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Knights Land Gagai

Johns Magic

Referee
Messages
21,412
To be fair, Mann on minimum contract for a 2 year contract extension or Gagai for 3 years at $500k, which is worse?

Gagai is an attempt to address an issue the squad has. Why did we extend Mann?

Supposedly Mann’s current contract ain’t cheap. Who knows about this one.
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
17,117
But you’ve chosen a winger as a baseline comparison for the $? All I’m doing is showing that’s apples and oranges. As shown by Cotric getting paid more by the same club.

Centres get paid much more, and there are plenty of worse centres out there getting paid more than Gagai. The club would have preferred two years but the reasonable asking price justified the third year we had to take a punt on as part of the deal. I think implying we paid up by comparing to JAC and then making the extra year on top sound like even more of a stinker is unfair.
I'm aware JAC is a winger but most people would argue Gagai is a winger who's playing in the centres, in any case I'd argue wingers these days are becoming just as valuable as centres.
If you think 3 years is a good deal can you please point to many 33 year old outside backs that are killing it right now?
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
17,117
Just to clarify where I stand, not a fan of a 3 year deal in terms of length, in terms of $$ it's not massive overs but it's not exactly mates rates either.
I think he'll be worth his value in 2022 but by 2023 and 2024 we'll be waiting in anticipation for that deal to come to an end
 

Zoidberg

First Grade
Messages
5,300
I’m going to wait and see how he goes before judging his signing.
A positive I see from Gags is he has a good carry out from our own end, makes good metres, which we need.
 

Johns Magic

Referee
Messages
21,412
I'm aware JAC is a winger but most people would argue Gagai is a winger who's playing in the centres, in any case I'd argue wingers these days are becoming just as valuable as centres.
If you think 3 years is a good deal can you please point to many 33 year old outside backs that are killing it right now?

I don’t think 3 years is a good deal. But I don’t think a winger’s salary gives the right “context”.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
23,474
The thing is, we can sit here and haggle over 400k vs 500k a year, 2 years vs 3... but who is gonna sit here and argue that we can do without him, or that we're better off without him? It's not some dream, wishful thinking contract, no... but it fills one of our most desperate needs with someone who will provide a lot more than we currently get - and him being a senior that has achieved everything in the game (bar a premiership) is actually a real positive for us with the young outside backs we do have. Yeah, he'll be 33 when it closes, and it might not be the best investment at that point (although that's not a given like aqua is insisting for me, either). There's more upside than down overall. If we were paying him like 650-700k for 3 years then yeah, that's something that would be outrageous and worth getting the pitchforks out for. That would be classic Knights recruiting, and he would have been signed 6 months ago on that contract in years gone by.

This isn't close to the worst recruitment decision we're making at the moment. He came to us with a number, we said no, he came back with a substantially smaller number but asked for 3 years, and we came to the table. I don't think this was anywhere near as negligent as re-signing Mann, or potentially giving Fitz a contract because his dad sponsors the f**king club.

Long story short, I'm happy, or rather content I guess, to have him at that price. Not delighted, but not offended by any stretch. I am actually happy that we've signed someone that will solve a few of our many, many problems on the field.
 

newyboy

Juniors
Messages
263
I hope he was FREE, or he has agreed to pay back all those years he took money for nothing.

The KNIGHTS, stuff me.

We are atill not going to WIN a comp or even be competitive. So why bother paying these guys hundreds of thousands a year. I watched MONEYBALL last night, maybe the Knights can try something different.
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
17,117
The thing is, we can sit here and haggle over 400k vs 500k a year, 2 years vs 3... but who is gonna sit here and argue that we can do without him, or that we're better off without him? It's not some dream, wishful thinking contract, no... but it fills one of our most desperate needs with someone who will provide a lot more than we currently get - and him being a senior that has achieved everything in the game (bar a premiership) is actually a real positive for us with the young outside backs we do have. Yeah, he'll be 33 when it closes, and it might not be the best investment at that point (although that's not a given like aqua is insisting for me, either). There's more upside than down overall. If we were paying him like 650-700k for 3 years then yeah, that's something that would be outrageous and worth getting the pitchforks out for. That would be classic Knights recruiting, and he would have been signed 6 months ago on that contract in years gone by.

This isn't close to the worst recruitment decision we're making at the moment. He came to us with a number, we said no, he came back with a substantially smaller number but asked for 3 years, and we came to the table. I don't think this was anywhere near as negligent as re-signing Mann, or potentially giving Fitz a contract because his dad sponsors the f**king club.

Long story short, I'm happy, or rather content I guess, to have him at that price. Not delighted, but not offended by any stretch. I am actually happy that we've signed someone that will solve a few of our many, many problems on the field.
Again if you can show me just a few examples of 33 year old outside backs who are killing it I'll happily withdraw my reservations. My issue is I feel like Gagai is a bandaid solution which would be fine if it were our only area of need but we have several areas of need and with the way we're going about our retention and recruitment I just don't see how we're going to be able to address all those areas.
 

Jono078

Coach
Messages
17,428
If I am to look at the positive side of signing Gagai it is that he has turned into a more consistent club player and I hope he's able to pass down some lessons to our younger backs. If he's able to do that then it's solid value.

I agree I don't want a 30+ year old back but maybe in our instance it will help with the balance of the team and them having someone to learn from and look up to as he is someone who's achieved it all and worked hard for it.
 

Yosh

First Grade
Messages
9,063
I hope he was FREE, or he has agreed to pay back all those years he took money for nothing.

The KNIGHTS, stuff me.

We are atill not going to WIN a comp or even be competitive. So why bother paying these guys hundreds of thousands a year. I watched MONEYBALL last night, maybe the Knights can try something different.

You know that's a totally different sport right? With different competition rules etc...

If anything, I think Gus Gould needs to be given a senior role at NRL headquarters. His job would be to implement the Panther's youth system across the board in the NRL. That would help upgrade the competition all round. Much more than some stupid knee jerk reaction rule changes that have, once again, gone out the window.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
23,474
Again if you can show me just a few examples of 33 year old outside backs who are killing it I'll happily withdraw my reservations. My issue is I feel like Gagai is a bandaid solution which would be fine if it were our only area of need but we have several areas of need and with the way we're going about our retention and recruitment I just don't see how we're going to be able to address all those areas.
I'm not going to convince you of what you've already made your mind up about it... but because you're pushing me on it, I'll answer what my thought process is - not to argue with you, but to answer the question without copping out of the discussion.

I didn't say I think he'd be killing it by then, that's coming from you. To answer your question of who is still doing it at that age or there abouts - JMoz and Bmoz (til his leg went) were still doing it, I'd love to have Fergo here for a couple of years through to 33, and many others have in the past - both recent and distant. Granted, the bog average and shit ones typically don't, plenty or most rep ones tend to though. Gagai, to this day, has actually gotten better with age... and i mean honestly, I just don't agree with the framing of the discussion you're kinda forcing on it tbh, and that's my main point. I don't think that 33 is a magic number for outside backs that means they've got nothing to offer just because there's not a lot running around in the NRL at this moment. It's purely case by case, much like any other player in any other position. This is what I mean when I said I don't think it's a given.

Now I mean, if you've got an argument that is - I don't think Gagai specifically will offer us enough at 33 because of x, y or z then I think that's a fair enough discussion to have, for sure. I might not agree still, who knows, but I just don't really agree with an arbitrary line in the sand - and I don't think Gagai is going to go so far off a cliff that it'll be a contract that murders us as a club - especially at this price. There's risk involved in any contract, and I mean what you say could happen, I just don't agree with you on the level of risk based on what I perceive to be an arbitrary number is all. It's not like it isn't being done now and hasn't been done countless times in the past - but you're talking like it's some unprecedented contract through to 40 years of age or something.

So yeah, he might not be at his peak in another 3 years, but I'd bet on him to still be holding his first grade spot down - and at a higher quality than we have access to at the moment. I think there's other fringe benefits in that we do need a player like him around the young outside backs, it keeps Mann further away from the starting team... these things have value to us too. Will he be worth the same in 2024 as he is now? Probably not, but I don't think it's going to be so dramatic that it's not worth getting him here. That's my thought process to the moment, and it's cool if you don't agree - I'm not trying to be argumentative - just answering you in good faith. I'd much prefer to have him for 3 years than not have him for 2 - as long as the salary is tolerable - and for me this is tolerable.
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
17,117
I'm not going to convince you of what you've already made your mind up about it... but because you're pushing me on it, I'll answer what my thought process is - not to argue with you, but to answer the question without copping out of the discussion.

I didn't say I think he'd be killing it by then, that's coming from you. To answer your question of who is still doing it at that age or there abouts - JMoz and Bmoz (til his leg went) were still doing it, I'd love to have Fergo here for a couple of years through to 33, and many others have in the past - both recent and distant. Granted, the bog average and shit ones typically don't, plenty or most rep ones tend to though. Gagai, to this day, has actually gotten better with age... and i mean honestly, I just don't agree with the framing of the discussion you're kinda forcing on it tbh, and that's my main point. I don't think that 33 is a magic number for outside backs that means they've got nothing to offer just because there's not a lot running around in the NRL at this moment. It's purely case by case, much like any other player in any other position. This is what I mean when I said I don't think it's a given.

Now I mean, if you've got an argument that is - I don't think Gagai specifically will offer us enough at 33 because of x, y or z then I think that's a fair enough discussion to have, for sure. I might not agree still, who knows, but I just don't really agree with an arbitrary line in the sand - and I don't think Gagai is going to go so far off a cliff that it'll be a contract that murders us as a club - especially at this price. There's risk involved in any contract, and I mean what you say could happen, I just don't agree with you on the level of risk based on what I perceive to be an arbitrary number is all. It's not like it isn't being done now and hasn't been done countless times in the past - but you're talking like it's some unprecedented contract through to 40 years of age or something.

So yeah, he might not be at his peak in another 3 years, but I'd bet on him to still be holding his first grade spot down - and at a higher quality than we have access to at the moment. I think there's other fringe benefits in that we do need a player like him around the young outside backs, it keeps Mann further away from the starting team... these things have value to us too. Will he be worth the same in 2024 as he is now? Probably not, but I don't think it's going to be so dramatic that it's not worth getting him here. That's my thought process to the moment, and it's cool if you don't agree - I'm not trying to be argumentative - just answering you in good faith. I'd much prefer to have him for 3 years than not have him for 2 - as long as the salary is tolerable - and for me this is tolerable.
I think you know me that I'm not someone who is looking to be argumentative and I'm pretty sure over the years we've agreed on the majority of things so please don't take it the wrong way mate. Yes the Morris boys have done well in their 30s but I'd say that's definitely the exception rather than the norm.
I obviously don't rate Gagai anywhere near as highly as you but agree he is an upgrade on what we currently have, my frustration stems from where we're heading or moreover not heading as a club
 

Yosh

First Grade
Messages
9,063
I think it's important to take into account the logic behind the move. You never know if any business decision will be a success or not but you need to increase the odds through grounded logic and reason etc.

- We needed an experienced centre because most of our outside backs are highschoolers basically.

- Gagai is a known winner and has done it at the highest level at both winger and centre. We have very little winning experience in the team.

- Wanted to come and play for the club and city.

- He took a lower deal than he originally wanted and it was well within our wage structure.

- Will he be worth $500k the third and final season he is with us? Odds are probably not. Was it worth offering as the clincher in finalising the deal to get him in. I totally believe it.

It's a totally sound and well thought out deal. Mann on the other hand, I have no idea. Seriously.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
23,474
I think you know me that I'm not someone who is looking to be argumentative and I'm pretty sure over the years we've agreed on the majority of things so please don't take it the wrong way mate. Yes the Morris boys have done well in their 30s but I'd say that's definitely the exception rather than the norm.
I obviously don't rate Gagai anywhere near as highly as you but agree he is an upgrade on what we currently have, my frustration stems from where we're heading or moreover not heading as a club
Yeah I just didn't wanna sound like a dick because I got no beef. All g mate.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
5,782
Fergo isn't a great example of older outside backs going well, he's been dropped to reggies for the last few months and is only 9 months older than Gagai.
And you might have noticed Josh Morris wasn't playing against us either, dropped for Billy Smith.

Time will tell but the odds have to be overwhelming in favour of a 33 year old gagai struggling in 2024
 

Spot On

Coach
Messages
13,259
Fergo is a horrible example.

NRL is a younger blokes game now, especially outside backs.

There aren’t many examples of 30+ wingers setting it alight.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
5,782
NRL is a younger blokes game now, especially outside backs.

I still see people saying props are in their prime in their late 20s. That was true when they debuted at 23 or 24, which just doesn't happen any more. If you're any good you're playing NRL at 20 or getting a real job.
 

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