Johnson v Jones

[tangalife]

Johnsons still got a long way to go. I think people get blinded by his highlight reel tries and forget he still doesnt know how to lead the team around.

Doesn't play well without his confidence either. One thing I do like is he has come through leaps and bounds with his defence.

He's going through a good patch lately though if he keeps it up long term he will become the best player in the game.

 

[vvvrulz]

As others have mentioned it's very hard to compare the two as they are wildly different.

Stacey Jones had to lead a mediocre team for most of his career and stood up like a pillar.
SJ has the privilege of class players around him most of the time, and goes visibly missing when things aren't right.

Jones had a great rugby league brain and was more methodical and structured in his approach.
Johnson is purely instinctive and thrives when there is no plan and his mind is clear.

It's like Dravid vs Tendulkar, apples to oranges.

It's easier to choose a favorite rather than ranking them.

 

[tangalife]

Also I think a better comparison would be Benji vs Johnson just because of playing in the same era (at least half of it) and very similar playing styles.

And before we kick the debate off, just want to think back and remember Benji was a great player at one stage.

 

[Warrior@Heart]

Not sure about this argument. Leaving out Toopi, Ali, Marsh from the 2001-2003 equation creates a very unbalanced view. There may be more strike in the 2015 team across the board, but those 3 in 2002 especially were on another level.

I wasn't saying they weren't a good team, I was more comparing the team to Newcastle (Johns, Tahu, Gidley, Buderus, Hughes, O'Davis, Macdougall, Simpson) Brisbane (Tallis, Lockyer, Tuqiri, Webcke, Petero, Carlaw, Carroll) Roosters (Fittler, Mini, Morley, Hodges, Hegarty, Wing, Fitzgibbon, Ricketson) and they still managed to make a grand final.

 

[Warrior@Heart]

I do agree that in retrospect the team wasn't as strong on paper as it might've seemed at the time but it was just a lot of guys in career best form. At various points in that period of time the likes of Lauiti'iti, Toopi, Meli, Marsh, Seuseu, Faumuina, Webb were all guns.

I agree on that but I wasn't one of the people that overhyped the Warriors at those times, maybe it was just me but I hated Seuseu, Faumuina, Lauatiti & Meli. Only good on attack really.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

maybe it was just me but I hated Seuseu, Faumuina, Lauatiti & Meli. Only good on attack really.

jeez you must've really had a rough time supporting us when we were good :?

For my money at times (Lauiti'iti 2002, Faumuina 2005 come to mind) those guys were better players than Stacey. Maybe not as dominant given his role as a halfback, but better players in their respective positions.

 

[jaseg]

I wasn't saying they weren't a good team, I was more comparing the team to Newcastle (Johns, Tahu, Gidley, Buderus, Hughes, O'Davis, Macdougall, Simpson) Brisbane (Tallis, Lockyer, Tuqiri, Webcke, Petero, Carlaw, Carroll) Roosters (Fittler, Mini, Morley, Hodges, Hegarty, Wing, Fitzgibbon, Ricketson) and they still managed to make a grand final.

Nitpicking: Simpson? Hegarty? - then leaving out some of our best from the same era? Hardly an apt comparison. Alfie also played for unfancied Origin teams and excelled - and is anyone seriously going to try the argument that Jones was even at a par with Johns (despite any perceived difference in teams)? We made the grand final the year the best team was excluded. It's a great achievement nonetheless, but hardly something huge in Jones' favour.. SJ had a team in the grand final in his first year, and it was far from a classic side. Too many external factors.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that Jones wasn't at the very top of the pile even at his best. I can't ever realistically say he was better than 3rd or 4th best half at any point in his career - and I believe Johnson can already claim as good or better. I guess there's an argument to be made about the lack of high quality playmaking depth in the NRL in comparison to the previous era, but that's part of the issue when comparing players - I think Johnson looks a better player now that Jones did (he certainly gets more tries, linebreaks and assists - the guy is verging on Benji-at-his-best figures... only without the errors/penalties and being a better defender), and I think Johnson has a higher standing in the game than Jones did in his era.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I agree on that but I wasn't one of the people that overhyped the Warriors at those times, maybe it was just me but I hated Seuseu, Faumuina, Lauatiti & Meli. Only good on attack really.

Ask Brent Tate if Francis Meli could defend.

 

[ozbash]

Also I think a better comparison would be Benji vs Johnson just because of playing in the same era (at least half of it) and very similar playing styles.

And before we kick the debate off, just want to think back and remember Benji was a great player at one stage.

I think Benji still is..

Hard to say who is "better"... Benji at this point and time, maybe...

 

[sup42]

There is a reason Mark Graham and Jones were the best of all time in Positions.....no one came close to being as complete Rugby league players as those two and a standout that is beloved by League experts around the world.

Johnson has played against Thurston Smith Cronk.

Hard to compare era's.......but Johnson never played the Kangaroos with Sione Faumuina or Ropati as his six.
Jones played Johns Fittler and Lockyer.

Johnson gets a specialist six to launch off and thereby he probably will surpass Jones....even though in my mind he's not yet passed Marshalls achievements yet.

 

[JJ]

With all due respect to Stacey...what had he achieved in the first 5 years of his career?

Shaun has played in GF, won a golden boot award and beaten the Aussies 3 times in row.

I guess the real question would be...would you prefer Stacey Jones circa 2000 playing for the warriors this weekend...or Shaun?

League's a team game, I thought - not to mention one of those Australian teams was very poor, and the golden boot seems to have changed in recent times - it used to be for (arguably) the world's best player - there is no sane argument than Johnson is the world's best player

That said, I am happy saying there is little between them, and they have broadly similar strengths and weaknesses

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Hard to compare era's.......but Johnson never played the Kangaroos with Sione Faumuina or Ropati as his six.

So are you talking up Jones or Thomas Leuluai? Because I think you'll find it was barely 18 year old Thomas Leuluai who partnered Faumuina in the halves in 2003 when we thrashed the Aussies.

Yes, Jones did well to get us a couple of wins in 2005 but then Benji got us wins in 2008 and 2010 and Shaun likewise in 2014 and 2015.

I think really the common factor between those wins is that when the Kiwis beat the Kangaroos it isn't usually about the halves. If anything Shaun has turned in the most dominant performances.

 

[Blair]

The Warrior Princess versus The Little General.

Sounds like something from Game of Thrones!

 

[sup42]

So are you talking up Jones or Thomas Leuluai? Because I think you'll find it was barely 18 year old Thomas Leuluai who partnered Faumuina in the halves in 2003 when we thrashed the Aussies.

Yes, Jones did well to get us a couple of wins in 2005 but then Benji got us wins in 2008 and 2010 and Shaun likewise in 2014 and 2015.

I think really the common factor between those wins is that when the Kiwis beat the Kangaroos it isn't usually about the halves. If anything Shaun has turned in the most dominant performances.

Memory's not what it was...I confused Jones and Sione's dalliances at the Warriors for what was happening on the international stage.

Benji Versus Jones as you pointed out in terms of achievements is more relevant as a who is the best half that NZ has had than Jones V Johnson......as much as Johnson looks like he will be the best in time....he is behind both Marshall and Jones imo.

I don't like the way benji plays....I prefer to watch Johnson, but results are too easily dismissed in these arguments and if you are making a results based comparison (the only objective measure between era) then Benji Marshall is the best Half NZ has ever produced.

But the thing is we all know Jones was a one man band and single handedly beat teams where other players never will.

There was an ANZAC test in Aus...can't remember the year....where Jones's performance typified his greatness....the Kiwis were getting a hiding coz they were shit.....Jones orchestrated an improbable almost comeback...as he used to due to freak mentality that a game is never lost....that's why he is NZ's all time no 2 player....all those improbable come backs driven by one player.

 

[vvvrulz]

There was an ANZAC test in Aus...can't remember the year....where Jones's performance typified his greatness....the Kiwis were getting a hiding coz they were shit.....Jones orchestrated an improbable almost comeback...as he used to due to freak mentality that a game is never lost....that's why he is NZ's all time no 2 player....all those improbable come backs driven by one player.

Anyone remember the year? This sounds awesome.

I recall one where we were down 20-0 or similar at half time, and in the second half Soiola, Asotasi and co. smashed relentlessly into Australia all half and were making 50-80 metres per set.

We lost but it was much better than most Anzac tests.

 

[JJ]

Think both Stacey and Shaun are being a bit overrated here tbh

 

[Tommy Smith]

You want to know the scary thing? Roger Tuivasa-Sheck is better than Shaun Johnson.

As a Roosters fan who's seen him week in, week out; he's the most freakish player I've seen this side of Jarryd Hayne & SBW.

Very scary for the NRL.

 

[jaseg]

You want to know the scary thing? Roger Tuivasa-Sheck is better than Shaun Johnson.

As a Roosters fan who's seen him week in, week out; he's the most freakish player I've seen this side of Jarryd Hayne & SBW.

Very scary for the NRL.

Now that IS hard to compare - they might both have great footwork and speed, but quite different players on the whole (and playing different positions obviously). RTS does look very good - not sure he's the only (or the best) young beast of a fullback going around though.. I've had James Tedesco marked down as the best young fullback for a couple of years now, and not yet seen enough to change my mind. Of course, he's been training and playing in the position for a fair bit longer than RTS. Will be amazing to have them both (and playing off the back of Luke), even though it is at the cost of Tomkins.

 

[Matua]

Johnson better than Jones?
:crazy::crazy::crazy:

 

[ozbash]

The thing with RTS is that he can see what's going on from the back.

SJ just plays what's in front of him. He doesn't actually think about what he's doing..
Benji was the same..