In praise of The Greatest

[El Duque]

Yup good post Warlock.

Cus created Mike from a young age.They had a good numbers system for punch combos and everythingbut unfortunatlry he was burnt oy by the time he was 24.
Whether this was due to his style or the way he lived after that leech Don King took him over we'll never know.
In his prime he was a sight to behold.

 

[imported_Outlaw]

I've got to agree with you there Virtigo. There are way too many excellent posts here to single one or two out.
Very well said Warlock. Tyson in his younger years was a sight to behold. Your finishing paragraph was spot on mate. The phrase 'the hardest game' is so true of boxing.

 

[Atilla]

Certainly a well thought out post Warlock
I believe Jack Dempsey would have given Tyson a good fight too. Dempsey was a tenacious fighter who genuinely enjoyed hurting his opponents so much so, that breaking bones was a specialty of his as he did against Jess Willard. It's said that Willard's jaw was so badly broken along with four ribsagainst his fight with Dempsey in 1920, that Willard was never able to speak or eat properly as he did before the clash, or even breath as freely as he once did. Dempsey reportedly dropped Willard down seven times in the first round alone, and continued beating him for the following two more until he won by a knock out. Willard apparently outweighed Dempsey by sixty odd pounds. He continued to take similar action against fighters like Georges Carpentier, and apparantley gave Argentinian Luis Firpo an even amore savage beating then what he did to Willard, also dropping him seven times in the first before ending the young man in the second. Dempsey was hardly a huge heavyweight by todays standards, standing at 6-foot 1-in and fighting between 175 to 190lb, but his punches were by all accounts as hard as any in boxings history and harder than any in the roaring 20's. This guy just loved to hurt opponents, and he even said once that the more his opponents fought back, the more he'd beat them. I honestly believe that if these two ever met in their primes (hyperthetically of course), than one fighter would certainly have died in the ringbecause Tyson in his best years was no easy beat also, who didn't enjoy a glove being laid on him as well.

Cheers all - Atilla

 

[CanadianSteve]

I think Ali and Frazier in their primes would have beaten Tyson in his. Which brings up the question of when was Ali at his best. Probably in 1966-67, just before his "exile". Then he had more punching power than later, and was also faster on his feet. I think his speed and defense would have exposed Tyson's weaknesses, much as Holyfield did later. (I know Mike was past his best by then. but Holyfield still showed what a skilled boxer could do to counter Tyson's power.)
Here is Angelo Dundee talking about the first Ali-Liston fight: "Liston was trying to load up on shots, but my guy wasn't there to be loaded up on. I'm telling you that Liston would've beaten Tyson at his best. He [Liston] was a big strong guy, he had shoulders that reached across the ring, he was faster than Tyson. But he was in there with an intricate guy. Muhammad was even outstronging him, pushing him around in the clinches, then he kept moving around, popping him." (From "King of the World, by David Remnick)
Angelo would be biased for Ali, but he probably knows more about boxing than those of us here. If he says Liston was better than Tyson, then I draw the conclusion that a young Ali would have beaten Tyson

 

[El Duque]

Dundee also said Tyson punched like a trigger.So how could Liston be faster?Strange chap Angelo.

"This kid don't let you do what you want to do," Berbick's trainer Angelo Dundee will say after the fight. "He created the pressure and my guy didn't react to the pressure . . . . He throws combinations I never saw before. When have you seen a guy throw a right hand to the kidney, come up the middle with an uppercut, then throw a left hook. He throws punches . . . Iike a trigger."

 

[CanadianSteve]

Re the question of whether Liston took a dive in the second Ali fight: I am copying a post I made earlier in another thread:
In the 2nd Liston fight, I have read of at least 2 sportswriters who were at ringside and claimed to see the punch. Morton Sharnik of Sports Illustrated was one. The book "King of the World" by David Remnick concluded that it was not a fix. From the book: "In slow motion, one can see the blow not only snaps Liston's neck, it also makes him lift his left foot off the ground before he finally tumbles onto the canvas."
Also from the same book: Jersey Joe Walcott, who refereed Ali-Liston 2: "Liston was a whipped man. I could see by that glassy look in his eyes... I could have counted to 24, Liston was in a dream world..."
The timekeeper in the match: "If that bum Clay had gone to a neutral corner instead of running around like a maniac, all the trouble would have been avoided." He went on to say he timed the knockout from when Liston hit the canvas to 12 seconds, then stopped his watch. But Walcott had not counted because of Ali's antics. When Walcott came to the timekeeper, " I told him I stopped the watch at 12 seconds and that Liston by that time had been on the canvas for at least 20 seconds."

 

[CanadianSteve]

Maybe Angelo would say Tyson was too fast and powerful for Berbick, but if he got in the ring with Ali it would be different.

 

[El Duque]

Dundee was just talking about Tyson in general.Ali may have been quicker but Liston?
Angelo has to be joking?

 

[Javaman]

To poster Bender:

I'll be more than happy to give my views on the 'Brown Bomber' -Joe Louis,and why I believe he's the greatest heavyweight ever, but I'm really strapped for time today and over the next few comming days. But I will write out a lengthy post on the great fighter when I have time and present it on this discussion topic sometime in the new future.
Assistance: Does anyone have any ideas how I can avoid losing my written posts. I've written two lengthy posts in the last few days but when I've gone to send themI get a message saying the page is unavailable. I'd appreciate the help in trying to solve this annoying occurance.
Thanks from Javaman.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Javaman: I think if you would be more favourable to Ali in your posts they would get through more easily.

 

[El Duque]

I get that sometimes so if it's anything of lengthI copy and paste it into a new text document and just save it onmy desktop.If it works I just then delete it.

<br clear=all><hr>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here

 

[Javaman]

Honestly Canadian Steve, my good friend Atilla said exactly the same thing to me when I rang him with the problem a short while ago. Freaky. I've always praised Muhammad Ali, just never in the way his fans would like me to, lol.
Great idea El-duque. I'll certainly do that from now on when I write anything of length.
Thanking you both &amp; until next time : Javaman

 

[Javaman]

Just before I head off for the afternoon, I wanted to repost this great article that apparently appeared in Sports Illustrated which poster Cryptic Messenger started a discussion onawhile back. The discussion was a great read by the way, and I was hoping poster Cryptic Messenger would join us here, because not only does heseem to be another "Ali is the greatest" fan, but he made some good points about Ali whichI was hoping to debate with him on. Anyway here is the article on Ali and why he is overrated according to sports Illustrated, which incidently I fully agree with. Please take note of the very last sentence:

Muhammad Ali was the greatest showman, the greatest self-promotor and the greatest humanitarian in boxing history. However, he wasn't the greatest heavyweight of the 20th century, as he was named by a five-member panel assembled by the Associated Press. The Ali of 1965-67 - when he was floating by a butterfly and stinging like a bee and making boxing look the sweet science it assuredly is not - would have been a match for any fighter of any era. Three years does not make a career, and after being forced to take 3.5 years off to fight his legal battles against induction into the army, Ali returned in 1970 a different fighter. He was heavier, not as quick and a lot more hittable. Ali never had classic defensive technique. He held his hands low and relied on his speed to make other fighters miss. Once he lost a bit of that quickness they missed less often. An unheralded Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw. Joe Frazier inflicted terrible punishment in their three bouts. Ali's best attribute later on in his career, sadly, was that he could take a punch.

Yet he rope-a-doped sportswriters with his charm. Even in his prime Ali lacked heavyweight power, which is why a swarming, fearless fighter like Frazier (who was knocked out twice by Foreman) gave him so much trouble. Of Ali's 27 wins between 1970 and 1978, only 14 were by knockout, an astonishingly low percentage for a heavyweight champion. Journeyman fighter like Joe Bugner, Alfredo Evangelista and Jimmy Young went 15 rounds with him, and Norton and Spinks beat him. Unlike Joe Louis, who for 12 years straight owned the undisputed heavyweight title and was the century's greatest heavyweight, Ali achieved only fleeting greatness.

'till soon - Javaman

 

[imported_Jackal]

That certainly was an excellent thread, Javaman. But I honestly think this one has surpassed it (in particular information wise)...not taking anything away from that one.

 

[imported_Raidpatch]

This certainly is a great read for the boxing fan. Probably even better to participate in. I wouldn't know. I don't want to embarras myself amongst the knowlege here.
Great going guys.

Javaman,
Cryptic Messenger has no idea about this thread. His home was broken into over the weekend and although they didn't take a lot of items, they did take his personal computer along with a few other electronic gadgets. He tells me he's hoping to get one soon and will rejoin us thereafter. Reclaiming stolen or damagegitems from insurance companies can at the best of times be gruelling. That's the headaches he is facing. If you click on his name, you'll see he has been around for over a week.

 

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[Atilla]

That sure was great reading Warlock. Thanks for that mate. I'm sure Javaman would be impressed.
Whilst I think the writer has said much of what seems to be said about Joe Louis, I think Javaman might throw in a few things of his own. Trust me, there is no greater supporter of Joe Louis than Javaman that I know of. He has studied Joe Louis's career for the last three years or so in great detail, and after watching endless clips of the heavyweight and reading all he could get his hands on, he has no doubt that Louis was the greatest heavyweight of all time. But in all fairness to him, he has played it fairly and studied other pasts greats just as carefully as he did Joe Louis.Believe me, I have tried to change his mind and lead him toward the 'true' greatest of all time, Muhammad Ali, but he is sure in his ways and will not cross the line. If he can put down into words as well as, and as highly ashe speaks about Louis, than what he's got to say will impress you. Just remember to keep an open mind when you read his post.
C'mon Aaron, we're waiting with our breaths held mate. lol..lol
Cheers all - Atilla