In praise of The Greatest

[legend]

Well, my knowledge of Ali is next to zip but I did give more than a cursory glance to a documentary on channel nine this afternoon call Ali: Through the world's eyes or something like that.

They showed footage of him with Malcom X and he was a stooge for the nation of Islam in the United States and how they dictated what he should do and say and that he was not the greatest anything, he was just a pawn in a much bigger game. Someone even made a reference to Ali being greater than Ghandi???? What you have to remember is Malcolm X was killed by his own people because he was seen as one man with too much power and a threat to Elijiah Mohommed. That is for another thread though.

Anyway, they had an interview with a fellow by the name of Henry Cooper who Ali fought in 1963 and beat but not before a lot of controversy. At the end of the third(I think) Cooper laid one on Ali and Ali went down like a sack of spuds but was literally saved by the bell. During the breakAli intentionallyripped his gloves so the fight had to be paused until he got some new gloves which gave him a conservative 3-4 minutes to compose himself and hence when on to beat Cooper in the next round as Cooper already had a gash near his eye and was opened up further. After seeing the footage I have no doubt Ali would have lost the fight had he not resorted to the underhanded tactics mentioned in the doco. He can hardly be called the greatest IMO.

 

[Willow]

Well I think that a bit harsh. I mean to judge a boxeron one fight in 1963 based on theresearch of one documentary. Ripping of gloves would be just one of the many under handed things that go on in boxing.
I've lost count of the amount of times a football player has sucked up time behind the posts prior to putting in a line drop out.
And thenthere's the'professional' goings on of some championTennis players...hell...better not go down that road....

 

[legend]

Willow, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I'm not sure of what Coopers ability was or what his professional record was like either but Ali had to used a underhanded tactic to beat a boxer I consider not in the "elite" class of other fighters throughout history.

I'm also sure the guys who take a breather behind the posts in league never self proclaim to be the greatest at league except for one twit who does'nt even deserved to be mentioned in a credible boxing thread.

If he(Ali) was the greatest why couldnt he beat an honest but by no means champion boxer fair and square? He may have had the mouth and the hype and the people around him telling him he was the greatest, but like most things, the auru of greatness grows significantly over time. That's the way I see it.

 

[Willow]

I hear what you say but I still think its a bit much to pass judgment on one bout being televised almost 30 years later.We simply dont know allthe circumstances

I agree... about the aura of time. I said near the top of this thread Ali has been iconised by the American people.They have created a new industryinthe same way thatthe Elvis thing just gets bigger and bigger.

I don't think the real Ali will ever be able to quitelive up to the future product but that's business. Ali was always to do with business and that will continue.

 

[El Duque]

It was not Ali's tactics legend it was Angelo Dundee's.

At the end of the 4th Cooper decked him with a left hook.When he went back to his corner he was in gaga land.Dundee saw a tear in Ali's glove and just made it bigger and asked the ref for a change of gloves.5 minutes later no glove could be found so they started the 5th round and Ali finished off Cooper.
Now I know someone who attended this fight(a pom too)and he swares Ali predicted he would finish Cooper in the 5th and was clowning round in the 4th(dropping his hands and stuff)just so he could carry Cooper into the 5th and got caught by the hammer.I've seen the fight on tape and don't know for sure how much clowning Ali was doing in order to just carry Cooper to fulfill his prediction because he always clowned a bit but I still feel Ali could've put Cooper away in the 4th had he wanted to so I don't worry too much about Dundee's tactics in this fight.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Good summary of the Cooper fight, El Duque. In all the many things I've read about Ali, no one ever made a big deal about the glove incident as far as it hurting Ali's reputation. Ali was hit and made groggy by better fighters than Cooper and came back to beat them without benefit of any delays. Or in the case of Ali-Frazier 1 he hung on to fight a good fight before losing in the end. He would have beaten Cooper without the glove delay. When Ali got serious in the 5th he made short work of Cooper.

 

[El Duque]

From most reports ifCooper was ever ripped off it was his loss to "pommy" Joe Bugner that was most controversial.

 

[CanadianSteve]

When did Cooper and Bugner fight? I would have thought they were pretty far apart in age since Cooper fought Ali in the early 60's and Bugner fought in the 70's if memory serves.

 

[El Duque]

1971

 

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[imported_Jackal]

This certainly is a rippa of a thread guys. I'm very much enjoying being a spectator this time.The learning phase of this thread is irreplaceable.
Question: Many of you guys use the term 'ring.' Now I'm guessing that's in refrence to where the fighting actually takes place. Correct? If that's the case, then why the term 'ring'? Doesn't that word represent a 'circle' when in actual fact it's taking place in a 'square' or a 'rectangle' some may claim? Why call it a 'ring' and not a 'square'...or even a 'rectangle'? It doesn't make sense to me.
I'm just curious...

 

[Javaman]

Very good question poster Jackal.
The typical early contests of boxing were quite barbaric by todays standards, if that can be believed. Not only were they unregulated, no time limits or rounds, but they were bare knuckledand no-holds-barred contests that often lasted for several hours, and whilst fists were considered the primary weapon, no tactic was forbidden. Most either took place in outdoors or warehouses of some type because of the non existance of a governing body (not that early in time anyway), and the fact that even as early as then it had its critics. Mainly women from the middle to upper-class of society. Men of all social levels, reportedly, were always fans.The 'ring' was defined by the circle of spectators who not only viewed the fights, but they formed a circle to keep the fighters within a certain fighting area. Thereby the term has stuck for hundereds of years, and now the 'ring' is commonly referred to as the immediate area where bouts take place.

 

[Javaman]

With no desire of starting another arguement (I think I've created enough furor for one discussion topic), I'll say this on the Larry Holmes debate. He was far from being a lard arse who had practically no boxing skills as poster Warlock has claimed. But, he is even further from being mentioned amongst the greatest heavyweights of all time.
That's allI willsay.

 

[imported_Jackal]

Thanks for that peice of historyJavaman. Good explaination that makes alot of sense now that I think about it.
<u>Ps</u>: I love your work here mate.

 

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[CanadianSteve]

Java, we agree on something. Larry Holmes certainly had some skills and was not fat in his prime. He held the title for some time, which is an achievement for any boxer. He doesn't rank as an all-time great, but he was a quite respectable heavyweight champ in his time.

 

[bender]

Someone raised Ali not wanting to street fight Joe Frasier as evidence that he was not the greatest. This is ridiculous. No one knows who would win a street fight between the two and to be honest, I think Ali would probably win. Street fighting is diferent to boxing in that there are no gloves which means the punches hurt twice asmuch. With ali hitting Joe twice as many times asJoe hitting ali, I would not be surprised if Ali won, although i think you would find that whoever hit first would win.

When Ali won his Gold Medals for the USA, he was refused service at a bikie bar a gang of bikies chased Ali and he tried to run away but could not. Needless to say, when they finally caught up to him, he knocked them out. The point is that Ali not wanting to street fight Joe does not necessarilly mean he would not have beaten him. I have also heard a similar story during the taping of the Marciano Ali computer fight when an old Marciano knocked down a young Ali and wanted to go on with it. Ali refused to fight. Ali not wanting to take things further outside of the ring should be seen as a good thing, not a bad thing.

Anyway, on to the question of who is the greatest,

Ali beat Foreman, Frasier, Norton, Liston, who are all very good or great fighters. In Fact Foreman would probably have been the greatest ever if Ali had not beaten him. Maybe he would have even never lost a fight. Liston, Also was considered near unbeatable until Ali knocked him out, twice (i dont believe the Phantom punch). What makes this even more incredible was that he did this not in his prime but as aging superstar. There is no doubt that Ali was not as good as he was after his exile. Ali's best asset was his speed and as a person gets older, it gets harder to maintain that speed. IMO, a three year layoff would hurt Ali more than it would many other boxers who rely more on power. To do what he did was incredible.

Rocky Marciano is the first boxer who could lay claim to being the greatest. On the face of it Rocky did have the perfect record. Marciano was a bleeder early in his career but he was probably the hardest working champion of all time. I dont think he had the natural talent of Ali but you can only judge him by what he did and he did beat everybody. His reign at the top wasnt as long as some of the other greats but it did not have to be. Of all the fighters, I think Marciano is closest to Ali, in fact, I think he would have beaten Ali if the two ever met (or at least the older version of Ali) although i also think that would be mostly because Ali would have taken him very lightly and i am confident that Ali would win the next two fights although possibly he would struggle.

The popular selection as greatest ever is Joe Louis. I have never followed Louis carreer all that much. I know from videos that Louis revolutionised boxing with a proper stance and fighting technique which is probably why he looked so good. However, from my limited memory wasnt he knocked out by an average Max Schmeling? He was also made to look very second rate by Rocky Marciano. Now I know he was very old by this time and not as good as he was, he was still pretty good and had looked impressive in lead up bouts. I dont think Louis on that night was too far different from the old Ali who took on Foreman. I do stand to be have my opinion changed by some of Louis's fans (my opinion of Marciano rose after reading the ratings game thread). I would be interested to read some of Louis biggest matches and any reasons from any of his fans as to why he would beat Ali.

Mike Tyson is the next name. The early Tyson could be mentioned in the same breath as the greats. However, he has really suffered with time. I dont think that Tyson had the chin or boxing nouse to compete with Ali, Foreman, Frasier, Louis, Marciano or any of the other greats. In fact an Ali Tyson match would have been an absolute classic. Cant you just see Tyson wanting to kill him but being beaten by the Rope a Dope tactic?

 

[El Duque]

I actually think Norton won bouts 1 &amp; 3 v Ali and you could also make a case he won the 2nd.Norton had Ali's number.

Liston, Also was considered near unbeatable until Ali knocked him out, twice (i dont believe the Phantom punch).

Have you not seen it?Liston took a dive IMO.

I dont think that Tyson had the chin or boxing nouse to compete with Ali, Foreman, Frasier, Louis, Marciano

Tyson had an excellent chin.Look at the shit he took from Buster before being KO'd especially round 9.Also look at Round 6 of Tyson-Ruddock I and see what Razor hit him with and he never went down and Razor had one of the meanest left hooks/hookercut ever.See the Dokes KO.
A young Tyson (85-88)was one of the fiercest heavyweights ever with phenomanal power,lightning fast hands and excellent footwork.That version of Tyson was nearly iinvincible.Wouldn't surprise me if he beat all of the fighters you mentioned.

 

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[Vertigo]

Very good post Warlock among a number of them on this thread. Someone said earlier that this thread was a great learning tool, andI fully agree.
It has the potential to become the best non rugby league thread anywhere. I agree Javaman, you may have started a uproar, but it's progressed at a very high class andmature level.
Well done guys and thanks from the audience...I'm sure there's plenty of us.

Vertigo.