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Kurt Mann @ 5/8

Belta

Juniors
Messages
1,133
To nullify the predictability and slow reactions of our centres we should mixing it up a little, something that surprising has occurred of late. I was pleasantly surprised to see Field out there. He has what Lafai and Aitken lack, a instinctive passing game, as people have said ala a touch footy player. Interchanged cleverly at the right times, he and Mann (or Duffy) and a bit of ad lib footy could offer new attacking threats.

I know I bang on a lot about field, and I know we risk our defence but it could be integrated at various times.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
18,140
In my opinion?

I simply looked at the offload stats, ranked top to bottom.

No opinions there, simply reading the numbers. As they say, numbers don't lie.. You can't say someone is getting in fewer offloads than are being tallied in the stats, simply because you feel so.


That's like looking at the NRL ladder and saying "That Storm mob don't deserve top spot. I think Canberra have been playing with more heart. Let's swap them round".
Exactly in your opinion read your last paragraph a couple posts up
You clearly quote statistics and then say if you do between this and that you are doing well
Is that not an opinion?
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,971
You clearly quote statistics and then say if you do between this and that you are doing well
Is that not an opinion?
No, it’s reading a number table.

Again I’ll steer you back towards the premiership table.

Are the teams sitting in 5th-8th having a better season than those sitting 9th-16th?
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
18,140
No, it’s reading a number table.

Again I’ll steer you back towards the premiership table.

Are the teams sitting in 5th-8th having a better season than those sitting 9th-16th?
No I'll steer you back to your comment
"puts the weighted average of offloads per game at under a half.. so yes, if you're offloading anywhere between 0.9 and 0.6 per game you're doing well".
You quoted the numbers form the stats and then added the part in bold print.
That is obviously your opinion as it is not quoted in the stats, it is your interpretation of them.
Whereas in my case I do not consider them as doing well I consider them under achieving, especially in Lafai's case as other than his offload ability he brings little else to the table to warrant his selection.
I am happy to say that this is my opinion are you happy to say that the notion that you are doing well at 0.9 to 0,6 per game is just your opinion?
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,971
No I'll steer you back to your comment
"puts the weighted average of offloads per game at under a half.. so yes, if you're offloading anywhere between 0.9 and 0.6 per game you're doing well".
You quoted the numbers form the stats and then added the part in bold print.
That is obviously your opinion as it is not quoted in the stats, it is your interpretation of them.
Whereas in my case I do not consider them as doing well I consider them under achieving, especially in Lafai's case as other than his offload ability he brings little else to the table to warrant his selection.
I am happy to say that this is my opinion are you happy to say that the notion that you are doing well at 0.9 to 0,6 per game is just your opinion?
Would you like me to draw you a bell curve to help you better understand the whole ‘deviation from average’ concept?

It’s not an opinion, it’s statistics.
 

Wittenberg

Juniors
Messages
1,140
One of my greatest frustrations over the last couple of years has been the mis-use of Mann. He came to us from a premiership Melbourne side and Bellamy tried to keep him. He played centre there. We tried to make him a fullback, a winger, a halfback, a lock, a 5/8 and only once or twice, a centre. No wonder he has been inconsistent. Last week we got a glimpse of the quality he can produce. Who knows if it will happen again this week but I feel we have largely wasted his talent. It is noticeable that every time he plays in the game covered by Channel 9 Gould sings his praises and claims he is a natural 5/8. There is a little bit of mail around that Penrith might want to unload Maloney. If that happened would Mann be heading out West?
 

The Damo

Juniors
Messages
1,991
The difference is you see <1 as being a lot, IMO it is not.
Lafai IMO was better when he did actually offload a lot more but that element of his game has evidently been coached out of him.
He is a tortoise and his best attribute was his ability to engage a defender or two and find support.
Compared to before IMO it is almost extinct but if <1 / game is ok and enough for you that is where we differ in what you want from a player.
If you think his contribution of <1 / game is enough to counter his obvious limitations and warrants his selection then I can't agree with you.
Your insistence in quoting stats compared to other players doesn't allow for what other players also bring to the table and if you are happy with him you should be pushing for a further extension of his contract.
My quoting of stats is to refute specific claims. There are opinions that accord with facts and there are opinions that don’t. You said almost nonexistent offloads. That is an opinion that is not backed by the facts. I didn’t say a lot, I said there’s only 5 full time centres who offload more than hm, and he offloads at a significantly higher rate than the average. You can be of the opinion that doesn’t mean a lot, but it’s factual to say he’s in top 6 offloading centres, and equal first for effectiveness when he does.
My opinion is that Lafai is a very good centre, who and I agree with you here, is at his best when offloading more. Last year he was one of the top handful in his position. He’s not that high this year, but he’s still very good, and I think better than Mann would be. I don’t think it’s just his offloads he brings either, he’s got great footwork, he breaks tackles with the best, he attracts defenders and runs good decoy and attack lines, he’s generally an excellent defender and he contributes a lot to yardage and set starts. Some of those statements are opinions that rely on subjective observations, but every one of them that is able to be compared to objective record, accords with the facts. He’s also equal 3rd for try assists if you want an answer to does he set up his winger - also not opinion, but objective fact. When I find out my opinions are contradicted by evidence, I re-evaluate my conclusions, you’re under no obligation to though. Mann would likely be better than Aitken in his current form, and we’d get most value for the team by making that swap when Widdop returns in my opinion.
 

hazzbeen

Bench
Messages
4,617
One of my greatest frustrations over the last couple of years has been the mis-use of Mann. He came to us from a premiership Melbourne side and Bellamy tried to keep him. He played centre there. We tried to make him a fullback, a winger, a halfback, a lock, a 5/8 and only once or twice, a centre. No wonder he has been inconsistent. Last week we got a glimpse of the quality he can produce. Who knows if it will happen again this week but I feel we have largely wasted his talent. It is noticeable that every time he plays in the game covered by Channel 9 Gould sings his praises and claims he is a natural 5/8. There is a little bit of mail around that Penrith might want to unload Maloney. If that happened would Mann be heading out West?
He has been pushed from pillar to post and still performs . Any other player that has been treated like him and I don't care who , would have dropped right off . I would hate to lose him , but would love to see him in a regular position starting every week ...
 

giboz71

First Grade
Messages
9,742
5/8 probably is Mann’s best position but he’ll never be in front of Widdop.

Bellamy used him at centre and that’s where I’d be playing him. But Lafai seems to be the centre of choice and keeps fooling us with one or two good games here and there.

But in reality, Lafai is a very average centre.
 

hewi

Bench
Messages
4,228
5/8 probably is Mann’s best position but he’ll never be in front of Widdop.

Bellamy used him at centre and that’s where I’d be playing him. But Lafai seems to be the centre of choice and keeps fooling us with one or two good games here and there.

But in reality, Lafai is a very average centre.

IMO he is playing better than Widdop has for the past few weeks ,he’s straightened the attackfor one. Personally I’d keep him there until he either has a shocker or Widdop is 110% fully fit, do not under any circumstances bring him or Vaughan back early.
 

Como Connection

First Grade
Messages
6,085
To nullify the predictability and slow reactions of our centres we should mixing it up a little, something that surprising has occurred of late. I was pleasantly surprised to see Field out there. He has what Lafai and Aitken lack, a instinctive passing game, as people have said ala a touch footy player. Interchanged cleverly at the right times, he and Mann (or Duffy) and a bit of ad lib footy could offer new attacking threats.

I know I bang on a lot about field, and I know we risk our defence but it could be integrated at various times.
Dont share your love for him.
CC
 

Como Connection

First Grade
Messages
6,085
5/8 probably is Mann’s best position but he’ll never be in front of Widdop.

Bellamy used him at centre and that’s where I’d be playing him. But Lafai seems to be the centre of choice and keeps fooling us with one or two good games here and there.

But in reality, Lafai is a very average centre.
If you think Lafai is average have a closer look at Aitken.
CC
 

Como Connection

First Grade
Messages
6,085
He has been pushed from pillar to post and still performs . Any other player that has been treated like him and I don't care who , would have dropped right off . I would hate to lose him , but would love to see him in a regular position starting every week ...
Correct disgraceful the way McGregor has treated him and a real big plus that Mann has kept putting in.
CC
 

The Damo

Juniors
Messages
1,991
IMO he is playing better than Widdop has for the past few weeks ,he’s straightened the attackfor one. Personally I’d keep him there until he either has a shocker or Widdop is 110% fully fit, do not under any circumstances bring him or Vaughan back early.
Totally agree, if Mann continues that good form we’d be much better off giving Widdop an extra week off to rehab. Same with Vaughan, while Luc is playing so well in the edge and Frizz in the middle then we’re better served making sure he’s right to go.
 

Crush

Coach
Messages
11,499
My quoting of stats is to refute specific claims. There are opinions that accord with facts and there are opinions that don’t. You said almost nonexistent offloads. That is an opinion that is not backed by the facts. I didn’t say a lot, I said there’s only 5 full time centres who offload more than hm, and he offloads at a significantly higher rate than the average. You can be of the opinion that doesn’t mean a lot, but it’s factual to say he’s in top 6 offloading centres, and equal first for effectiveness when he does.
My opinion is that Lafai is a very good centre, who and I agree with you here, is at his best when offloading more. Last year he was one of the top handful in his position. He’s not that high this year, but he’s still very good, and I think better than Mann would be. I don’t think it’s just his offloads he brings either, he’s got great footwork, he breaks tackles with the best, he attracts defenders and runs good decoy and attack lines, he’s generally an excellent defender and he contributes a lot to yardage and set starts. Some of those statements are opinions that rely on subjective observations, but every one of them that is able to be compared to objective record, accords with the facts. He’s also equal 3rd for try assists if you want an answer to does he set up his winger - also not opinion, but objective fact. When I find out my opinions are contradicted by evidence, I re-evaluate my conclusions, you’re under no obligation to though. Mann would likely be better than Aitken in his current form, and we’d get most value for the team by making that swap when Widdop returns in my opinion.
Is there a stat which records centres getting dragged into touch in there own 20 on the 1st tackle which then leads to an immediate try? Because I seem to recall that happening to Lafai on more than a few occasions. Or maybe I have created that in my head, dunno......
 

Saint_JimmyG

First Grade
Messages
5,067
One of my greatest frustrations over the last couple of years has been the mis-use of Mann. He came to us from a premiership Melbourne side and Bellamy tried to keep him. He played centre there. We tried to make him a fullback, a winger, a halfback, a lock, a 5/8 and only once or twice, a centre. No wonder he has been inconsistent. Last week we got a glimpse of the quality he can produce. Who knows if it will happen again this week but I feel we have largely wasted his talent. It is noticeable that every time he plays in the game covered by Channel 9 Gould sings his praises and claims he is a natural 5/8. There is a little bit of mail around that Penrith might want to unload Maloney. If that happened would Mann be heading out West?

As a segue. Bellamy also wanted to retain Widdop but that’s another point altogether,

You’re right though; Mann’s time at SGI has been criminally mismanaged by McGregor. For one thing, I can’t fathom why he hasn’t been given another opportunity at fullback since his disastrous game against Cronulla some time back.

Even Darren Lockyer had the occasional shocker during his nascent fullback days at the Broncos. The difference (of course) is that his coach showed faith and courage in the confidence that he would one day excel.

History shows Bennett was right in his decision making.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
16,022
Widdop has shockers too, Hunt just had one. Happens

Widdop
Good short kicking game
Average long kicking game
Good goal kicker
Good field goal kicker
Good passing game
Will run direct when the forwards are dominating
Has speed
Good in defence
Can also play fullback


Hunt
Good short kicking game
Good long kicking game

Poor goal kicker
Average field goal kicker
Good passing game
Will run direct when the forwards are dominating
Has speed
Poor in defence
Can also play hooker


Mann
Average short kicking game
Poor long kicking game
Poor goal kicker
Poor field goal kicker
Good passing game
Will run direct most of the time
Has speed
Good in defence
Can also play centre and wing on both sides of the field

So considering that kicking in general play is a key skill in the halves, in my opinion the only scenario in which Mann should retain the five-eighth position on Widdops return is if Widdop moved to fullback and took most of the long range kicks, goal kicks and field goal kicks. Also occasionally took short range kicks in general play.

Mann to halfback with Hunt to hooker would not improve things as in our team the hooker is expected to put in a high number of effect tackles down the middle third. Probably the hardest toll on a players body. Short stints at dummy half to break up the oppositions defence may be valuable however, that play can be done occasionally while playing at halfback.

 
Last edited:
Messages
2,505
Widdop
Good short kicking game
Average long kicking game
Good goal kicker
Good field goal kicker
Good passing game
Will run direct when the forwards are dominating
Has speed
Good in defence
Can also play fullback


Hunt
Good short kicking game
Good long kicking game

Poor goal kicker
Average field goal kicker
Good passing game
Will run direct when the forwards are dominating
Has speed
Poor in defence
Can also play hooker


Mann
Average short kicking game
Poor long kicking game
Poor goal kicker
Poor field goal kicker
Good passing game
Will run direct most of the time
Has speed
Good in defence
Can also play centre and wing on both sides of the field

So considering that kicking in general play is a key skill in the halves, in my opinion the only scenario in which Mann should retain the five-eighth position on Widdops return is if Widdop moved to fullback and took most of the long range kicks, goal kicks and field goal kicks. Also occasionally took short range kicks in general play.

Mann to halfback with Hunt to hooker would not improve things as in our team the hooker is expected to put in a high number of effect tackles down the middle third. Probably the hardest toll on a players body. Short stints at dummy half to break up the oppositions defence may be valuable however, that play can be done occasionally while playing at halfback.


I think its unfair to say Mann has a poor kicking game. He hasn't had enough games where he has had to kick to show what he can do.

Widdops short kicking game is woeful. Hunt could have a good kicking game but too often takes the wrong option.
 

j0nesy

Bench
Messages
3,747
In your opinion but not in mine.
I for one would like to see our centres being able to put our wingers into the clear.
If I have missed this activity them please refer me to the highlights real that shows that.
Mann has 1 game at 5/8 (hopefully knowing he will be there for several weeks) and shows how effective a good passing game can be for a winger to be able to be highly effective.
You may be happy with weighted averages and all the rest of it but for me a centre of tortoise speed like Lafai should have a lot of other things he can do to justify his position in the side and < 1 offload doesn't cut the mustard for me.
I have always held the view Mann would be a far better option at LC than Lafai and I still maintain that position.
I have always thought Lafai to be bog average with the odd good game in him and I have seen nothing to change my mind on that.
You can throw all the statistics you like at me trying to show how Lafai compares to this player or that player and to me it just highlights that you are happy with a very ordinary / pedestrian centre.
He remains in the position only because of the f**kwhit we have coaching us.

He’s not. First game I watched him at centre he was schooled by Morris, missing 6 tackles in half a game. He followed that up with a number of missed tackles in the following games. He’s too small and doesn’t have a decent enough tackling technique to be a permanent centre. Best positions are full back and reserve 5/8.
 

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