How things change

[Tommax25]

I hate this type of logic. Obviously I expect that we CAN win, but that doesn't mean that we WILL win. Losing to both those sides would be no disgrace either, and it wouldn't mean we are not deserving of being in the finals. The Dragons will not deserve to be there any more than us, that's for sure.

And the fact is, strange things happen in finals football. We might finish 8th, come against Manly and beat them (in fact, if this match eventuates I will be putting money on us). Then anything can happen, players coming back from injury, momentum starts building... you just don't know.

But to say that if we can't beat the Broncos and Storm then why bother even wanting to be in the finals? Please.

I hope you're rich, you may as well throw that money in a fire, at least you'll get some use out of it. Yeah, your draw does seem a little harsh but didn't teams request a lot of their fixtures for revenue/rivalries/SOO committments? Myabe admin is to blame. However, you did beat manly in round 2 at full strenght so even though you played them twice its not like you lost both

 

[Tommax25]

Dragons have had the best draw.

During origin we played 3 teams who only had 1 origin player missing I think, that being Brett Stewart, no REAL loss for the Sea Eagles.

Dragons got to play Broncos and Storm - teams with the most origin players.

And just a couple weeks ago they got the Dogs at their lowest this year. Their draw has been very kind.

manlys top try scorer, second top try scorer in nrl, perfect positionally at fullback and now involved in ballplaying/kicking more often. It is a 'real' loss

 

[K-Man]

I should have quoted Alex28, because my comment was in relation to his previous comment, not my actual belief.


Personally, I think we can beat the Storm on our day, because we match up well with them, and the Broncos is winnable too - though not so much away from home.

People who have the attitude that they cannot beat them, might want to consider what is the point of going to the semis?

That was all I was meaning.

Sorry my mistake, misinterpretation.

Anyway my point in general is just that the NRL is way too unpredictable these days for people to be making comments like "we can't beat them", "that game is a lock" etc, and that each match means little in the big scheme of things other than the 2 points - what I mean is, we could lose to the Storm and Broncos, but in my opinion if we still scrape into the finals I would never think "well if we didn't beat them there's no point being here really"..... anyone can beat anyone on their day.

Also the Eagles are highly overrated imo. I give them credit for being extremely consistent. They do the little things well all the time and they have enough class to get their wins. But their best is not much better than a lot of sides I don't believe. We can take them. We have already this season.

 

[K-Man]

I hope you're rich, you may as well throw that money in a fire, at least you'll get some use out of it. Yeah, your draw does seem a little harsh but didn't teams request a lot of their fixtures for revenue/rivalries/SOO committments? Myabe admin is to blame. However, you did beat manly in round 2 at full strenght so even though you played them twice its not like you lost both

That has to be one of the most contradictory posts I have ever read.

Surely you are not actually suggesting that the Eagles would be guaranteed to beat the Knights in a finals match, and at the same time admitting that we beat them when they were at full strength in round 2?

Manly don't scare me, and I honestly believe they don't scare the Knight's players or a few other teams either. Yes they are good, but to suggest that I "may as well throw that money in the fire" is laughable.

Manly can have the minor premiership for all I care, it won't change the fact that they are nowhere near as good as the Storm. Manly are a well drilled side who have had a decent run with injuries and played some good footy. I doubt they'll win the comp.

And I'm deadly serious, if we make the finals and come up against them I will back us at any reasonable odds.

Plus you seem to be using the argument that a harsh draw is not as harsh if you actually WIN the matches. What a joke, the fact that we won one and lost one against Manly is irrelevant, having to play so many of the top sides twice without them being affected by rep committments is unfair. We could win all 24 matches in the season, but a draw like that is still unfair.

 

[K-Man]

manlys top try scorer, second top try scorer in nrl, perfect positionally at fullback and now involved in ballplaying/kicking more often. It is a 'real' loss

Well if Stewart is as big a loss as you think then what do you make of the Dragons playing the Storm and Brocnos minus their gazillion million rep players?

It's really quite simple - if we had played the Storm without their rep players and/or the Roosters without theirs, and/or the Broncos without theirs - we probably would've won that/those matches in a canter. It's just a giveaway 2 points. Some teams got the freebie, some teams didn't.

But not only did we NOT get the free points, we actually had to play all those teams twice instead of just once at full strength. It's plain ridiculous.

If swapped our draw with the Dragons we would be sitting comfortably in the top 8 and they would be scrapping. Considering the future of our entire club can rest on things such as crowd attendance, it is a disgracefully unprofessional way for a competition to be organised.

 

[shane1970]

Didn't the NRL 'throw it out' to Clubs before the draw was done for this year asking them which team they would prefer to play in this years comp???? Or was that just for games who they wished to play as 'home' games!!!!! and then the NRL decided who played who twice.
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Sure our draw has been tough given certain circumstances but not once have 'the boys' been blown off the park this year - it's been a great effort and if we can sneak into the finals I believe that all teams above us would be looking over their shoulders thinking "We don't wanna play the Knights."
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I thought yesterday after we monstered the Eels - I couldn't believe that we were in the same position on the ladder as them. They have been terrible if not woeful all year and we have been really solid - and to be on the same spot on the ladder as them seemed ludicrous. However it was reality and those close losses throughout the year could have us like the Sharks last year. It's simple - we MUST win our next three games.

 

[Whats Doing]

Funny how I made this a topic of conversation 2 weeks ago and was told to "take one game at a time"!

 

[Belly07]

I have spoken a lot about how tough our draw is, and still stand by that.

Sure there are some games coming up in the next few weeks that we should be able to win, but it won't change the fact that we have had very little luck or favour in the draw this season.

What really disturbs me is just how likely it is that we will need to win one of our last 2 matches (Storm and Broncos) to make the finals, while other sides like the Tigers, Raiders, Dragons etc have much easier last 2 rounds.

Now this situation would be all fine and fair if every team had played every other team twice during the regular season such as the English Premier League. We could have no complaints about meeting Storm and Broncos because everyone had to play them twice as well.

But in reality it is just plain and simple bad luck that our must win games are against them. Plenty of other teams have only had to play Melbourne once this year, and basically that alone could be the reason we miss out on the finals.

That's not even going into the rest of my concerns about how we were never, ever given a match where we played big name teams missing their rep players (Dragons position on the table is a fraud).

How can you play twice against Storm, Roosters, Broncos and Eagles (harsh enough as it is) without somehow in the "luck of the draw" meeting some of the sides when they are a bit weakened by rep duties. We had to play them all at the start of the year when they are fit and available, and all again later when their rep players were available and they were gearing up for finals football.

I'm deadly serious when I say that if we miss the finals by 2 points or on for-and-against it will be largely due to our draw. If you miss out by 8 points then sure, you just weren't good enough. But 2 points or less, and compared to how ridiculously different your matches might have been to the team about you, it's just a joke of a system.

Let's not forget that traditionally the Knights have always dones better playing against the so-called harder teams. It is a weakness the Knights have that we struggle against lesser opposition.

 

[Jobdog]

I know this thread is to stimulate discussion, but lets not get too carried away. How about we focus on winning the Titans game next week and then go from there hey?

 

[perverse]

Funny how I made this a topic of conversation 2 weeks ago and was told to "take one game at a time"!

and nothing has changed... i'm trying not to look too far forward so i'm not disappointed if we don't quite get there. i'm more than a little concerned about the tits... and it's a game that we simply cannot afford to drop. rapana vs uate on the wing could be interesting...

 

[Jono078]

manlys top try scorer, second top try scorer in nrl, perfect positionally at fullback and now involved in ballplaying/kicking more often. It is a 'real' loss

No it wasnt a real loss in the context of things.

You replaced him with Robertson who is a very capable replacement and bring in someone like Bani.

The Eagles performed close to how they would perform with Stewart there. So I don't consider that a big loss.

 

[hugzy]

why would beating the storm this year guarantee top 4 next year?

jsut sense a shift in power. our team gives me the feel of parra 2000-2001 (hopefully next year will be like parra 2001 with a better ending), not a coincidence it's the same coach.

thought yesterday after we monstered the Eels - I couldn't believe that we were in the same position on the ladder as them. They have been terrible if not woeful all year and we have been really solid - and to be on the same spot on the ladder as them seemed ludicrous

we have much bigger hearts than them, but they do have a star-studded squad.

 

[hugzy]

Can you ghost dance 1 side in every game next week. Let me know on friday who your going to dance and I will put a MASSIVE multi bet on.

L O L lets not over-expose our secret weapon

 

[antonius]

When do we ever beat Brisbane or Melbourne, or Canberra in Canberra?

Our draw is terrible, during the origin period we had to play 3 games where we had players selected for origin 8 times. The 3 opposition teams we played in this period missed only 1 player to origin between them. Then we had to play Melbourne Brisbane Roosters etc at full strength twice.

The problem is the draw doesn't even out not every team play each other twice, the Sydney teams are generally weaker then the non Sydney teams. Because we are a non Sydney we have to play Brisbane and Melbourne twice every year and teams like the Rabbitohs Panthers Bulldogs once. Whereas teams like the dragons might only play Melbourne once and the Rabbitohs twice.

So yeah in conclusion the NRL sucks and i hate them

The draw doesn't work like that. Weather you play a team once or twice depends on where you finished the previous year. Don't ask me to explain the details because it's too complicated. But it has nothing to do with which area the team comes from.

 

[Jono078]

The draw doesn't work like that. Weather you play a team once or twice depends on where you finished the previous year. Don't ask me to explain the details because it's too complicated. But it has nothing to do with which area the team comes from.

That was the old formula.

This year teams listed their preference as to who they'd like to play at home.

They went with that so teams could generate better home crowds.

 

[Tommax25]

That has to be one of the most contradictory posts I have ever read.

Surely you are not actually suggesting that the Eagles would be guaranteed to beat the Knights in a finals match, and at the same time admitting that we beat them when they were at full strength in round 2?

Manly don't scare me, and I honestly believe they don't scare the Knight's players or a few other teams either. Yes they are good, but to suggest that I "may as well throw that money in the fire" is laughable.

Manly can have the minor premiership for all I care, it won't change the fact that they are nowhere near as good as the Storm. Manly are a well drilled side who have had a decent run with injuries and played some good footy. I doubt they'll win the comp.

And I'm deadly serious, if we make the finals and come up against them I will back us at any reasonable odds.

Plus you seem to be using the argument that a harsh draw is not as harsh if you actually WIN the matches. What a joke, the fact that we won one and lost one against Manly is irrelevant, having to play so many of the top sides twice without them being affected by rep committments is unfair. We could win all 24 matches in the season, but a draw like that is still unfair.

you didnt comment on the fact that clubs put in preferences for the draw, so if the knights have a harsh draw, which they do, its partly their fault.

1st has never beaten 8th in the finals. I dont think that will changew if manly are 1 and knights 8, or for that matter storm, roosters or sharks who make 1. And there is a difference between beating them in round 2 at energyaustralia and the finals at brookvale, not to say that manly are unbeatable at home or that the knights cant beat them but I just think its highly unlikely, hence my comment that you would waste your money backing them, but its up to you anyway, back them if you want.

 

[Tommax25]

No it wasnt a real loss in the context of things.

You replaced him with Robertson who is a very capable replacement and bring in someone like Bani.

The Eagles performed close to how they would perform with Stewart there. So I don't consider that a big loss.

stewart>robertson, robertson>bani therefore manly lost something. I do like bani as he is a crowd-pleaser but he isn't as good in my opinion.

I think you would argue the point if any one of your key players were out (buderus, simpson, mullen, gidley, cross)

 

[Jono078]

You're not getting me at all...

It's no real loss in that he doesnt have a major affect on the result.

If we lose Gidley and/or Buderus our results are much different. Therefore them being real loss.

 

[Tommax25]

Well if Stewart is as big a loss as you think then what do you make of the Dragons playing the Storm and Brocnos minus their gazillion million rep players?

It's really quite simple - if we had played the Storm without their rep players and/or the Roosters without theirs, and/or the Broncos without theirs - we probably would've won that/those matches in a canter. It's just a giveaway 2 points. Some teams got the freebie, some teams didn't.

But not only did we NOT get the free points, we actually had to play all those teams twice instead of just once at full strength. It's plain ridiculous.

If swapped our draw with the Dragons we would be sitting comfortably in the top 8 and they would be scrapping. Considering the future of our entire club can rest on things such as crowd attendance, it is a disgracefully unprofessional way for a competition to be organised.

like ive mentioned before, if you guys lost any single one of your players, such as gidley for example, you would say you lost something, so dont tell me manly didnt suffer in his absence even if robertson is capable, if manly lost nothing with stewart out and robbo in then why is robbo never pushing for starts at fullback? because he isn't as good and we lose something, and I've mentioned those things breifly.

I think the storm ect losing their players is massive and obviously worse than losing one. I never said that manly were worse off than those teams with more than one rep, I was merely refuting the point that there was no 'real' loss. He is a rep player so obviously he is quality and that quality is then lost from the side for that game.

Yes the dragons had an easy draw and yes you had a tough draw but like I've said clubs put in their preferences for games. Knights management, or at least broncos/storm/manly/roosters managament, wanted to play twice. I would say the knights would have wanted two games against manly because of the sort of rivalry there because of the 1997 GF, and maybe storm/broncs becasue of their margue players drawing crowds. I dont know, I'm speculating.

 

[Tommax25]

You're not getting me at all...

It's no real loss in that he doesnt have a major affect on the result.

If we lose Gidley and/or Buderus our results are much different. Therefore them being real loss.

well I disagree, he was our only origin player, and only 1 of 2 rep players this season, so obvisouily he is going to affect our results if he is out and I have outlined why he is a loss, but you probably will disagree with whatever I say so lets agree to disagree and move on.