Honest my ass !!!!!!!!!!

[MistyBee9-11]

By MFC....
True Roopy, some of it is luck of the draw. My point is that Labor was the group who put Australia in that place in the first place. From what I understand, the MAIN cause of high inflation,unemployment etc etc was the use of the Industrial Relations where they tagged wages growth to CPI increases. A crazy policy that led to huge inflation, reduction of jobs, businesses going arse up and all the associated consequences...

And it was Labor that broke the back of the twin evils of high inflation and high unemployment that was the legacy of 7 years of Frazer government. We could o back to Arthur Phillip if we want.

The point is not that the PM and senior ministerslied, it was what they lied about. This one was a hot election issue, at the forfront of the Coalition's election platform. It has massive implications for not only human rights isues, but border protection and regional issues. In comparison, Clinton lied about a headjob.

Who bloody cares weather he got a headjob or not?????

 

[Willow]

MFC:
"But im sure as u know coming from West Sydney and all (the heart of Sydney

),there are a lot of people who would without fear take up arms if they had the chance. The only thing that stops so many more shootouts from occuring in West Sydney is the repercussions. Crime is hardly contained at times, even with authority and all the repercussions and penalties in place."

Sorry if I ramble on about this but I cant see why we should use people as the reason why we should continue to prop up authority.

Sure, I know what you're talking about because I've seen it first hand. I agree, but that wasnt my point.

Moffo, if you dont mind me saying, you are in fact backing up the view that an authoritarian society has failed to live up to the promise of providing a free society. IMO, the only way we can achieve this is through community based organisation. Naturally, I'm not talking about something which will happen overnight.

We can stop the need for authority by simply removing the reasons why authority exists in the first place. One that basic principals of anarchy is to replace oppression with opportunity.


People are conditioned by their environment. Currently, we have a great many living in pretty ordinary conditions. They have inadequate resources. Education and job prospects are almost non existent...and this in one of the richest countries in the world. IMO, its completely unneccessary.

If you put people in an unhealthy environment, they will react violently.

A good examplearethe apes of the Congo and how they differ. For a long time studies have been made of the Bonobo apes and their Chimpanzee cousins from across the water. The Bonobo live in splendid conditions with ample food and while the Chimps live in harsh conditions with little prospect for regular food.

The Bonobo enjoy a free and highly developed society where there is no vertially no crime whatsover. They are more interested in having sex that having a fight.
The Chimpanzee society on the other hand is cruel and unforgiving. The weaker members of this society are ruled by murderous thugs.

5,000 years ago they were exactly the same species and were only separated due tothe flooding of a valley.

Sorry for side-tracking the discussion but as far as I can see governments have had their chance and have stuffed it all up. Unfortunately, we still have a way to go before they disappear forever.

 

[CyberKev006]

MFC

And its hard to blame the global economy on such problems. Liberal gov't at the moment has to detail with Japan and most of Asia in a recession, as well as the US in a major slump. But still, we have Inflation at about 3%, Unemployment at 7-8%,an impressively low CADand Interest rates at their lowest for 30years. Sure the world went through a global slowdown in the early 90s, but how come Liberal could deal with it when Labor could not?

A few points...

1. The main reason that Australia has fared so well to this point is that the bottom has dropped-out of our dollar which means that in the short term the country can perform solidly on the back of a domestic housing boom and increased tourism. Of course, while this is going on, the anaemic state of the Aus currency is leading-up to an inevitable backlash as the country's corporate and financial sectors struggle to compete globally. It is also worth noting that Costello himself (some three years ago) admitted on radio that the Coalition had been riding on the back of longtermLabor economic initiatives.
2. There'sno point in praising or blaming political parties for interest rates as they are largely out of government hands these days. The deregulation of thefinancial sector during the eighties, coupled with the Western predilection for laissez faire economics has ensured that the banking sector virtually runs itself these days. Accordingly, the lower interest rates of recent times are less a reflection on our financial stability as a nation, and more a sign of the banks' concerns at predicted financial slumps, hence their need to lure people into loan agreements before the hammer falls.
3. There is no way known that unemployment is genuinely operating at only 7-8%! This is utter nonsense and is indicative only of the government's penchant for manipulating figures. Australian unemployment figures have long been higher than the official figure and there is no solid evidence to suggest that unemployment is essentially lower than it was during the Fraser years. It helps no end when you are running Work for the Dole and other assorted training programs, and are having people declared employed while they are completing them.
4. In all honesty, none of this should be taken as an argument for a Labor government outperforming a Liberal one on financial lines. Nonetheless, the Liberal myth of superior economic management does not stand-up to intense scrutiny and is one of the biggest snowjobs ever to be hoisted on the Australian people!

Where is the 'debt truck' garaged these days, Johnnie? CyberKev

 

[Hass]

If you owned a company, would you like to see some people running the joint, or just hoping everything fell into place?

I'll stick up for all politicians here. Shit, we're all a bunch of greedy lying bastards. No matter what profession you are in, you'll find that truth. Politicians have shown some bloody initiative and put up their hand to try and see that somebody runs the country. And all they ever get is mountains of crap poured on top of them. Being in the eye of the public and having a direct effect on everybody means that their foibles are going to be noticed a lot more than yours or mine.

I say give the politicians a break. I'm just glad some people have the guts to run this country!

Cheers.

 

[Willow]

Hass:
I agree that politicians are sometimes unfairly targeted.
Despite my harsh opinion of politicians and authority, Ican assure that I donttake myself seriously enough to claim to have any answers. I can only observe what I see and try to make sense of the world around us.

There is no doubt that politicians make great sacrifices (or more importantly their families make the sacrifices) and I'm sure that most initially go into politics because 'they want to make a difference.'

However, politics by its very nature breeds a materialistic environment and in order to survive in that environment, the politicians must eventually put their their own ambitions first.
Inevitably, this striving for personal ambition will lead to the controlling of other human beings. In many cases, this control is not absolute but the normal result is thatpeople are struggling to get bywhile the more powerful members of society have more than they will everneed. This is the nature of the 'business' of politics.

With respect, the concept of politicians being there to serve the people went out the door with banks contributing to community well being.
The good pollies realise this and soon find something more rewarding to do.

 

[imported_feral dragon]

Dishonesty is rapidly becoming a prerequiset for the liberal party.
How about the latest the treasurer,Costello has now been found out.
He lied to the public of Australia and deliberately misled parliment about the extent of the loss of taxpayers money due to poor investment judgement.
A 2 billion dollar loss was reported by him to parliment,hang on a sec, pirate pete, that should read 3 billion dollars.
Costello deliberately approved going outside the guide lines of investing the taxpayers money in an effort to retrieve some losses due to the nosediving Aussie dollar on the world markets.Talk about sending good money after bad,a half decent punter knows to cut his losses and get the f**k out.
Which public company would employ a man who is in Hansards as loosing that much money.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Hang on, i hoped that this argument would stay as a wider discussion of politics in general. Sure, there are liberal and labor supporters in here. But lets be honest, both sides are full people who rip off the system. Just as many liberal people as labor people have been caught with their 'fingers in the till' in one way or another. To label one side as 'corrupt' and infer that the 'other option' is holier than thou is ridiculous.

As i said, i dont have a pref for either side. I was taught mainly on the liberal side of economics. Some of my ideas have changed after reading the comments of labor people on this board.All i suggest is that everyone opens their eyes just a little, and see that both forms of government have much tooffer, perhaps in different ways. It would be sad to think that there are people in here who vote out of 'tradition' or because their families voted one way. Its ever changing, and one side cannot always be right

Moffo.

 

This message has been deleted by the author.

 

[imported_feral dragon]

M.F.C
"Both Sides are full of people who rip off the system."
Yeah good one mate!
I now think it is time for you to start reading the editorials of our nations newspapers.That's newspapers not tabloids.
They are saying that Costello has added billions to our interest bill and his actions by the time the full consequences are realised will cost the country 6 billion dollars and as previously stated the interest bill will run on until our grand kids are old.
To say that labour lost money is all to true, the differance being they lost money on public expenditure and the associated budgetry blowouts of capital programs.
NEVER, EVER has labour lost money on a punt.
In the year '99-2000 the treasurer was warned that the 15% guidelines on his investments would be breached but pighead pirate pete just had to keep spending our money and now we shall find out (if he has the guts to answer parlimentry questions) Just what damage this turd has done to OUR country.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Feral, liberals obviously made a big blunder. Hell, they lost money. But come on, every time that ANY bloody party makes a new policy, its a punt. Will the changes work, and what will the consequences be. The libs were obviously trying to put the Aus gov't in a better position, but yeh, they failed. If u think that I am a person who is a liberal puppet you are sadly mistaken. As my last post stated, both sides are full of crooks and crims. I dont particularly like Pete Costello. But im broad minded enough to realise that both sides have made some major fumbles in the past. Im also broad minded enough to realise what some so called 'turds' from the labor party have done to our country.

Its a 2-way street. No side is high and mighty, esp in politics

Moffo.

 

[Willow]

MFC: "Hell, they lost money.."
I'd just like to add clarity to that statement.
They in fact lost other people's money.

Peter Costello broke the rules...manyMinisters have resigned or been sacked for committing lesser crimes.

 

This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.

 

[Willow]

More from MFC:
"Im also broad minded enough to realise what some so called 'turds' from the labor party have done to our country"

lol.... tsk tsk tsk....

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

LOL Willow...

And i suppose when labor governments mis-appropriated tax payer funds it 'wasn't' other peoples money. Every time the labor gov't gave handouts to every fat ass under the sun, i guess that WASN'T misappropriating other people money...Come on

Moffo

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Hows the piggerys going??

How bout Richo??

God gave us 2 eyes for a reason

Moffo.

 

[Willow]

Moffo...I thought you were 'broad minded' about this. Now before I offer you a share house in Glebe I think we should remember the following:
1.) Peter Costello is a bad financial manager..we now have the proof. If hisjob was on the line, do you think he would have been so flippant with all those billions? If I was in charge, I'd sack any accountant that was that care free with my money.
2.) John Howard is dishonest...as hard as he tries to weasel his way around the current mud slinging, there has been enough there to show that he is a common liar.
3.) THIS IS THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT...sorry for shouting but I thought if I said loudly once I'd not have to repeat it.

You can talk about the past years of the bad Labor 'turds' as much as you like but I for one look at who we are stuck with now and to be perfectly honest, its a not a pretty picture.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Willow, the point is that people in here are trying to isolate liberal gov't mistakes and make labor look like a bunch of untouchables. How else can we make comparisions unless we use the past?

Its ridiculous really. I can't believe how one eyed some people in here are. I said that liberals made a huge blunder with Pete Costello. Ummm...i dont exactly what else can be said about that. If they get sacked, well they get the arse. It really won't stop me from sleeping at night. Libs or Labor, couldnt care. Do people honestly believe that labor pollies have never been done in for making bad (or even worse, corrupt) decisions???

Anyways, ive had enough of arguing this for now. There are obviously quite a few life time labor voters in here who will never have a bar of soap of the liberals. Fine, i still won't loose sleep over it....Last election, i voted Liberal as i thought they had done a better job overall and left the economy in a stronger position. If Labor come up with something good next time, then yeah, id vote for them. Its an interesting proposal actually, to consider the issues before each election and not go blindly in with a party...

Anyways, 1/2 an hour sleep last night has left me in quite an irritable state. I'll leave now before i go totally off my rocker

Moffo.

 

[Willow]

MFC:

"Hows the piggerys going??"
Paul Keating did some dodgy dealing and ripped off an ex-business partner. He used his postion as treasurer, prime minister and an ex-prime minister to make money and later cover up the mess...not with much success as he was found out. What he did was wrong and typical of most powerful politicians. I have no idea how much this cost the tax payer but zero dollars springs to mind. I feel sorry for the ex-partner who lost a substantial amount of money.
I havevery little timefor Bob Hawke because he has been in recent years using his position as ex-PM to enhance his investments in Burma where human rights violations are adaily occuarance.

How bout Richo??
Graham Richardson was a snake. He was caught red handed using his position as Minister to have easy access to prostitutes and parties. Apart from that he is just your typical dodgy politician.
However, there are two good things about Graham Ricahrdson.

Firstly, he is a St George supporter who used his position as Immigration Minister tohelpGraeme Langlands out of the Philippines so he could have a back operation in Australia.

Secondly, Richardson was 'honest' enough to say that polticians are liars.

Qld Liberal Senator George Brandis, in his speech to the young Liberals (Jan 2001) said this:
"Graham Richardson summed it up with brutal frankness when, a few years ago, he gave his political autobiography the title "Whatever it Takes". The revelations we have recently heard before the Shepherdson Inquiry surprised no one who is close to politics. That is simply the way the Labor Party does business. That is not to say that there are not undesirables on our side of politics... undoubtedly there are. But there is a qualitative difference between that, and the culture of pervasive and institutionalised dishonesty which characterises our opponents. That culture of institutionalised dishonesty - that win at all costs mentality... heedless of legality, heedless of morality, heedless of truth... bears a direct relationship to the intellectual vacuum of which I have spoken. "

That was over a year ago. Quite clearly he believes that all pollies are subject to being dodgy but he singles out the Labor party as being controlled by 'institutionalised dishonesty' and that they are 'heedless of morality'...He can be excused for being biased, being a Qld Liberal and all. I'd say most Liberal voters agree with him and would consider Richo'sbuying ofprostitutes to beexamples of this vacuum of 'all thing good'.

I wonder what the good senator would say now given current revelations.We have amorally bankrupt Governer General (appointed and supported by the PM),a financiallyinept Treasurer anda PMwhose involvement in the'children overboard' affair must cast a shadow over this 'culture of morality' that the Liberal senator holds so dear.

"How else can we make comparisions unless we use the past?"
I totally agree. Thats why Peter Costello should at the very least have his job on the line. I've never heard of a Treasurer losing that many billions before but I am aware of a number of ministers and back benchers (form both sides of politics) losing their jobs for doing less.

"Do people honestly believe that labor pollies have never been done in for making bad (or even worse, corrupt) decisions???"
Can't help you there mate. I know that you probably said this because you have had, as you say, half an hours sleep.
Hope you've had more by the time you read this.
I get the impression that you believe Labor voters are so stupid because they keep voting for Labor come rain, hail or shine. While on the other hand, you voted Liberal because you are a swinging voter. From where I'm sitting, you seem to bringing up the past to support your own right wing perspective on the world. Don't get me wrong, its a perfectly valid way to conduct a debate. However, you also have to be prepared for others to use the same method and therefore come up with an opposite view.

I'm not here to question your voting preference, far from it. Myself, I wont vote unless there is someone who has a policy I agree with. I know thats illegal in Australia but stuff it...I don't personally see the point in voting for someone just because I have to.

Hope you caught up on a bit of lost snooze...

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Caught up now mate....10hrs does wonders

I do take most of your points. Going onto another huge argument about this will end up with us all chasing our tails.

In regards to the Labor/Swinging voter issue, i take that view because of people who i associate with. To say the least, im surrounded by people who vote labor and have done so for generations. The stupidity of this really is annoying, given the fact that they don't even consider the issues. Consequently, i have always taken it that there is a large number of lifelong Labor supporters. I think im right in saying that i live in the safest labor seat in Australia. My comments are a product of my environment! I know what u r saying though, i probably should be a more balanced in that area. I still believe that liberals are seen as the more 'progressive' party though. In terms of business and promoting change, as well as supporting the 'yuppie' cause. Perhaps thats why its not associated with the traditional and stoic image that labor has. Who knows...

Cheers,
Moffo.

 

[El Duque]

So why is it not surprising that most of the complaining here is coming from people who vote Labor regardless?
How can anyone just vote for one party their whole life?
Why is the Labor party so bedazzlingthat they seem to have people that can't not vote for them?
It's like people are obsessed with them.Quite strange really.No wonder the Labor party doesn't have to have any real policies leading into an election.