Kurt Mann @ 5/8

[Overseas dragon]

I’m running faster this year and have scored more tries and provided more try assists than the past two seasons. I’m happy to take his spot.

Not sure my overall ability is up to NRL standard compared to those playing it at the moment, but I’ve smashed my own KPIs so I’ve earned the call up.

sounds like you have been handling the merchandise too much .........go easy

 

[muzby]

sounds like you have been handling the merchandise too much .........go easy

 

[True_Believer]

It's probably worth mentioning that Lafai made the conscious decision to make less offloads at the start of the season.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/02/12/offload-king-lafai-to-be-more-selective-in-2018/

It's noticeable that he's topped trying that little flick pass of his - I wonder if he's just being too conservative now.

this is a pretty good article. It indicates that although all of those stats in a single year put him near the top for each of them, the errors countered that.

It's obvious he's trying to find a balance or at least try to be a better judge of timing. Some of those numbers last year are incredible for a centre. Just remember too that Nighty was on the other end of many of those assists.

 

[Old Timer]

I’m running faster this year and have scored more tries and provided more try assists than the past two seasons. I’m happy to take his spot.

Not sure my overall ability is up to NRL standard compared to those playing it at the moment, but I’ve smashed my own KPIs so I’ve earned the call up.

Not sure what you are driving at with the above.
Sometimes me thinks you personally miss the obvious to draw people into arguments so you can show how clever you think you are.
When Lafai was signed many in here protested and said he was a dud (myself included) many said he had a great year in 2015 and that is how he should be judged even to the point where some confided that Lafai's effort in the 2015 SF (Mc Fookknuckle highlight to date) was good enough on its own.
I merely contend that he has never re produced that form and in some cases his form / some stats this year even compared to last year has declined.
I maintain that on my observations Mann would offer more at LC than Lafai and I stick to my belief.
Compare Lafai to other centres all you like and raise all the stats you like but unless Mann plays the position no one will ever know.
So the obvious conclusion then is what evidence do I have to warrant such a change and I simply offer comparing Lafai now to what he was in 2015 and what he was supposed to deliver is chalk & cheese.
If he doesn't deliver on what he was supposed to give someone else a crack at the position but obviously Mc Fookknuckle is blinded by stats and cannot see any advantage in trying anything.
By the way can you do a stat on clubs that drop players to reggies and see how we compare to them?

 

[muzby]

Not sure what you are driving at with the above.
Sometimes me thinks you personally miss the obvious to draw people into arguments so you can show how clever you think you are.
When Lafai was signed many in here protested and said he was a dud (myself included) many said he had a great year in 2015 and that is how he should be judged even to the point where some confided that Lafai's effort in the 2015 SF (Mc Fookknuckle highlight to date) was good enough on its own.
I merely contend that he has never re produced that form and in some cases his form / some stats this year even compared to last year has declined.
I maintain that on my observations Mann would offer more at LC than Lafai and I stick to my belief.
Compare Lafai to other centres all you like and raise all the stats you like but unless Mann plays the position no one will ever know.
So the obvious conclusion then is what evidence do I have to warrant such a change and I simply offer comparing Lafai now to what he was in 2015 and what he was supposed to deliver is chalk & cheese.
If he doesn't deliver on what he was supposed to give someone else a crack at the position but obviously Mc Fookknuckle is blinded by stats and cannot see any advantage in trying anything.
By the way can you do a stat on clubs that drop players to reggies and see how we compare to them?

I’m trying a different angle with you as you don’t seem to get the whole concept of using a benchmark to measure performance.

And for the Mann v Lafai peice, I’d stick with Lafai. He’s better in defence (both have made similar tackles, Mann’s missed more) and makes more line breaks per run than Mann.

He’s offloading at twice the rate per carry that Mann is too.


On a side note, whilst looking at the figures I can kind of get why the coach is sticking with aitken. He’s made the most runs and 3rd most running metres in the team. He’s a metre eater. It’s his defence that needs more work - 3rd most missed tackles (misses 1 in every 10). Fix his defence and shift him to 2nd row, I say..

Our spine is terrible for missed tackles, Hunt, Whiddop & Dufty miss 1 in every 5.

Ah Moo is our most consistent.. only misses 1 in 50.

 

[Old Timer]

I’m trying a different angle with you as you don’t seem to get the whole concept of using a benchmark to measure performance.

And for the Mann v Lafai peice, I’d stick with Lafai. He’s better in defence (both have made similar tackles, Mann’s missed more) and makes more line breaks per run than Mann.

He’s offloading at twice the rate per carry that Mann is too.


On a side note, whilst looking at the figures I can kind of get why the coach is sticking with aitken. He’s made the most runs and 3rd most running metres in the team. He’s a metre eater. It’s his defence that needs more work - 3rd most missed tackles (misses 1 in every 10). Fix his defence and shift him to 2nd row, I say..

Our spine is terrible for missed tackles, Hunt, Whiddop & Dufty miss 1 in every 5.

Ah Moo is our most consistent.. only misses 1 in 50.

Oh I do fully understand the concept of benchmarking make no mistake about that.
In your analysis do you allow for coaches instructions, style of play, what position on the field do different aspect of play occur etc etc as all the have some relative bearing on the outcome of the stats taken?
For fairness have you separated Mann's stats out for the various positions he has played as I would think the only stats that would give any reasonable & fair compression are those that relate to him playing centre?
Have you allowed for the situation of the game when Mann has come on as a replacement as no doubt some of those situations will dictate the level of activity in passing, offloading, etc etc however Lafai gets the benefit of statistics across a full 80 minutes and also the benefit of playing in a side that enjoyed a lot of early season success.
Do you in anyway believe that Mann's stats could be affected by any of the above?
In many ways for me I get a far better understanding of a players ability and worth by watching the game rather than pouring over statistics that can be affected due to many variables.
Do NRL statistics provide some good information yes they do but they must be seen for what they are and that is a compilation of data that in itself gives little or no allowance for the many variables in a game of NRL.

 

[ALSGI]

If your experiment needs a statistician, you need a better experiment.
Ernest Rutherford

This is why I skip any posts with stats.

 

[muzby]

In your analysis do you allow for coaches instructions, style of play, what position on the field do different aspect of play occur etc etc as all the have some relative bearing on the outcome of the stats taken?
For fairness have you separated Mann's stats out for the various positions he has played as I would think the only stats that would give any reasonable & fair compression are those that relate to him playing centre?
Have you allowed for the situation of the game when Mann has come on as a replacement as no doubt some of those situations will dictate the level of activity in passing, offloading, etc etc however Lafai gets the benefit of statistics across a full 80 minutes and also the benefit of playing in a side that enjoyed a lot of early season success.

Yes, hence why I refer to things such as offloads per carry as opposed to offloads per game.

If referred to tackles are total tackles, however with Mann playing more time in the middle, you'd expect his tackle efficiency to be higher due to the higher percentage of multiple defenders per tackle (majority of our forwards have single digit percentage misses, however Mann is double digit) so you'll find his efficiency out wide would be even worse where it becomes more one on one...

In many ways for me I get a far better understanding of a players ability and worth by watching the game rather than pouring over statistics that can be affected due to many variables.

Ah, the vibe thing.. Out of curiosity, how do you measure "Coaches Instructions" when watching on TV?

Do NRL statistics provide some good information yes they do but they must be seen for what they are and that is a compilation of data that in itself gives little or no allowance for the many variables in a game of NRL.

But all these clubs are spending a heap of $$ on GPS trackers, computers, analytics departments etc..

What a waste!

 

[Old Timer]

Yes, hence why I refer to things such as offloads per carry as opposed to offloads per game.

If referred to tackles are total tackles, however with Mann playing more time in the middle, you'd expect his tackle efficiency to be higher due to the higher percentage of multiple defenders per tackle (majority of our forwards have single digit percentage misses, however Mann is double digit) so you'll find his efficiency out wide would be even worse where it becomes more one on one...

Pure speculation on your part.
The only way to evaluate that is for them to trade places then you will have a full comparison.

Ah, the vibe thing.. Out of curiosity, how do you measure "Coaches Instructions" when watching on TV?

I didn't say you can measure it thus why I question the relevancy of some stats because they can't measure it either but there is no doubt that at certain parts of a game a message goes out as to what the coach now wants.
If Mann is on for 15 minutes at tight time and the message is "don't pass" then obviously his stats can be affected whereas if he was on at a stage when we are running riot it could well be a different message.

But all these clubs are spending a heap of $$ on GPS trackers, computers, analytics departments etc..

What a waste!

So you are telling me that all stats are altered to allow for all variables including but not limited to charge downs, intercepts, failing to find touch, rebound of uprights, refereeing & bunker errors?

 

[muzby]

Pure speculation on your part.

I’d call them hard numbers recorded by an impartial professional, but hey..

So you are telling me that all stats are altered to allow for all variables including but not limited to charge downs, intercepts, failing to find touch, rebound of uprights, refereeing & bunker errors?

Yes actually..

Intercepts are recorded, they are kept under defensive stats. If you throw an intercept it also gets recorded as a sub set of handling errors.

Charge downs are also captured as kicks defused, a subset of defence.

Failing to find touch off a penalty is captured as a generic error.

They also capture things such as 1:1 strips, cross field kicks, kicked dead.. all things that can have an impact on a game..

Unfortunately off the uprights isn’t captured, and let’s be frank it’s not a play that teams actively go for..

 

[Old Timer]

I’d call them hard numbers recorded by an impartial professional, but hey..

Not denying they are hard numbers but when you have a small man doing a big mans job at the behest of a dick head coach don't you think that the numbers might get tainted a little?
If Lafai had to defend in the middle 3rd maybe his numbers might get tainted as well.
If you are trying to compare Lafai and Mann via statistics then stop being tricky and just use the data that is correctly matched namely Mann playing LC.
Your justification of Lafai V Mann is based on stats that do not correctly evaluate what happens when both have played in exactly the same position.

 

[The Damo]

Not denying they are hard numbers but when you have a small man doing a big mans job at the behest of a dick head coach don't you think that the numbers might get tainted a little?
If Lafai had to defend in the middle 3rd maybe his numbers might get tainted as well.
If you are trying to compare Lafai and Mann via statistics then stop being tricky and just use the data that is correctly matched namely Mann playing LC.
Your justification of Lafai V Mann is based on stats that do not correctly evaluate what happens when both have played in exactly the same position.

I get what you’re saying OT - and it is hard as Mann hasn’t played many games at LC for us. From memory he didn’t set the world on fire, and once got hooked for Milne to come on due to missing half a dozen tackles in one half. That’s not fair to him though as it’s just one game, and all players have those.
Another place to look is his time at storm. This is several years ago and is hardly definitive but in 18 games playing 80 mins at LC he scored 4 tries and less than 4 try assists. It’s hard to find good stats going back then. Again I don’t think that’s definitive at all, but it certainly doesn’t paint a picture of a top rung attacking centre then.
You’re right there’s plenty of ways to assess players performance and there’s tons of variables that can effect how they perform. Can’t speak for Muzby but I do watch the games and players and think about all the things you mentioned. I also look at stats, as when interpreted with some of these things in mind they do help immensely in coming to a more comprehensive conclusion. And if I or you or anyone says they do/don’t rate a player on a particular part of their performance that is measurable like offloads, and their description of that particular part is contradicted by the stats then it’s worth challenging and discussing based on that.

 

[muzby]

Your justification of Lafai V Mann is based on stats that do not correctly evaluate what happens when both have played in exactly the same position.

But the vibe does. Got it.

 

[watatank]

Mate he hasn't had a chance to show anyone anything because he has been shoved around . Covering now for Widdop , and is left there for a few games without being moved around will see interest from clubs . What I cant understand is if he does make a mistake I bet Mary will shaft him . Everyone in the team make mistakes week in and week out but the seem to keep their positions .... Hope the Mann has blinders over the next few games ......

If that's all true it begs the question...why didn't he leave?

 

[Como Connection]

Would all the Mann haters just F off.
Never been given a chance to be a regular starter in three years.
All credit to him for playing well every time he is selected in many positions.
He must leave the club if dopey is still in charge.
Hope to bump into dopey one day and discuss this subject.
CC

 

[My man Gasnier]

In defence of Mann not having a permanent position or a starting spot, does anyone see it as a positive thing that he is quickly turning in to one of the most, if not the most, versatile player in the game. Utility players are a dying breed but are worth their weight in gold. Completely justifies him starting on the bench.

 

[Warabrook saint]

It's probably worth mentioning that Lafai made the conscious decision to make less offloads at the start of the season.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/02/12/offload-king-lafai-to-be-more-selective-in-2018/

It's noticeable that he's topped trying that little flick pass of his - I wonder if he's just being too conservative now.

Lafai =lackadaisical until it's time to talk money

 

[Como Connection]

In defence of Mann not having a permanent position or a starting spot, does anyone see it as a positive thing that he is quickly in to one of the most, if not the most, versatile player in the game. Utility players are a dying breed but are worth their weight in gold. Completely justifies him starting on the bench.

Bull shit
CC

 

[My man Gasnier]

Bull shit
CC

Care to elaborate, champ?

 

[nontime111]

WIDDOP
HERBERT
LOMAX
LAFAI
NENE
MANN
HUNT