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Kearney is not the problem

pk76

Juniors
Messages
345
I was ambivalent when Kearney arrived at the club and still not sure if he is/was a good coach.

However, I respect him for his integrity and vision to rebuild this club. I think that history will judge him postively, as he really has set a foundation for the next 2-3 years.

It's all academic now but those people who destructively criticised Kearney, clearly have no experience in coaching at any level. The coach is not the one dropping balls or commiting indiscipline.
 

bartman

Immortal
Messages
41,022
To the tune of... yeah, you know the song:

Goodbye Coach Kearney,
Though I never knew you at all
You had the balls to overstay your role
While those around you fell...
They fell out of contention,
While they asked for some game plans!
They set you on the dole queue,
And they made you change careers.

And it seems to me you lived your life
Like a coach who earned a spoon?
Never knowing who to turn to
When the rot set in.
And I would have liked to have shown you,
But I was just a fan....
Your time here burned out long before
you thought you'd leave again.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
90,850
So now we can find out if SK WAS the problem?

I'll give the new bloke 41 games before I judge him.

His first season results will be down to the quality of the squad he inherited.

Our results won't reflect the new coach's ability for a good two or three seasons. Of course, if those results are poor he won't get that long.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
90,850
I was ambivalent when Kearney arrived at the club and still not sure if he is/was a good coach.

However, I respect him for his integrity and vision to rebuild this club. I think that history will judge him postively, as he really has set a foundation for the next 2-3 years.

It's all academic now but those people who destructively criticised Kearney, clearly have no experience in coaching at any level. The coach is not the one dropping balls or commiting indiscipline.

Good post.
 

oldmancraigy

Coach
Messages
11,895
His first season results will be down to the quality of the squad he inherited.

Our results won't reflect the new coach's ability for a good two or three seasons. Of course, if those results are poor he won't get that long.

Well if he manages to win more than 3 games before round 20 I think we'll all agree that he was better than the boofhead before him.

But your whole argument is dead in the water.

You are talking simply about recruitment and not about coaching

A good coach can get a bad squad to overachieve.
A bad coach can get a good squad to underachieve.

You can't honestly watch the games of football that we've played this season and think that SK is a good "X's and O'x" coach can you???

Sure, the new bloke will be bound next season by whether or not SK built a good squad. But even if it's a dud squad, by the following year a halfway decent coach will have taken steps to make that squad competitive (not turned it into an absolute rabble).

Newsflash: There's a reason that SK has the second worst coaching record in the entire history of rugby league.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
90,850
Well if he manages to win more than 3 games before round 20 I think we'll all agree that he was better than the boofhead before him.

He'll have a better squad than the bloke before him so they can't be compared.

But your whole argument is dead in the water.

Sorry mate but you can't say that about smart people. My argument is valid for the simple fact that it's my argument.

You are talking simply about recruitment and not about coaching

I am also talking about development. Along with recruiting, they are the biggest part of what a coach brings at this level.

I base this on years of paying attention to the best coaches in their game and what they have to say about their role, as well as their results with different squads, and their teams' performances without certain key players.

A good coach can get a bad squad to overachieve.

Agree totally. But even getting a squad to overachieve isn't the mark of a great coach - Brian Smith is probably the best coach in history at getting an average squad to perform at a consistently high level, but very few people consider him a great, and after 20+ years his lack of premierships speaks for itself.

A bad coach can get a good squad to underachieve.

I think it's better to say a bad coach won't be able to prevent a good squad from underachieving (and this is more than just semantics). There are a multitude of reasons a good squad might underachieve and some of those reasons even the best coaches will be unable to resolve.

This is why I think once the squad is assembled there isn't much a coach can do to stop the rot other than get rid of people - look at Cleary at Penrith. Making tougher decisions than Kearney all year, only has one extra win with two extra Origin players, but his job is safe.

To be honest Kearney should have wielded the axe with more venom and he should have started with stripping the captaincy, like Cleary has done.

You can't honestly watch the games of football that we've played this season and think that SK is a good "X's and O'x" coach can you???

I think he's no worse than average. The only good tactical coaches in the game are Hasler and Smith, imo. They're the only ones who consistently look to exploit loopholes in the rules. Others like Bennett and Bellamy keep things very simple and rely on either key decision makers (Bellamy) or a strong squad (Bennett) for execution.

Tactics are very overrated, and seem to be an obsession with keyboard coaches.

And no, I'm a keyboard commentator if anything.

Sure, the new bloke will be bound next season by whether or not SK built a good squad. But even if it's a dud squad, by the following year a halfway decent coach will have taken steps to make that squad competitive (not turned it into an absolute rabble).

Newsflash: There's a reason that SK has the second worst coaching record in the entire history of rugby league.

Because during his entire tenure he's had a shit squad?
 

oldmancraigy

Coach
Messages
11,895
Sorry mate but you can't say that about smart people. My argument is valid for the simple fact that it's my argument.

That sounds like the kind of sentence you have a dig at bartman for!!

Unfortunately there is such a thing as a non-sequitur. [a logical fallacy where the conclusion is not supported by its premise]

That's a fair assessment of your circular on SK.

You aim to focus on the fact that there are variables, claim that they are all working against him at the moment, and suggest that he is working to correct them all. How can you be wrong? Because if anyone points out failure in any of the variable components, then you just push that variable against another and point forward.

This kind of argument works over a small sample size. But our current sample is far too large for your argument to be successful, hence it actually IS dead in the water.

Especially considering one of your premises: it follow the lines of "if someone can't get a coaching job, then they aren't a very good coach."
And here's the uncomfortable non-variable that comes into play. No other team will be sacking their coach to bring in the alleged "master builder" Kearney.

You can push that up against as many variables as you like, but until he gets a job, your argument is now dead in the water. It could only possibly work when he was employed at the club.



I am also talking about development. Along with recruiting, they are the biggest part of what a coach brings at this level.

I base this on years of paying attention to the best coaches in their game and what they have to say about their role, as well as their results with different squads, and their teams' performances without certain key players.


Ever coached a sporting team? I've been coaching for many many years (basketball). 9 premierships with 3 different teams. Systems are extraordinarily important, but Xs and Os are equally so.

If you think that Bennett/ Bellamy don't do Xs and Os then you're as high as Casper.

You can call me a keyboard coach all you like. But I'd happily teach Ryan Morgan not to rush into the middle third of the field to mark the same person Maitua is already tackling. Oh wait, that is called tactics.
Every coach has them, you're just too simple to see that.

But even getting a squad to overachieve isn't the mark of a great coach - Brian Smith is probably the best coach in history at getting an average squad to perform at a consistently high level, but very few people consider him a great, and after 20+ years his lack of premierships speaks for itself.
But nobody can say the guy was a BAD coach. And when he came to clubs in salary cap hell with bad contracts, he found ways of improving from the get-go.


I think it's better to say a bad coach won't be able to prevent a good squad from underachieving (and this is more than just semantics). There are a multitude of reasons a good squad might underachieve and some of those reasons even the best coaches will be unable to resolve.

Difference between underachieving and so far gone it isn't funny.


This is why I think once the squad is assembled there isn't much a coach can do to stop the rot other than get rid of people - look at Cleary at Penrith. Making tougher decisions than Kearney all year, only has one extra win with two extra Origin players, but his job is safe.

And if Cleary regressed next season, then questions would be asked.

To be honest Kearney should have wielded the axe with more venom and he should have started with stripping the captaincy, like Cleary has done.

Exactly. His indecision has cost him. That's actually part of being a bad coach. The 'system' he used last year worked, he went away from it this year because he stopped trusting in it. But failed to act decisively, instead fumbled around with stupid experiments (like bringing Burt back from Wenty etc)




Just give up on the SK thing? You had some fun, you made some people look pretty stupid, you annoyed some people, but it's time to let it go. You don't even have to admit anything, just walk away from it and put your powers to good use!
It used to be interesting to read your take on a game, and where you thought things fell apart, who you thought played well. Get back to it please.
 

Sphagnum

Coach
Messages
13,067
You can only blame the squad for so long PouPou. Eventually you have to come around to the fact that Kearney wasn't up to it and that wasn't going to change any time soon.

We have seen individuals in this team play alot better than they have this year. We've also seen them enjoy their footy more than they appear to this year. If a coach's job isn't to get the individuals and the team to perform at their peak every game than what is the coach's job?

Like many, he overestimated his capabilities in the role he applied for and has been found 'incompetent'. His refusal to allow the club to bring in development opportunities for him (experienced coaches who aren't washed up has-beens on death's door) is symptomatic of him realising he was incompetent but refusing to acknowledge it to those around him.

Whether the players liked him or not, they would have found it very hard to believe in something he had stopped believing himself and theirin lies the problem.

Unfortunately, that problem is terminal and a decision had to be made.
 

Ratchy

Juniors
Messages
1,507
You can only blame the squad for so long PouPou.

The squad was to blame last year and to some extent this year. While SK signed players the forward pack is still under par. The problem is next year will be not much different IMO as the recruitment has been somewhat underwhelming.
 

oldmancraigy

Coach
Messages
11,895
The squad was to blame last year and to some extent this year. While SK signed players the forward pack is still under par. The problem is next year will be not much different IMO as the recruitment has been somewhat underwhelming.

Why do so many people fail to realize that the forward pack competed fine last season?

Some of the issues they have come across this season:
i. Hindmarsh playing at prop (bad idea)
ii. MoiMoi playing out wide (bad idea)
iii. too many rookies
iv. lack of go-forward at certain periods (Hindy's prop stints)
v. Poor dummy half service (MK might be one of the best defensive hookers in the game, but his service is slow and awkward both to our forwards, and to our halves)
vi. Regression in the wrestle (defensive pressure is easier to maintain when they don't get quick play the balls all the time - we've been worse in that area than last year)


Some of those issues aren't down to ability, they're simply not being told what to do, or being put in scenarios where they can't do what they need to do.
 

Ratchy

Juniors
Messages
1,507
Why do so many people fail to realize that the forward pack competed fine last season?

Some of the issues they have come across this season:
i. Hindmarsh playing at prop (bad idea)
ii. MoiMoi playing out wide (bad idea)
iii. too many rookies
iv. lack of go-forward at certain periods (Hindy's prop stints)
v. Poor dummy half service (MK might be one of the best defensive hookers in the game, but his service is slow and awkward both to our forwards, and to our halves)
vi. Regression in the wrestle (defensive pressure is easier to maintain when they don't get quick play the balls all the time - we've been worse in that area than last year)


Some of those issues aren't down to ability, they're simply not being told what to do, or being put in scenarios where they can't do what they need to do.

The forward pack wasn't dominating last year, they held their own at best with some of the same issues rearing its ugly head this year were around last year. I can't remember the last time Parramatta won the wrestle around the ruck or the collisions on a consistent basis.

Moimoi only played wide as a desperation move as the current edge forwards at the moment don't break or bend the line. That is a major weakness not only in punching the ball forward but also helping out with variations when shifting the ball wide. At the moment with a Parrmatta shift wide the only player to worry about is Hayne getting the ball behind the line because the defence knows the backrower won't get the short ball as they aren't dangerous ball runners.

As far as Hindy goes the roll he is playing now he has played for years its just father time and his body breaking down have caught up with him.

I'm not defending Kearney as a coach there for decision because honestly he doesn't have much more choice to work with but the fact of the matter remains some of the recruitment decisions have been highly questionable and that isn't criticising the Sandow and W. Tonga moves because they were seen as coups just their performances haven't been up to scratch due to off field issues IMO.

Don't forget at the start of the year Parramatta were around 25/1 to 30/1 to win the comp which is largely based on what the team will be on paper.
 

The Engineers Room

First Grade
Messages
8,945
Why do so many people fail to realize that the forward pack competed fine last season?

Some of the issues they have come across this season:
i. Hindmarsh playing at prop (bad idea)
ii. MoiMoi playing out wide (bad idea)
iii. too many rookies
iv. lack of go-forward at certain periods (Hindy's prop stints)
v. Poor dummy half service (MK might be one of the best defensive hookers in the game, but his service is slow and awkward both to our forwards, and to our halves)
vi. Regression in the wrestle (defensive pressure is easier to maintain when they don't get quick play the balls all the time - we've been worse in that area than last year)


Some of those issues aren't down to ability, they're simply not being told what to do, or being put in scenarios where they can't do what they need to do.


So much of that could be fixed with more runners going up in groups, players without the ball pushing up and decoy runners that look like they could get the ball. Also, forwards that pass at the line. The service is slow because of slow play the balls, the play the balls are slow because the ball runner is getting dominated in the tackles due to the defense getting numbers. They can get the numbers because they attack is one dimensional and forwards are going one out. It all comes back to this.
 

Suitman

Post Whore
Messages
55,855
So much of that could be fixed with more runners going up in groups, players without the ball pushing up and decoy runners that look like they could get the ball. Also, forwards that pass at the line. The service is slow because of slow play the balls, the play the balls are slow because the ball runner is getting dominated in the tackles due to the defense getting numbers. They can get the numbers because they attack is one dimensional and forwards are going one out. It all comes back to this.

That's true, but that has been our problem for years, except for about 12 weeks in '09. That's not solely a Kearney issue, but it baffles me why it hasn't been addressed under his leadership.

Suity
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
90,850
So much of that could be fixed with more runners going up in groups, players without the ball pushing up and decoy runners that look like they could get the ball. Also, forwards that pass at the line. The service is slow because of slow play the balls, the play the balls are slow because the ball runner is getting dominated in the tackles due to the defense getting numbers. They can get the numbers because they attack is one dimensional and forwards are going one out. It all comes back to this.

This doesn't explain why we also fail to dominate on the defensive side of the ball. We either let teams get a roll-on or give away penalties for holding down.

A better explanation is our tight forwards just aren't strong or aggressive enough.
 

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