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"It’s very realistic to say that we’ll have a second team in Brisbane in 2023": V'landys

Messages
8,480
And how exactly are the ARLC going to pubically announce a strategy?
Anything that gets presented gets picked apart, and aslo has potential to have rival codes create problems for it to come to pass, lets say Adelaide becomes the focus point for a 19th licence, you don't think AFL won't use whatever means necessary to hinder its progression. Or Perth with both Twiggy and AFL, so its easy to say yeah lets hear it all laid out, but realistically keeping cards close to the vest is the better strategy.

It’s not about announcing the actual strategy... it’s more about stop floating these ideas into the public arena that indeed are getting picked about in the media and public..

I get that they are doing this not just to gauge public appetite, but also to keep the NRL in the media spotlight...

Im saying that the stuff lately that’s come out of PVL is not strategy, it’s bullshit...

Eg the Response to the GC Chairman who’s asked legitimately to see the business case for a 2nd Brisbane team with a flippant reply effectively ... “well we could have 5 Qld teams “...

That’ll make some laugh, don’t mess with PVL etc, but it’s disrespectful to the Chairman IMO. And bullshit..

I get, and support, the idea of a 17th team. That’s growth strategy... but what is it beyond that they want to do for the game....

While I’d love to know what that is, I honestly don’t think they know themselves yet, which is ok given last year...And of its actually happening behind closed doors then great. But... stop the floating of all this stuff into the media to keep the NRL the hot topic, it’s all smoke and mirrors. It’s bullshit...

But even if they did say that their target is to expand to Adelaide in 5 years time... I don’t see the real harm in that... yea they’d get scoffed at by many.... but so did the AFL when they brought in the GWS.... now many cricket grounds in western Sydney, and across the metro area as a whole, have 4 white posts at opposite ends...

Now that’s Strategy...

EDIT...

PS - did chuckle at the first post line “how are the ARLC going to announce something “pubically”...

love a good typo mate!
 
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Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,435
Just thinking about this again, what if the Dolphins and Adelaide were flipped, *and* with a smaller gap.. so that SE-Qld has a better window to "bed down" 3 teams before a 4th arrives?

Eg
2023 Jets or Firehawks
2025 West Coast Pirates (Perth)
2030 Adelaide Rams
2032 MB Dolphins

That gives the best part of a decade between Queensland expansions. Plenty of time.
The longer gap between B2 and B3, the harder it is for B3. If they are going to do it they need to do it quickly.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,042
It’s not about announcing the actual strategy... it’s more about stop floating these ideas into the public arena that indeed are getting picked about in the media and public..

I get that they are doing this not just to gauge public appetite, but also to keep the NRL in the media spotlight...

Im saying that the stuff lately that’s come out of PVL is not strategy, it’s bullshit...

Eg the Response to the GC Chairman who’s asked legitimately to see the business case for a 2nd Brisbane team with a flippant reply effectively ... “well we could have 5 Qld teams “...

That’ll make some laugh, don’t mess with PVL etc, but it’s disrespectful to the Chairman IMO. And bullshit..

I get, and support, the idea of a 17th team. That’s growth strategy... but what is it beyond that they want to do for the game....

While I’d love to know what that is, I honestly don’t think they know themselves yet, which is ok given last year...And of its actually happening behind closed doors then great. But... stop the floating of all this stuff into the media to keep the NRL the hot topic, it’s all smoke and mirrors. It’s bullshit...

But even if they did say that their target is to expand to Adelaide in 5 years time... I don’t see the real harm in that... yea they’d get scoffed at by many.... but so did the AFL when they brought in the GWS.... now many cricket grounds in western Sydney, and across the metro area as a whole, have 4 white posts at opposite ends...

Now that’s Strategy...

EDIT...

PS - did chuckle at the first post line “how are the ARLC going to announce something “pubically”...

love a good typo mate!

Typos happen, its not like the grammar police has hefty fines on a RL forum..tehe

Keeping the nrl relevant in the media, is better than no news at all, especially when news ltd is basically raking in all that advert exposure.

Expansion has been pushed aside long enough, and for the league to name themselves "National" in 1998 technically it was with Adelaide rams being there and Melbourne starting off.
If only the Reds and Rams continued on, half the footprint issues everyone raves on about wouldn't look so bad.

I reckon another 5 years we'll see a better outline of where NRL is heading under Abdo, but until then pulling up every quote this past year thats been touted is a bit premature.
I believe we are righting the ship as soon as the competition is heading towards 18 clubs.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
Just thinking about this again, what if the Dolphins and Adelaide were flipped, *and* with a smaller gap.. so that SE-Qld has a better window to "bed down" 3 teams before a 4th arrives?

Eg
2023 Jets or Firehawks
2025 West Coast Pirates (Perth)
2030 Adelaide Rams
2032 MB Dolphins

That gives the best part of a decade between Queensland expansions. Plenty of time.
Just because something maybe be possible that doesn't make it desirable.

When we pick where the next licenses should go the first question we should ask is where do we need teams to effect the most possible growth for the sport over X period of time.
After that question has been answered the next should be of those clubs we need which are feasible to join the league now and what will it take to prepare the others to support clubs.

There is no rational argument you could give me that suggests we need three clubs in Brisbane in the foreseeable future (lets say next roughly 20 years), and certainly not when other important markets like Perth and Adelaide don't have their first clubs cemented into their markets.

There's also no way you could ever convince me that SEQ could support two clubs being introduced to Brisbane in under a decade without there being major negative impacts. Especially if we hope to not seriously impact on other clubs in the league, namely the Titans and Storm.

If we add a second club and it's a massive success with heaps of observable demand for a third then that is the time to start talking about a third, but until then a bit of restraint is good. There's no rush, Brisbane can more than survive with two clubs.
 
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MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,042
Just because something maybe be possible that doesn't make it desirable.

When we pick where the next licenses should go the first question we should ask is where do we need teams to effect the most possible growth for the sport over X period of time.
After that question has been answered the next should be of those clubs we need which are feasible to join the league now and what will it take to prepare the others to support clubs.

There is no rational argument you could give me that suggests we need three clubs in Brisbane in the foreseeable future (lets say next roughly 20 years), and certainly not when other important markets like Perth and Adelaide don't have their first clubs cemented into their markets.

There's also no way you could ever convince me that the SEQ could support two clubs being introduced to Brisbane in under a decade without there being major negative impacts. Especially if we hope to not seriously impact on other clubs in the league, namely the Titans and Storm.

If we add a second club and it's a massive success with heaps of observable demand for a third then we should start talking about a third, but until then a bit of restraint is good. There's no rush, Brisbane can more than survive with two clubs.
Agreed, but we still need to think about if Perth and Adelaide will work without propping up their 1st grade rosters from interstate players, i get that perth is at least playing junior leagues, but still won't get to the standard that another 5th QLD side could produce.
Its easy to say yes we need SA and WA markets, but if they are running out sides that can't compete against the run of the mill NRL side like the tigers for example, then whats the point.
For me there's a genuine need for teams that play regularly at a higher level to be promoted into 1st grade or at least where there is a strength in players, like SEQ, PNG or NZ. yes we can just set up a pathway for them to play in SA instead, but all your doing is what Melbourne are doing with QLD, and it would be very hard to replicate that, without the same people who run that club, and fat chance they'll want to teach a new franchise their ins and outs as they'll potentially create themselves a rival, that would hinder their own processes.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
Agreed, but we still need to think about if Perth and Adelaide will work without propping up their 1st grade rosters from interstate players, i get that perth is at least playing junior leagues, but still won't get to the standard that another 5th QLD side could produce.
Its easy to say yes we need SA and WA markets, but if they are running out sides that can't compete against the run of the mill NRL side like the tigers for example, then whats the point.
For me there's a genuine need for teams that play regularly at a higher level to be promoted into 1st grade or at least where there is a strength in players, like SEQ, PNG or NZ. yes we can just set up a pathway for them to play in SA instead, but all your doing is what Melbourne are doing with QLD, and it would be very hard to replicate that, without the same people who run that club, and fat chance they'll want to teach a new franchise their ins and outs as they'll potentially create themselves a rival, that would hinder their own processes.
Mate, the only way you are ever going to develop the grassroots in markets new to the sport (relatively speaking) to the point where they are producing enough juniors to independently support a club is if you have big professional clubs to push that growth.

In other words, if you want to see enough interest in RL in WA and SA that they regularly produce NRL quality talent then you need to take a top down approach where local NRL clubs provide enough exposure for the sport that it creates interest in the sport at the grassroots. If you don't have that RL will simply be smothered out by the AFL, and other popular sports in the region, and stay a niche interest forever.

Even once you start that process it will take generations of investment, growth, and improvement before they will start producing talent regularly, and that is if we assume that the clubs will have a focus on junior develop and the NRL will assist in facilitating that growth from day one, neither of which happened in the Storm's case until very recently.

Who really gives a f**k about local juniors anymore anyway. I mean take a look at the major sports around the world; RL (if we can honestly claim it is a major sport on the world stage) is just about the last one that is reliant on the handful of professional clubs to facilitate the develop of players, and the only one where anybody actually gives a f**k where a club's players are from anymore.

The whole local juniors and catchments way of thinking is archaic and a stupid way of doing things, it's also the whole reason why there's been little to no support for the grassroots outside of the NRL clubs catchments, and thus why the grassroots in places like Vic, WA, SA, etc, are in such bad shape to begin with.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,042
Mate, the only way you are ever going to develop the grassroots in markets new to the sport (relatively speaking) to the point where they are producing enough juniors to independently support a club is if you have big professional clubs to push that growth.

In other words, if you want to see enough interest in RL in WA and SA that they regularly produce NRL quality talent then you need to take a top down approach where local NRL clubs provide enough exposure for the sport that it creates interest in the sport at the grassroots. If you don't have that RL will simply be smothered out by the AFL, and other popular sports in the region, and stay a niche interest forever.

Even once you start that process it will take generations of investment, growth, and improvement before they will start producing talent regularly, and that is if we assume that the clubs will have a focus on junior develop and the NRL will assist in facilitating that growth from day one, neither of which happened in the Storm's case until very recently.

Who really gives a f**k about local juniors anymore anyway. I mean take a look at the major sports around the world; RL (if we can honestly claim it is a major sport on the world stage) is just about the last one that is reliant on the handful of professional clubs to facilitate the develop of players, and the only one where anybody actually gives a f**k where a club's players are from anymore.

The whole local juniors and catchments way of thinking is archaic and a stupid way of doing things, it's also the whole reason why there's been little to no support for the grassroots outside of the NRL clubs catchments, and thus why the grassroots in places like Vic, WA, SA, etc, are in such bad shape to begin with.
Well we are talking about rugby league, not the other sporting codes of the world, but i don't see what Melbourne storm has done for junior participation in Victoria, not with ALF and its 9+ clubs there.
Yes i agree there needs to be a start at some point in perth, but is that soon within the next 5-10 years, or should we first expand in SEQ, like they've been saying and get enough first grade talent to spread into WA or SA, coz all i see is if we do expand there, it'll just be cannon fodder for a decade, regardless of how many marquee signings they bring from interstate. I don't see a top down approach unless a current successfully run team relocates there.

I'm not saying they need to be finalists first year, but they can't be spooners either, with all the crap that gold coast titans have gotten over the years, at least they weren't cellar dwellers when they started as the titans, that came later, when the bulk of their side were overpaid journeymen, and players that were at the arse end of their career looking for their last contract payday.
What they've done these past few years is used there juniors plus a few key signings to bolster that 1st grade side.

That will need to happen for Perth or whoever is next to pick up a licence, remember you need 30 man roster minimum, perth might get 10 imports from outer state or overseas, but wheres the other 20 coming from, they'll be from their area, their catchment, and as they are playing SG ball, they aren't winning many games over the past 5 years, and not comparable to the sides who have established junior leagues.

So say whatever about the archaic nature of that line of thought, but its reality, i could easily see a team from PNG (hunters) put the cleaners thru, the dogs at the moment, what chance would the Pirates have?

Don't get me wrong I want a Perth and Adelaide team, but we can't rush it, just coz the game overall needs those markets.
They have to be somewhat successful, maybe not top8, but can't be bottom 4 either.

Canberra was a great example of what these cities need to go through till they can match it with the rest of the league, it wasn't till they started grabbing the QLD talent, that they became a powerhouse some 5 years after inception, today's sporting world is a lot different from back in the 80s, you need to have some success to attract the calibre of talent to make both those cities worth expanding to.

Melbourne started out over a few teams rosters being pooled from the mariners and reds, unless something similar happens again (which i hope not) or relocation of a well run side, not a broke down run out of money struggling, last resort port over club, that will only suffer in wherever they came from aswell as the new city not wanting them either, thinking they are the scraps they've been given.
 
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mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,808
Mate, the only way you are ever going to develop the grassroots in markets new to the sport (relatively speaking) to the point where they are producing enough juniors to independently support a club is if you have big professional clubs to push that growth.

In other words, if you want to see enough interest in RL in WA and SA that they regularly produce NRL quality talent then you need to take a top down approach where local NRL clubs provide enough exposure for the sport that it creates interest in the sport at the grassroots. If you don't have that RL will simply be smothered out by the AFL, and other popular sports in the region, and stay a niche interest forever.

Even once you start that process it will take generations of investment, growth, and improvement before they will start producing talent regularly, and that is if we assume that the clubs will have a focus on junior develop and the NRL will assist in facilitating that growth from day one, neither of which happened in the Storm's case until very recently.

Who really gives a f**k about local juniors anymore anyway. I mean take a look at the major sports around the world; RL (if we can honestly claim it is a major sport on the world stage) is just about the last one that is reliant on the handful of professional clubs to facilitate the develop of players, and the only one where anybody actually gives a f**k where a club's players are from anymore.

The whole local juniors and catchments way of thinking is archaic and a stupid way of doing things, it's also the whole reason why there's been little to no support for the grassroots outside of the NRL clubs catchments, and thus why the grassroots in places like Vic, WA, SA, etc, are in such bad shape to begin with.

Good post, it drives me crazy when people keep expecting Perth or Adelaide to show huge participation rates before they can be considered for an NRL team. League barely has any presence or profile in these cities and a lot of kids don't want to relocate to the east coast for a chance to play NRL.
It's like expecting some girl to like you before you've even talked to her or shown her you exist.
 

Jamberoo

Juniors
Messages
1,435
Forget Adelaide.
Adelaide is a small, slow growing city compared to the other mainland capitals. They might get Ok crowds as South Aussies are very parochial, but Adelaide is like an extreme version of Melbourne in their love for AFL. It dominates the whole psyche of the city. There would be insignificant ratings and they won’t ever produce any players. It would be like the AFL putting a team in Newcastle.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,042
Good post, it drives me crazy when people keep expecting Perth or Adelaide to show huge participation rates before they can be considered for an NRL team. League barely has any presence or profile in these cities and a lot of kids don't want to relocate to the east coast for a chance to play NRL.
It's like expecting some girl to like you before you've even talked to her or shown her you exist.
I don't mean just huge participation rates matter, i mean actual junior reserve grade talent, that can at least fill a 20 man squad, and still be competetive at a somewhat at that reserve grade level, and i know we are going in endless circles, coz without a large participation at junior level, you won't get enough greenshoots to get that amount of depth at that level, but at least WA is trying and will get there eventually, it's just not there now, and probably won't be for at least another half decade, all depends on how invested either the NRL or WANRL are to acheiving that.

SA aren't anywhere near what perth have done, so that's a pipedream to be honest, unless a relocation happens for Adelaide.

There are clubs in QLD that are there now and have been for sometime, even if those players get picked up by the storm or other clubs, they still are competetive as a club overall.
What they probably need is a reserve grade team playing in an interstate comp, but this comp can't be just 8 weeks then done, it needs to be at least 20 rounds, something like the ron massey cup, currently where they have the Kavati Silktails from fiji... i know late 2000s the WA reds were part of it, that's what they'll need to do to grow their base again.

They were on the right track back then, obviously NRL admin was too lazy or too conservative to expand, but its looking like this admin are, but again its up to perth to push hard for it, ARLC wont plonk a team or licence there if they have to steer it aswell.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,548
When the western reds came I. they brought over 50 plus players from the east coast from ages 17 upwards to experienced first graders. but this is where strategy and long term thinking comes in. IF the NRL wants to be national, wants exposure in the countries 4th biggest city and had a commitment to bring perth into the nrl they should be seriously funding the jnr pathways much greater than they are NOW!

Afl identified expansion into western Sydney in 1998 as a strategic goal. After failing to get a melbourne club to relocate In 2006 they put serious funding into the nsw academy and western Sydney scholarship scheme. in 2007 they got govt support for a new club and in 2008 registered the name and got the other clubs support for expansion. 2009 more money was put into the nsw academy set up and top coaches appointed.2010 coaches and sponsors signed up and club plays in two seasons in lower leagues whilst ot signs players and coaches. 2012 makes it debut.

now that’s how you set a strategy and see it through!
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,548
That will need to happen for Perth or whoever is next to pick up a licence, remember you need 30 man roster minimum, perth might get 10 imports from outer state or overseas, but wheres the other 20 coming from, they'll be from their area, their catchment, and as they are playing SG ball, they aren't winning many games over the past 5 years, and not comparable to the sides who have established junior leagues.
.

Why 10? Reality is probably 28 of the 30 man first team squad will come from overseas and interstate as it did in 1995. What resources the club has, who the head coach is, how attractive the new club looks, whose off contract etc etc will all play major parts in how successful a new Perth club is in attracting a decent squad in its formative years.
Ideally of course the NRl would know what the frick it was doing and where it was going and if it was Perth we would already have had the investment needed to generate more first grade players. Ideally you would see us be funded to enter the NSW cup three years before NRL admission so we can take the best 18-20 year olds at home and from elsewhere and be developing them ready for first grade, we would see NRL invest in our elite academy and SG ball set up now and we'd have some out of the box thinking about how the Pirates could partner with PNG or UK to help increase its jnr feeder pool. But that all takes strategic vision and planning, so we will bumble along, make swift and short sighted decisions and then ponder where it all went wrong if it goes tits up like previous forays at expansion.

NRL is lazy, risk averse, constantly internally fighting, ruled by media and lacks ambition. Its why AFL will eventually win this war.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,548
NRL CEO Andrew Abdo insists possible expansion with a second Brisbane team can be a positive for Gold Coast and won't necessarily cannibalise the market.

League bosses met with Titans officials on Wednesday in a lengthy two-and-a-half hour meeting, with expansion into south-east Queensland part of the agenda.

The NRL have been determined to point out that a 17th team is not a forgone conclusion, and any decision will be based on the findings of a feasibility study.


But a deadline is fast approaching.

The league would want to have expansion confirmed by July, giving the possible new franchise 18 months to set up and enter the player market.

Titans co-owner Darryl Kelly this week criticised the NRL over the move, claiming they were forging ahead without proof that it would be sustainable for the sport.

But speaking at the Magic Round launch, Abdo insisted that was not the case, and also argued it could benefit clubs like the Titans.

"It needs to create growth. We're talking about new fans, new players and new participants into the game. And not necessarily cannibalising," Abdo said.

"And competition is good too. We have seen across many sports that having two teams in one market is great for fans but also both clubs.

"That results in rivalries we have seen across multiple codes.

"This is a complex and really important decision. It's going to be carefully worked through."

The Redcliffe bid remain the front-runners for any potential expansion side alongside the combined Ipswich Jets-Brisbane Bombers consortium and Easts Tigers-backed Brisbane Firehawks.

Meanwhile Abdo also insisted there was no immediate issues with the Titans, despite Kelly's claims in the media this week.

The club are among the favourites for expansion in the women's game, which is set to go to six clubs this year and eight in 2022.

Titans CEO Steve Mitchell has been among the most vocal in his push for a bigger women's league, with growth being publicly discussed in both competitions.

"It was a terrific meeting," Abdo said of Wednesday's discussions.

"We had a great two-and-a-half hours talking about the future, the club and rugby league broadly in Australia.

"It was an incredibly positive conversation. We exchanged information and views.

"We said to the Titans as we said to all clubs, we will communicate throughout this (men's expansion) process."

NRL expansion can benefit Titans: Abdo (denipt.com.au)
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,042
Why 10? Reality is probably 28 of the 30 man first team squad will come from overseas and interstate as it did in 1995. What resources the club has, who the head coach is, how attractive the new club looks, whose off contract etc etc will all play major parts in how successful a new Perth club is in attracting a decent squad in its formative years.
Ideally of course the NRl would know what the frick it was doing and where it was going and if it was Perth we would already have had the investment needed to generate more first grade players. Ideally you would see us be funded to enter the NSW cup three years before NRL admission so we can take the best 18-20 year olds at home and from elsewhere and be developing them ready for first grade, we would see NRL invest in our elite academy and SG ball set up now and we'd have some out of the box thinking about how the Pirates could partner with PNG or UK to help increase its jnr feeder pool. But that all takes strategic vision and planning, so we will bumble along, make swift and short sighted decisions and then ponder where it all went wrong if it goes tits up like previous forays at expansion.

NRL is lazy, risk averse, constantly internally fighting, ruled by media and lacks ambition. Its why AFL will eventually win this war.
Yep, a perth team will cannibalize the other 17 teams, by trying take 28 players out of their pool, this is what they shouldn't be doing, and why they shouldn't be the next team, the new licences shouldn't be taking the bulk of there team away from other clubs, otherwise we can just implant a team in china rather than perth
 

cumbrian Mackem

Juniors
Messages
2,232
Yep, a perth team will cannibalize the other 17 teams, by trying take 28 players out of their pool, this is what they shouldn't be doing, and why they shouldn't be the next team, the new licences shouldn't be taking the bulk of there team away from other clubs, otherwise we can just implant a team in china rather than perth
Where will Brisbane2 get their players from?
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,548
Yep, a perth team will cannibalize the other 17 teams, by trying take 28 players out of their pool, this is what they shouldn't be doing, and why they shouldn't be the next team, the new licences shouldn't be taking the bulk of there team away from other clubs, otherwise we can just implant a team in china rather than perth

You think the new Brisbane club isnt going to do exactly the same thing? its not like they will promote the majority of their QRL team! Thats the reality of expanding, the first few years draws on the existing player base whilst the club builds up its own stocks. It will be the same wherever the NRL decides to expand to. If the NRl was really concenred about this they could have a number of startegies to reduce th eimpact
Salary cap concessions for signing players outside of current NRL squads
Longer lead in time for expansion club to build its own reserve grades
Partnership support with PNG

But even with all that any new club is going to go hard to sign the best current NRL players they can, its inevitable!
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
15,042
You think the new Brisbane club isnt going to do exactly the same thing? its not like they will promote the majority of their QRL team! Thats the reality of expanding, the first few years draws on the existing player base whilst the club builds up its own stocks. It will be the same wherever the NRL decides to expand to. If the NRl was really concenred about this they could have a number of startegies to reduce th eimpact
Salary cap concessions for signing players outside of current NRL squads
Longer lead in time for expansion club to build its own reserve grades
Partnership support with PNG

But even with all that any new club is going to go hard to sign the best current NRL players they can, its inevitable!
Nope about 10 marquee players the rest from thier area, no one would accept expansion if that would happen, you're off your head if you think teams would let go of 2 nrl grade players to another new club, what benefit will they get? thats why titans a spearheading against the bris2. The Melbourne system of poaching from QLD and NZ wont last, its unsustainable, and getting perth or whoever else to do the same will ruin the overall game
 

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