensed clubs should then make up a smaller shortfall.
Clubs have become lazy, because they know the Licensed club in some cases, is there as a backstop.

It's time they and the NRL got off their lazy backsides and sold and promoted the code.the marketing of the game has been either benign or non existent at times.

 

[Stormwarrior82]

Well no they won't have it better til next year ,when the big grants kick in.
Even Storm exec made the comment,they expect to at least beak even with the new grant.

1) Some clubs have been overspending on their football dept.that is to be capped.
2) the additional 30% the clubs receive over and above the base grant iOS for marketing and expenditure to grow their club and its fan base.They were restricted in many cases finiancially in the past, either by bad management,or just not enough money top do the job properly.IOW the Storm would be struggling without the next grant plus 30%
3)Sydney geographically is a much bigger city and interwoven terrain that does not exist in Melbourne,olus an abysmal transport system thrown in.That is not the fault of the clubs, that is the fault of prior Govts lack of planning.
4)I have always stated if a club is in continual financial trouble even with the new grant, then they deserve to merge or relocate.But I stress, that is an open door for other codes.Even the A League is looking at a stadium in the shire ($350m).The notion that fans losing a club ,will follow another was shown when Souths were flicked, no other clubs took up the slack in any numbers.Who benefitted ? It's not hard to guess.I wish it were so simple.The knights were financial basket cases also on and of.If they were flicked a huge vacuum opens up in that area.

From what I have seen and heard, most clubs have either professional people involved at board level, strong leagues clubs backing them, big fan bases, so they should be able to kick butt from next year.

You got me there. The football year finishes on the 31st October right? I should of said in 24 days clubs will be paid better than they ever had.

Yes storm continually spend massive amounts on the football department. So football dept cap spending limit will affect them more than most.

1) agree
2) the additional 30% is a little bit less than $3mil. Clubs just need to show that $3 mil is being spent on those allocated departments. Storm have done well in the marketing/promotional/member area, but that should be expected given the year they had.
3) yes transport is a problem for Sydney. Can’t do to much about that.
4) there is no way the A league will get a $350 mil stadium built for them with the sharks down the road. Maybe the gov will help build sharks stadium for them. Merging or relocating is not opening doors for other codes if done correctly. All clubs outside of Sydney are strategically important I feel so only Sydney clubs need to pick up there game.

I would want nothing more than to hear next year that all clubs have made massive financial strides and are all making profits or close enough to. Because that will mean we are closer to genuine expansion.

 

[Stormwarrior82]

Of course.Thanks to their Licensed clubs pouring in large sums has always been the case.The Eels have yet to sign up a major sponsor,thatt is revenue missed.Of course they will have the new stadium and will be laughing all the way to the bank.
The Dogs also required huge sums from their Licensed clubs ,yet still came up with their recent situation.

But really in this day and age and the 130% grants from 2018,.NRL clubs should be relying less and less on Licensed clubs via poker machines, and more than a few are working toward that end.
It should be down to grants/tikcket revenue/memberships/merchandise sales/marekting and promoand sponsorships the Rabbitohs have shown can work.SAnd most importantly decent infrastructure to attract fans and decent scheduling.
Of course Licensed clubs should then make up a smaller shortfall.
Clubs have become lazy, because they know the Licensed club in some cases, is there as a backstop.

It's time they and the NRL got off their lazy backsides and sold and promoted the code.the marketing of the game has been either benign or non existent at times.

Remember this licensed club you speak off uses the Nrls club license/name/history to promote itself. Parramatta leagues club, Penrith leagues club are both benefiting from inclusion of the football team in the Nrl and use of the clubs name. Should the Nrl introduce a intellectual property tax on these leagues clubs?

Yes I agree clubs should generate there own money through merch, tickets, memberships and sponsorships. But up until now, clubs for years have never really cared about that.

Hopefully Nrls media dept helps with the promotion side of things and the extra grant money goes towards club marketing/membership programs and get the fans in the stands.

 

[taipan]

Remember this licensed club you speak off uses the Nrls club license/name/history to promote itself. Parramatta leagues club, Penrith leagues club are both benefiting from inclusion of the football team in the Nrl and use of the clubs name. Should the Nrl introduce a intellectual property tax on these leagues clubs?

Yes I agree clubs should generate there own money through merch, tickets, memberships and sponsorships. But up until now, clubs for years have never really cared about that.

Hopefully Nrls media dept helps with the promotion side of things and the extra grant money goes towards club marketing/membership programs and get the fans in the stands.

I'll add one thing.Many years ago or not that long ago to be precise,League clubs provided the overwhelming bulk of financing for the 1st grade team.Then State Govts came in ,one under Carr ,brought in turnover tax and chewed into the profits somewhat.Yes some still do make heaps.
The point I'm trying to make ,this sort of thing could happen again, with PC Govts.

And where I agree with you, clubs on that basis should be aiming to be self sufficient, and with a new Parramtta stadium ,a rectangular ANZ,and much improved Sydney fringe clubs infrastructure ,this will go a hell of a way for clubs to in fact become independent of poker machine profits.

And still the Licensed clubs can benefit from backing the NRL teams, by patronage and financing lower grades and juniors.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Didnt realize that the Magpie was state logo of South Australia! Not bad. I dont think its wise to carve up Balmain Campbelltown. This area should be represented in the top flight. South Australian Magpies!? It has some logic to it Doctor !

Balmain-Campbeltown is already a carve up....

You have one inner city suburb and a region right down in the South West. There is no geographic continuity, not cultural links and no reason for then to be held by the same team beyond the need for a merge following SuperLeague.

If youre going to even TRY bringing the Balmain name back, the best you could hope for is "Balmain-Ashfield" (At least they are next to each other, and it is Wests Ashfield funding the club) or "Balmain-North Sydney" (if the Bears group are willing to drop the name and just invest in a current team, taking over Balmain LC's shares would be their way in)

But, if either of these were to happen, Wests would be abandoning Campbeltown/SW to Souths/Dogs/Panthers.

The better model for WTs would be holding 8 games at the new Hombush ground, taking 4 games to Campbeltown and leaving Leichhardt in the 70s where it belongs...

 

[Stallion]

Balmain-Campbeltown is already a carve up....

You have one inner city suburb and a region right down in the South West. There is no geographic continuity, not cultural links and no reason for then to be held by the same team beyond the need for a merge following SuperLeague.

If youre going to even TRY bringing the Balmain name back, the best you could hope for is "Balmain-Ashfield" (At least they are next to each other, and it is Wests Ashfield funding the club) or "Balmain-North Sydney" (if the Bears group are willing to drop the name and just invest in a current team, taking over Balmain LC's shares would be their way in)

But, if either of these were to happen, Wests would be abandoning Campbeltown/SW to Souths/Dogs/Panthers.

The better model for WTs would be holding 8 games at the new Hombush ground, taking 4 games to Campbeltown and leaving Leichhardt in the 70s where it belongs...

Disastrous stuff Doctor. And I thought u were improving! St George Illawarra have joined and its working. Mind you their were some links both in colours and player history. Even the proposed Central Coast Bears would have a similar geographical set up. However Balmain Cambelltown would suffice if the Campbelltown people sought representation in the top flight. They would get ownership with such a name. You make a decent point about Balmain Ashfield but I dont think Ashfield is a major growth area like Campbelltown. I'm suggesting that the Wests Magpies become linked with an expansion club such as South Australian Magpies. Guarantee the Magpie fans would like some place in the top flight rather than no place as seen nowadays.

 

[T-Boon]

Remember this licensed club you speak off uses the Nrls club license/name/history to promote itself. Parramatta leagues club, Penrith leagues club are both benefiting from inclusion of the football team in the Nrl and use of the clubs name. Should the Nrl introduce a intellectual property tax on these leagues clubs?

Exactly.
If the licensed clubs aren't going to be spending money on the football club, where is the profits going to go? Should the government tax them more and then spread the money out to, say AFL?

 

[Perth Red]

Exactly.
If the licensed clubs aren't going to be spending money on the football club, where is the profits going to go? Should the government tax them more and then spread the money out to, say AFL?

Considering they get tax breaks and are allowed to screw people out of their hard earned maybe they could put more back into the community rather than millions into a professional sports club?

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

I feel the bears best and only chance would be to move to Adelaide.

Balmain however are a basket case and West’s could eventually take over West Tigers and revert back to wests. Only then a relocation to Adelaide could work. But would it be smart to be the magpies? Anyone heard of Collingwood?

As I have said before, the bears left the central coast. And now the roosters have it, and doing a good job by the looks. Do you think Politis will give it back to the bears? You’re dreaming. The bears have chopped and changed that much that they are beginning to lose there way.

Wests have stated that they arent interested in full ownership of WTs.

When Balmain collapse, they will be looking for a new partnership. If the Norths Group is willing to give up on the Bears name, this could be a place for them to step back into the NRL.

Given Wests Campbeltown dont contribute to the Tigers, it would be resonable for Wests Ashfield to drop that area and just revert back to the Inner West. Then, with the Norths connection (or even without it), they could loo at

Disastrous stuff Doctor. And I thought u were improving! St George Illawarra have joined and its working. Mind you their were some links both in colours and player history. Even the proposed Central Coast Bears would have a similar geographical set up. However Balmain Cambelltown would suffice if the Campbelltown people sought representation in the top flight. They would get ownership with such a name. You make a decent point about Balmain Ashfield but I dont think Ashfield is a major growth area like Campbelltown. I'm suggesting that the Wests Magpies become linked with an expansion club such as South Australian Magpies. Guarantee the Magpie fans would like some place in the top flight rather than no place as seen nowadays.

So an east Sydney suburb and a region in the South-West outskits of the city (a combo with half a dozen teams sitting in the middle) is perfect just "because".

But combining that inner city area with the apparently unrepresented North Sydney, while giving the SW region to a team in the south west is just too crazy because "change is scary"?

 

[Stallion]

I feel the bears best and only chance would be to move to Adelaide.

Balmain however are a basket case and West’s could eventually take over West Tigers and revert back to wests. Only then a relocation to Adelaide could work. But would it be smart to be the magpies? Anyone heard of Collingwood?

As I have said before, the bears left the central coast. And now the roosters have it, and doing a good job by the looks. Do you think Politis will give it back to the bears? You’re dreaming. The bears have chopped and changed that much that they are beginning to lose there way.

Im a Rooster fan and dont like Central Coast move one bit! They got a good crowd their when they hosted the defenfing premiers. Sn easy game t

Wests have stated that they arent interested in full ownership of WTs.

When Balmain collapse, they will be looking for a new partnership. If the Norths Group is willing to give up on the Bears name, this could be a place for them to step back into the NRL.

Given Wests Campbeltown dont contribute to the Tigers, it would be resonable for Wests Ashfield to drop that area and just revert back to the Inner West. Then, with the Norths connection (or even without it), they could loo at



So an east Sydney suburb and a region in the South-West outskits of the city (a combo with half a dozen teams sitting in the middle) is perfect just "because".

But combining that inner city area with the apparently unrepresented North Sydney, while giving the SW region to a team in the south west is just too crazy because "change is scary"?

This scenario, though not ideal is courtesy of a rushed and unfair superleague agreement. You underestimate the value of established market brands of the existing longtime Sydney clubs have all over Australia let alone in Sydney. CLUBS and fans would rather a place in the sun than not. Simple as that. Blame those thoughtless superleague people for the mess. Granted the ARL let the game down but the main thrust of stuffing up the code was from Superleague ideology that dismissed the value of history , tradition and existing markets earnt over a long period of time with generational support as well!

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

This scenario, though not ideal is courtesy of a rushed and unfair superleague agreement. You underestimate the value of established market brands of the existing longtime Sydney clubs have all over Australia let alone in Sydney. CLUBS and fans would rather a place in the sun than not. Simple as that. Blame those thoughtless superleague people for the mess. Granted the ARL let the game down but the main thrust of stuffing up the code was from Superleague ideology that dismissed the value of history , tradition and existing markets earnt over a long period of time with generational support as well!

Thats what I'M saying!!! it was a shitty combination of clubs, but it is fixable:

- Wests ditch Liechardt and represent the Inner west from Parra/ANZ, while committing to Campbeltown as well.
OR
- Wests abandon Campbeltown to a more appropriate team, and focus on the Inner Wests/North Sydney/maybe Central coast too.

 

[Stallion]

Thats what I'M saying!!! it was a shitty combination of clubs, but it is fixable:

- Wests ditch Liechardt and represent the Inner west from Parra/ANZ, while committing to Campbeltown as well.
OR
- Wests abandon Campbeltown to a more appropriate team, and focus on the Inner Wests/North Sydney/maybe Central coast too.

Believe it or not the reason for the joining for Wests and Balmain was a colour synergy. BALMAIN would not lose much with adding white as it was a neutral colour. The News ltd created talk of the time was also having Balmain join with Parramatta which would have destroyed the iconic Balmain gold colour as the Eels gold was totally different and would have dominated. I have inside information on this logic. These things matter when clubs are being carved up, especially from a marketing and fans point of view.