Is Cleary a dud?

[Aliceinwonderland]

2011 he took Warriors to a grand final.
Not even a dozen games later you had started this thread when our roster was pure shit that no coach was doing anything with.

Well said Mate. Well said.

 

[mxlegend99]

That side should never been tipped to be premiers. Too many holes in the side.

Ivan had coached for 7 or 8 seasons when I called him out as a dud. So bigger sample size and worse record

He had only coached 5 seasons at that point and had only missed the finals twice as coach.

Once when his team self reported a cap breach and they started on -4 points. (They won enough games to make it though). The other the year Sonny Fai died which is too much for any team to overcome. His most recent season he took Warriors to a grand final.

There was absolutely no justifying the hate back then. Our roster was shit and he had overachieved at the Warriors in his time there.

 

[franklin2323]

He had only coached 5 seasons at that point and had only missed the finals twice as coach.

Once when his team self reported a cap breach and they started on -4 points. (They won enough games to make it though). The other the year Sonny Fai died which is too much for any team to overcome. His most recent season he took Warriors to a grand final.

There was absolutely no justifying the hate back then. Our roster was shit and he had overachieved at the Warriors in his time there.

That GF year they finished 6th. He came to us with a 49% win rate. Hardly setting the world on fire

 

[mxlegend99]

That GF year they finished 6th. He came to us with a 49% win rate. Hardly setting the world on fire

You could atleast get your stats right:
At Warriors he had 77 wins, 74 losses and 3 draws. His win rate was 50%. He won more than he lost though.

That record was also destroyed by his 2009 season where Sonny Fai died in the off-season.

Season break down:

2006 - 12 wins / 12 losses. Started season off on -4 points. His rookie season for 10th.
2007 - 13 wins / 12 losses. 1 draw. Finished top 4. Eliminated in straight sets in his first finals appearances.
2008 - 15 wins / 12 losses. Finished 8th. won opening 2 finals matches before being eliminated week 3.
2009 - 7 wins / 15 losses. 2 draws. Sonny Fai passed away in the of-season and his team for the first time ever lost more games than they won.
2010 - 14 wins. 11 losses. Finished 5th. eliminated week 1.
2011 - 16 wins. 12 losses. Eliminated in a grand final.

His stats outside of 2009 were 70 wins. 59 losses and a draw. 70 wins in 130 games for just shy of a 54% win rate at the Warriors. Even with a write-off season he sat at 50%.

He made a f**king GF the year before he joined us. The year before he joined us our club was close to folding and he was brought in by Gus as part of a massive rebuild. Our roster was average as f**k.

At that point he had done nothing to justify the hatred toward him. You had completely unrealistic expectations placed upon him considering the roster we had and the rebuild he was brought in to do.

Walsh and Burns as halves. A forward pack littered with stars like Newton, Ciraldo, Achurch, Galea, Robinson, Shackleton, Simpkins, Smith, Weston etc.

The hate now is justified. But back then it was f**king ridiculous. Today we have a coach whose word means nothing, who came here basically for revenge given he had the provision Gus couldn't touch our footy team. He has put in jeopardy the careers of multiple players at the club and sat on an unforgivable 2 wins and 7 losses (now 8) with a squad capable of being top 8.

 

[franklin2323]

Rugby League project has his club record at 49% at the Warriors but ok even allowing for 50% before coming here.

So we are taking literally an average coach. You can't get anymore average then 50% or 49% if you want to use club matches overall.

The decline since then was what I sensed when I started this thread sadly was proven right

 

[Abacus]

The thread may have been premature in 2012, sadly it's entirely relevant now.

 

[franklin2323]

The thread may have been premature in 2012, sadly it's entirely relevant now.

There were signs back then lower grades flying while top squad struggled. Coach seemingly had no idea Sadly they weren't just teething problems but a sign of what was too come

 

[Pomoz]

This 100%. I keep on banging on about this. We could have the largest catchment of the most talented juniors and win the Club Championship every year - but if we FAIL to bring the right ones into the top grade the RIGHT way we are doomed, and not only that - we are wasting our resources for the betterment of other Clubs......

We were right to boot Leary and bring in Gus. Gus was right to give Elliot the boot, and also right to emphasise Reserve grade over the U20's fad and bring them back from Windsor (no offense to the Windsor Wolves - I attended quite a few games there). He was right that we need a culture change. But it all went wrong from there on.

He hired Cleary who wanted to instil discipline in a squad that wanted to run itself. Fine. However the first cracks were the departure of Jennings and especially Lewis. I already questioned why is it that Cleary gives these players the boot whilst great coaches such as Bellamy and Bennett can seem to straighten out troubled/maligned players and rejuvenate underperforming talent. But OKAY lets assume the worst and that these guys were beyond reform - it is not like Bellamy and Bennett always succeed, they cut loose players who are too pigheaded, lazy or stupid to be coached by them.

So Gus then starts buying players 'winners' from other clubs - and also underrated prospects. Most of his 'winners hires' are failures - brought in on good money and performing less than their pay grades. Manu, Kite, Soward. The likes of Soward and Segeyero had a good season or two but were either past their best (Soward) or had poor attitude (Seg) so by in large they were a failure.

Gus also buys prospects the Naiquama Brothers (Disaster), Whare - a good buy and Api - a good buy undone by his decision to offload him to keep Seg who'd go on to leave. Peachey was perhaps one of his best punts but even that was somewhat of a double edged sword - Peachey is too good a general footballer but could not find a 'spot' in the starting 13.

Why am I banging on about Gus and his outside recruitment? Well you can't talk about Cleary without Gus. It was Gus's call to bring him in and also you can assume many of the Recruitment and retention decisions were made in consultation with Cleary. His tenure was by in large a failure. Our talented juniors (Coote/Austin) and other players had attitude and discipline problems that resulted in them being moved on. Our players were not disciplined on the field either, they were also injury prone and not that fit. What most don't talk about with our injuries is that we either purchased broken aged players or introduced young and under developed juniors too early or just the 'wrong body types' which is part of the point of what Franklin is on about....

Subsequently Grifin is hired. Shit so we replace one ordinary coach with another. Most fans are puzzled but the catch phrase amongst the Panther Cult is "In Gus we Trust". I had little faith but what the hell, I am a supporter - what else can I do another than see how it goes? Griffin take Clearys squad and turns them into a consistent and tough squad. So what do the Griffin years have to do with Cleary? Well Griffin had issues with players Discipline and effort such as Moylan, Soward etc. Wasn't Cleary supposed to have sorted the Leary/Elliot mess along with Gus? Evidently not.

So we have a competitive and talented squad and Griffin gets the boot - ok fine, he isn't the type of coach that can win you a GF - sort of a Brian Smith type except Brian could actually get you to a GF, but I digress.

So we hire Cleary back. In the off season we have these crazy sex tapes come out. Well our culture is obviously 'reformed' since the Gus/Cleary days isn't it. Our players come back unfit and their onfield effort and discipline has gone to shit. During the Griffin days our players were prone to stupid penalties (we were sin binned nearly every game last year) dumb dropped ball and taking unnecessary risks in poor field position. This year under Cleary it is even worse. Many fans question the intelligence of our players and this is where I finally get to my main point -

We Focus too much on skills talent and not anywhere near enough on the temperament, physical body type and Intellect when selecting our first graders.

You look at Bellamy teams and he selects the right body types for positions. He famously left the talented young and lanky Inglis at fullback till he was sure he was durable and experienced enough for the 'front line'. Smith, Cronk, and to a lesser extent Slater were all highly durable players, and all of them had excellent Temperament on and off the field. He always selects SPEED on his wings, not nuggetty short and slow metre eaters.

The Storm are our exact opposite. They have little in the way of juniors but always select and develop good players on and off the field. They have sustained success and we have sustained failure and underachieving.

If we were to select the right type of players and put them through the right channels of development there is no reason why we could not become a super club. Most of our intelligent fans realise this and this is why they are often the most frustrated. The potential is there and it is being completely squandered and the buck stops with the management.

A very interesting post and a thoughtful viewpoint on what has gone wrong. Whether Gus recruited well and whether Griffin was a good coach or not is a matter of opinion. If we objectively look at the results achieved, Griffin's teams made the semi finals every year he was coach. He did so whilst having the second youngest team in the NRL after the Knights. He debuted a number of young players. Gus provided Griffin with a roster capable of playing semi-final football and this was done after starting from a pretty low base when he joined the club when Elliot and Leary were in charge. You think Gus failed to recruit winners, 4 out of 5 years making the semis is the outcome achieved.

When people judge Griffin and say he is a failure they completely disregard his record because perhaps they didn't like the style of football his team played. I understand that, I detest the way the Storm play. I find them a dreary, boring team who are only interested in wrestling so they can win a game. Is Bellamy a good coach? If you judge him on results, yes he is, in fact he is exceptional.

I can't see how making the semi finals three years straight, and in Gus's case four out of five years, makes them failures or brings into question their legacy. We must remember this simple fact. The only change from last year is the coach and fitness and conditioning staff. It should also be acknowledged that Cleary's has inherited a team with a good track record whom now have a lot more experience than when Griffin took over. This years failures need to be judged in that context and not conflated to include the last five years, which were successful.

Your comments about picking the right type of players and then developing them in the right sort of culture seem spot on to me. The results speak for themselves in relation to discipline and since we have consistently been the worst or nearly the worst in this area, for that Gus has to take some responsibility. I know Gus said he wanted Griffin to create the same type of winning culture the Broncos have and yet our tolerance of ill discipline on the field shows we really didn't take that seriously and now it's starting to hurt us.

Body shape is not as clear cut. There are many great players who don't look that they are the right physical shape. Let's be honest, Cameron Smith is built like the guy who does tax returns at H&R Block and yet is one of the greatest players ever to play the game. Thurston looks like he couldn't bench press a carton of eggs, likewise Ben Barba. Josh Mansour looks short and stubby, yet in his prime was a beast of a winger. I think if you focus on temperament and intelligence and perhaps, durability, the body shape doesn't matter. A tall winger may have poor timing and hand eye coordination so drops the ball and mistimes his jump frequently. Alternatively, he may be good at those things but have a very poor vertical leap and shorter players get above him,. In the end, their performance on the field will determine whether their body shape is effective.

In relation to the sex tape allegations, I don't know it says anything about the culture at the Panthers anymore than De Belin allegations imply the Dragons have cultural issues with woman, or Inglis's drink driving proves South's have problems with alcohol.

 

[mxlegend99]

Rugby League project has his club record at 49% at the Warriors but ok even allowing for 50% before coming here.

So we are taking literally an average coach. You can't get anymore average then 50% or 49% if you want to use club matches overall.

The decline since then was what I sensed when I started this thread sadly was proven right

Lol. In 5 seasons he only had worse than a 50% win rate and that was clearly because the club was shattered at the loss of a young star which we know first hand really hurts the club.

His first season here was coming off a grsnd final appearance to a club in need of a major rebuild from top to bottom. He helped rebuild us and a very few games into his rebuild you're calling him a dud.

Hes a shit merkin today. Tge game has passed him by. But his first 3 seasons with us he did very well and helped shape the club for the past 5 years. Outside of a Bennett or Bellamy no coach was going to do any better than he did.

Look at the rebuilds the likes of Browne, Arthur, Kearney etc. Have been part of. Its not a small job.

 

[franklin2323]

Lol. In 5 seasons he only had worse than a 50% win rate and that was clearly because the club was shattered at the loss of a young star which we know first hand really hurts the club.

His first season here was coming off a grsnd final appearance to a club in need of a major rebuild from top to bottom. He helped rebuild us and a very few games into his rebuild you're calling him a dud.

Hes a shit merkin today. Tge game has passed him by. But his first 3 seasons with us he did very well and helped shape the club for the past 5 years. Outside of a Bennett or Bellamy no coach was going to do any better than he did.

Look at the rebuilds the likes of Browne, Arthur, Kearney etc. Have been part of. Its not a small job.

Windsor came 5th 2012. NYC made semis.
Windsor made GF 2013. NYC won the comp.
2014 Penrith won NSW Cup

So there was talent at the club that for whatever reason wasn't used. Instead the plodders were used is what was behind starting this thread.

50% win record to come in is exactly in the middle. There was nothing to say he would of improved for certain. Hence why this is as a question not a statement

 

[TheFrog]

Your comments about picking the right type of players and then developing them in the right sort of culture seem spot on to me. The results speak for themselves in relation to discipline and since we have consistently been the worst or nearly the worst in this area,

Penalties were in fact 50:50 in our games last year even though we were the most penalised side and we did get more than any other side sent to the bin. Our games for some reason had more penalties overall than anyone else's, but the spread was even, unlike this year.

 

[mxlegend99]

Windsor came 5th 2012. NYC made semis.
Windsor made GF 2013. NYC won the comp.
2014 Penrith won NSW Cup

So there was talent at the club that for whatever reason wasn't used. Instead the plodders were used is what was behind starting this thread.

50% win record to come in is exactly in the middle. There was nothing to say he would of improved for certain. Hence why this is as a question not a statement

The reason was Gus didnt want those players developed into first graders in a losing culture.

He brought in journeymen for the transition period. I hated having those guys too. But that was on Gus. Not Ivan. Gus has said many times hefelt those guys were crucial to our rebuild and setting up our juniors to be what they are.

50% win rate at the Warriors with a write-off season where Sonny Fai died. His win rate among the other 4 seasons was 54%.

Anthony Griffin had a 53.5% win rate at the Brisbane Broncos when he joined us. He never had to deal with half the shit Ivan did at the Warriors either.

 

[Panther_Daz]

Apparently supercoach has got to the bottom of alot of the issues and a plan is now in place. "It is going to be sweet".

 

[unKwn]

Apparently supercoach has got to the bottom of alot of the issues and a plan is now in place. "It is going to be sweet".

it better be sweet

 

[age.s]

Apparently supercoach has got to the bottom of alot of the issues and a plan is now in place. "It is going to be sweet".

Well that's a relief.

I was worried we were going to get a spoon there for a minute.

 

[Tronald Crump]

Apparently supercoach has got to the bottom of alot of the issues and a plan is now in place. "It is going to be sweet".

The only sweet I see around the club is Sweet F.A

 

[betcats]

Apparently supercoach has got to the bottom of alot of the issues and a plan is now in place. "It is going to be sweet".

Where’s that coming from? Actually from someone in the club? If you don’t mind me asking.

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

Apparently supercoach has got to the bottom of alot of the issues and a plan is now in place. "It is going to be sweet".

This 'being sweet' may take time. I was happier with Ivan's communication this week than in other weeks. This week I could hear a steelyness in his tone a resolve.

I prefer things like what's doing on the be kept in house. I think at times Gus was too open with the media which led to greater issues.

None of these issue happened overnight. Now they have come home 'to roost' to coin a phrase. This 'culture' which came out for all to see in the off season was years in the making. Cleaning it up I believe will be messy and it will take time.

 

[Aliceinwonderland]

Where’s that coming from? Actually from someone in the club? If you don’t mind me asking.

Ivan\s final address today. https://www.penrithpanthers.com.au/

 

[Bob]

Apparently supercoach has got to the bottom of alot of the issues and a plan is now in place. "It is going to be sweet".

That’s what I like about you Daz you positive attitude