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Mascord refused to watch ANZAC test

deluded pom?

Coach
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10,897
Personally, I don't like the game even though my old man is a West Australian who loves it, but the AFL are bloody well run and take a long term view and that's why they have a presence. The NRL are starting to catch on and are doing the same sort of thing, and whilst "uncle Rupert" drove development in Melbourne, even before that expansion into Auckland was more coherent than anything the RFL did with London.

Again, the difference is the post Super League War NRL hasn't suffered a litany of failures in new markets like the RFL have had. I mean FFS, even your fellow countrymen on this board say the game has no profile in your country and that for 95% of Poms don't even know there's 2 types of Rugby.

Seriously, I'm not saying the NRL are perfect, but they've got their shit together a f**k-tonne better than you lot.

As I said previously I'm not defending the RFL but all the game's problems shouldn't be laid at their door as the guy in the response article claims. I think we're of similar thought but maybe we don't know each other's country well enough to make informed judgement.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
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2,257
As I said previously I'm not defending the RFL but all the game's problems shouldn't be laid at their door as the guy in the response article claims. I think we're of similar thought but maybe we don't know each other's country well enough to make informed judgement.

Maybe. To be honest it kinda bums me out to read comments like most English people don't even know what Rugby League is... You guys are obviously at the coalface, but it's just kinda sad and frustrating to think that, because one thing that guy is right about is that if League had been more successful in England and the last 50 years were more like the first 50 years in terms of how hard it was for us to beat you, then internationals against England would be a WAY bigger deal than Origin for Australians. Of that I am certain.
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
The one that just cut its competition by 2 teams and whose best teams couldn't get within 30 points of their NRL counterparts at the most recent extended WCC.

Seriously mate, Rugby League is a f**king joke in England. Nobody gives a shit about it over there and it shows.

By cutting the league its actually forced more teams in the league below to go fulltime..theres 5-6 full time teams outside super league..2 years ago there was none...

Obviously a bad thing lol
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
By cutting the league its actually forced more teams in the league below to go fulltime..theres 5-6 full time teams outside super league..2 years ago there was none...

Obviously a bad thing lol

That's definitely a good side effect, but let's not kid ourselves, they made the cut to the Super League because the competition just wasn't competitive enough outside the top 4 to justify the number of sides. If the Super League were like the NRL and had had 11 different premiers in their last 16 years, then I doubt they'd have reduced the size of the comp.
 

ParraEelsNRL

Referee
Messages
27,716
Maybe. To be honest it kinda bums me out to read comments like most English people don't even know what Rugby League is... You guys are obviously at the coalface, but it's just kinda sad and frustrating to think that, because one thing that guy is right about is that if League had been more successful in England and the last 50 years were more like the first 50 years in terms of how hard it was for us to beat you, then internationals against England would be a WAY bigger deal than Origin for Australians. Of that I am certain.

I think that's rubbish as the game was shown for years on the bbc every week plus sky sports these days, if you put a pom on who wants to be a millionaire, they'd probably pick RL if they had too.
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
There might be 11different winners..but how many different minor premiers you had?? The same teams are always at the top...manly,melbourne,roosters,broncos...when it comes to finals...its no different to our challenge cup
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
Just had a look...the last 10 years theres been 4 different minor premiers..roosters,bulldogs,st george & melbourne...and melbourne had all but one rubbed out...

Like i said though...finals footy is a toss up...its the aussie version of our challenge cup...get on a roll and anyone could win it...thats why theres 11 different winners!
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
There might be 11different winners..but how many different minor premiers you had?? The same teams are always at the top...manly,melbourne,roosters,broncos...when it comes to finals...its no different to our challenge cup

Actually mate, I think you'll find that if you go by Minor Premiers there have been 10 in the same period...
 

strong_latte

Juniors
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1,665
Just had a look...the last 10 years theres been 4 different minor premiers..roosters,bulldogs,st george & melbourne...and melbourne had all but one rubbed out...

Like i said though...finals footy is a toss up...its the aussie version of our challenge cup...get on a roll and anyone could win it...thats why theres 11 different winners!

It's not like your challenge cup though because you still need to be good enough across the course of a season to get a shot at it and Australian sport just has never been organized with British style "League only" systems; every code of football we play employs a finals system because it's just in our mindset; it's not good enough just to have sustained success, you need to do it under pressure in a big game as well.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
Just had a look...the last 10 years theres been 4 different minor premiers..roosters,bulldogs,st george & melbourne...and melbourne had all but one rubbed out...

Like i said though...finals footy is a toss up...its the aussie version of our challenge cup...get on a roll and anyone could win it...thats why theres 11 different winners!

Looking it at actually there's been 9 if you look at the modern era of the NRL in its entirety: Brisbane, Cronulla, Parra, Warriors, Panthers, Roosters, Saints, Dogs, Melbourne.

Interestingly Manly haven't won a single one.

It's not like your challenge cup though because you still need to be good enough across the course of a season to get a shot at it and Australian sport just has never been organized with British style "League only" systems; every code of football we play employs a finals system because it's just in our mindset; it's not good enough just to have sustained success, you need to do it under pressure in a big game as well.

This is true. The whole "league winners" thing is a very british perspective. It's just not as big a deal here - it's all about winning the big show. The Minor Premiership is really just about positioning yourself as well as possible to win the real thing.
 

strong_latte

Juniors
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1,665
It's actually interesting looking at that minor premiership list because within it there are 3 teams that didn't win premierships: the Eels, Sharks and the Warriors. So in a sense the competition has provided some level of success to 14 of its 16 teams since its inception. That's pretty good when you think about it.
 

roughyedspud

Coach
Messages
12,181
It's not like your challenge cup though because you still need to be good enough across the course of a season to get a shot at it and Australian sport just has never been organized with British style "League only" systems; every code of football we play employs a finals system because it's just in our mindset; it's not good enough just to have sustained success, you need to do it under pressure in a big game as well.

Half the teams in the league get a shot! A team finishing 8th,with a 50/50 record gets a shot!....they get on a roll,hit form,win 4 on the bounce they win the thing!
 

strong_latte

Juniors
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1,665
Half the teams in the league get a shot! A team finishing 8th,with a 50/50 record gets a shot!....they get on a roll,hit form,win 4 on the bounce they win the thing!

Still not really sure what your point is... The NRL finals system still provides an advantage to teams that finish in the top 4 by either allowing the winners a week off or giving the losers of the first week another chance. Sure the bottom 4 are in with a shot, but you rarely see teams outside the top 4 win it, so it's not the same as your challenge cup because it is designed to provide an incentive to win as high on the ladder as possible.

As I said though, finals are built into the fabric of Australian sport and even if you just on the whole "minor premiers is a better indicator of ability" argument (which I disagree with), as roost points out there have still been 9 minor premiers since the current format of the NRL back in '98 anyway.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
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2,257
I'm a bit confused here as I thought the Super League had used a finals system for the last 20 odd years as well. How is it that there's a Super League "Grand Final" if there isn't a finals series?
 

Evil Homer

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7,178
This to me is just insane... I get that the NFL is an absolute monster that outstrips all the big Euro soccer tournaments, but it's ultimately still a very very American game that has no history in England, so it just seems very odd to me that Londoners would embrace something the Americans - a group that plenty of English think are just culturally incompatible with them from what I can tell - have sought to impose on them over a game people living in the north of their own country have made.

Again, I look at it a bit like AFL in Sydney or NRL in Melbourne - both cities were once completely foreign territory for both codes, and few people living in Sydney in the 80s would have had any clue about Australian Football, let alone any interest in supporting it. Likewise for Rugby League in Melbourne before the storm.
It's not just Londoners, the Wembley NFL matches sell out because they are pushed as a major event, they attract the latent American football support from all over the country. You're forgetting that England is a very small place and it's pretty easy for anyone in the country to get to London within a few hours. To be honest I'd say that American football probably has a bigger fanbase in the UK than RL does, because the general public actually know what American football is and because it's portrayed as important. RL is not portrayed as important, it's portrayed to most of the country as a weird little sport that nobody really cares about and is only played in miserable little Northern towns. Nobody gets the chance to see how good the product actually is, and a lot of people are automatically biased against it and don't expect it to be any good because of the way it is portrayed. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be a fan or even know anything about the sport if I wasn't already a fan, and it's only because I know how good the product is that I am a fan today. On the other hand I do know about the NFL, I've heard of the Dallas Cowboys and the Denver Broncos, I've heard of Tom Brady, I've heard of quarterbacks and touchdowns, I know about the Superbowl and the halftime show etc. It's infinitely more accessible than RL is to the vast majority of the country.

I get that this is completely alien for Australians and you have to understand the cultural demographics of England to really understand it properly, but it's not a situation that is going to change easily, if at all.
I suppose the obvious question is how it ever got this bad? How can League have deteriorated to the point over there that you won't hear about it an hour out of a League stronghold?
It hasn't deteriorated so much as it hasn't grown with the world. Half the problem is that most of the places RL is popular have been pretty miserable and deprived towns, especially in the 1970s and 80s which is when other sports really started to expand and left RL behind. I don't know what our administrators were doing at that time, I wasn't around then, but they f**king failed whatever it was. As for people outside the heartlands not knowing about the sport, they have never known about it because it just doesn't register with them, because there is pretty much a media blackout of RL. It doesn't even register in the public psyche. If you don't know it exists then you won't find out about it unless you stumble across it by accident. That's just the way it is.
Reading the article, that seemed to be the criticism. Is it true it was originally set up by Fulham soccer, then run by Brisbane and then went to Union's Harlequins? Because if that's the case it's no wonder it failed so badly and you really have to wonder what the f**k the RFL were doing that they weren't more involved.
The RFL did everything they could short of literally stepping in and running the club. They bent the rules for them and bailed them out time and time again, after a while there's nothing more they could do. You shouldn't judge anything based on London Broncos, they were just an absolute f**king basket case.

One thing the RFL did do in the past 10 years was invest heavily in youth development structures in London, which means there are now a large number of London-born players in Super League. In fact I would guess there are a lot more professional RL players from London than there are from Victoria even though the Storm are clearly light years ahead of London Broncos as an organization.
I'm on record here as saying I don't like rep round because it just makes no sense where it is, but I do like what it does for the Islanders all the same. Given the increasing involvement the NRL is having with the PI countries though, I'd be willing to bet they have something planned to replace it. Heck, they've already announced that Fiji v Samoa test in Samoa for October this year, so it's not like they're abandoning them.
Again, you just don't get it. It's not a case of either/or, playing mid-season internationals doesn't mean you can't play them at the end of the season, it doesn't affect that at all. I would've expected all of the Pacific nations to be playing tests at the end of every year regardless of the rep round existing or not, cancelling it so that they can do something they should've been doing all along is just stupid and regressive. As I said earlier, European soccer leagues have 3 or 4 coordinated international breaks during their season.

Hell, this weekend a Super League team released Frank Pritchard and Sika Manu to fly around the world and play in the Pacific tests even though it meant them missing an important Challenge Cup fixture, because they value the international game. NRL clubs couldn't release players who live in the vicinity even though they had a week off to do it. English RL clearly is far from perfect but if the NRL had the English attitude to international expansion and developing the sport instead of the insular mentality they have now then everyone would be better off.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
Messages
2,257
It's not just Londoners, the Wembley NFL matches sell out because they are pushed as a major event, they attract the latent American football support from all over the country. You're forgetting that England is a very small place and it's pretty easy for anyone in the country to get to London within a few hours. To be honest I'd say that American football probably has a bigger fanbase in the UK than RL does, because the general public actually know what American football is and because it's portrayed as important. RL is not portrayed as important, it's portrayed to most of the country as a weird little sport that nobody really cares about and is only played in miserable little Northern towns.

I get that this is completely alien for Australians and you have to understand the cultural demographics of England to really understand it properly, but it's not a situation that is going to change easily, if at all.

I guess what's alien for us me in particular the general lack of progress in the game... again, I can think of analogous perception, demographic and cultural issues with games like AFL and soccer in Sydney (soccer across the country was thought of as a girls game played by cowards for close to 100 years FFS).

It hasn't deteriorated so much as it hasn't grown with the world. Half the problem is that most of the places RL is popular have been pretty miserable and deprived towns, especially in the 1970s and 80s which is when other sports really started to expand and left RL behind. I don't know what our administrators were doing at that time, I wasn't around then, but they f**king failed whatever it was. As for people outside the heartlands not knowing about the sport, they have never known about it because it just doesn't register with them, because there is pretty much a media blackout of RL. It doesn't even register in the public psyche. If you don't know it exists then you won't find out about it unless you stumble across it by accident. That's just the way it is.

I've definitely come across evidence of this out here. In fact I've yet to meet a single Englishman out here who actually has anything remotely positive to say about Rugby League in England. Most are all really surprised by how massive the game is in Sydney and have trouble understanding how the NRL and AFL are so massive whilst your big sport is so small here.


The RFL did everything they could short of literally stepping in and running the club. They bent the rules for them and bailed them out time and time again, after a while there's nothing more they could do. You shouldn't judge anything based on London Broncos, they were just an absolute f**king basket case.

One thing the RFL did do in the past 10 years was invest heavily in youth development structures in London, which means there are now a large number of London-born players in Super League. In fact I would guess there are a lot more professional RL players from London than there are from Victoria even though the Storm are clearly light years ahead of London Broncos as an organization.

I've heard this before actually. It's certainly a good sign they've done a bit with development, and that should help raise awareness in the public consciousness, but maybe it's time the RFL decided to take the bull by the horns when it comes to London and start planning for a more stable team there by taking big event games down there to promote the game. Do what the NRL is doing with markets like Perth and have a big Super League clash or a test match there a year for a decade and then slowly seek expressions of interest for a new side. But don't make it an all of London side - target one specific area, as from what I can tell London is a pretty fractured place identity wise.

Again, you just don't get it. It's not a case of either/or, playing mid-season internationals doesn't mean you can't play them at the end of the season, it doesn't affect that at all. I would've expected all of the Pacific nations to be playing tests at the end of every year regardless of the rep round existing or not, cancelling it so that they can do something they should've been doing all along is just stupid and regressive. As I said earlier, European soccer leagues have 3 or 4 coordinated international breaks during their season.

NRL clubs couldn't release players who live in the vicinity even though they had a week off to do it. English RL clearly is far from perfect but if the NRL had the English attitude to international expansion and developing the sport instead of the insular mentality they have now then everyone would be better off.

To be fair, plenty of NRL clubs DID release players for the PI matches... in fact most of them did. There was just a couple examples of stubborn ones like Bennett that got all the press, and even with him there was the suggestion that the ban on Milford playing was more down to Milford himself having a quiet word with Bennett and asking him to do it on his behalf.

I'd also add that with the NRL's adding PNG and Fiji to the lower grade competitions, whilst also running an ever increasing number of Rugby League clinics and supporting local competitions, it's a bit unfair to accuse them of having done nothing.

As for the mid season stuff, with the transition of Origin to now having at least one dedicated weekend, it paves the way for these PI matches to be played then, and so I suspect we may all be jumping the gun here as everyone acknowledges these games are a success and I don't see the ARLC not having a place for them.
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
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7,178
I guess what's alien for us me in particular the general lack of progress in the game... again, I can think of analogous perception, demographic and cultural issues with games like AFL and soccer in Sydney (soccer across the country was thought of as a girls game played by cowards for close to 100 years FFS).
AFL is a sport with an established presence in a major city and population center. Soccer is a global powerhouse with trillions of dollars behind it. RL in England is a sport that recently scrapped its London development officers because they couldn't afford to pay them any more. The only RL body in the world with any type of money or power is the NRL, and they have shown time and time again that they aren't going to invest in the international game outside of their own ventures which are solely designed to boost the NRL (which is understandable BTW).

The situation in England is nothing like it is in Australia and it's nothing to do with the sport itself, it's a cultural thing. There has always been a massive cultural divide in England and sadly the money, power and influence is on the side where RL is not. In fact that's the main reason the sport came into existence in the first place if you read up on your history. It's a pretty unique situation in England (and France to an extent) and I feel like it won't really change unless we get to the stage where RL is a major global sport and they have no choice but to treat it seriously.
I've heard this before actually. It's certainly a good sign they've done a bit with development, and that should help raise awareness in the public consciousness, but maybe it's time the RFL decided to take the bull by the horns when it comes to London and start planning for a more stable team there by taking big event games down there to promote the game. Do what the NRL is doing with markets like Perth and have a big Super League clash or a test match there a year for a decade and then slowly seek expressions of interest for a new side. But don't make it an all of London side - target one specific area, as from what I can tell London is a pretty fractured place identity wise.
There are plenty of RL matches in London. The Challenge Cup final is there every year, test matches are there every time there is a series in the UK, England played NZ in London last year in front of 44,000. Wigan played a Super League match against Catalans there last year and drew about 8,000. There are currently two other professional RL teams in London as well as London Broncos who are now in the Championship. But London is an insanely big place and it's very difficult to get any sort of penetration at all, in fact most of the big RU teams have had to move out of the city, London Irish now play in Reading, Wasps relocated to Coventry, Saracens played at Watford for a while and I think they are back in London now at a temporary home. It's just an extremely difficult market to crack. And that really is nothing to do with the RFL, they can't just make teams up out of nowhere even though a lot of Australians seem to think that's what happens in other countries.
I'd also add that with the NRL's adding PNG and Fiji to the lower grade competitions, whilst also running an ever increasing number of Rugby League clinics and supporting local competitions, it's a bit unfair to accuse them of having done nothing.

As for the mid season stuff, with the transition of Origin to now having at least one dedicated weekend, it paves the way for these PI matches to be played then, and so I suspect we may all be jumping the gun here as everyone acknowledges these games are a success and I don't see the ARLC not having a place for them.
I'm not saying they do nothing, it's just that they could be doing so much more and more importantly there seems to be a terrible attitude in general towards international RL, not just from the NRL but from the Australian establishment and media as well. For example not televising last year's England vs NZ series even though they had the rights, or reports today that the budget for the 2017 RLWC has been slashed. At this stage I doubt too many people in Australia even know that that competition is taking place to be honest.
 

RoosTah

Juniors
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2,257
AFL is a sport with an established presence in a major city and population center. Soccer is a global powerhouse with trillions of dollars behind it. RL in England is a sport that recently scrapped its London development officers because they couldn't afford to pay them any more.

That's just awful... what's the state of the RFL's revenue? Is it growing at all?

There is still a bit of cash in the game surely - that Koukash bloke seems to talk big about how much money he's got.

There are plenty of RL matches in London. The Challenge Cup final is there every year, test matches are there every time there is a series in the UK, England played NZ in London last year in front of 44,000. Wigan played a Super League match against Catalans there last year and drew about 8,000. There are currently two other professional RL teams in London as well as London Broncos who are now in the Championship. But London is an insanely big place and it's very difficult to get any sort of penetration at all, in fact most of the big RU teams have had to move out of the city, London Irish now play in Reading, Wasps relocated to Coventry, Saracens played at Watford for a while and I think they are back in London now at a temporary home. It's just an extremely difficult market to crack. And that really is nothing to do with the RFL, they can't just make teams up out of nowhere even though a lot of Australians seem to think that's what happens in other countries.

I can see that for an organisation that is cutting back its number of teams and struggling financially that it would be a hard market to crack, but I think any market that big must have room... it just needs time and investment. Taking tests and the CC Final there is definitely a good idea.

The ARLC should really try get the Kangaroos up there more often and make the games a bigger deal too.

I'm not saying they do nothing, it's just that they could be doing so much more and more importantly there seems to be a terrible attitude in general towards international RL, not just from the NRL but from the Australian establishment and media as well. For example not televising last year's England vs NZ series even though they had the rights, or reports today that the budget for the 2017 RLWC has been slashed. At this stage I doubt too many people in Australia even know that that competition is taking place to be honest.

Most Aussie Rugby League fans are definitely aware that there is a world cup in 2017. Heck, half the conversation after the Trans-Tasman test was centred on Phil Gould's comments that the Kangaroos don't look like winning the 2017 WC if they're playing like that.

On the TV Rights for that last test series, I was seriously annoyed by that... can't understand why you wouldn't run it in the middle of the night.
 

Evil Homer

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7,178
That's just awful... what's the state of the RFL's revenue? Is it growing at all?

There is still a bit of cash in the game surely - that Koukash bloke seems to talk big about how much money he's got.
The RFL's revenues are a lot better than they were about 15 years ago, when the sport was pretty much insolvent. The RFL was actually a really well run organization in the 2000s and grew quite a lot, but it was starting from such a low base. The growth has mostly slowed down since then due to a number of factors, partly due to the global recession. It's not in dire straits but it's definitely not like the NRL where they have a billion dollar TV deal and huge cash surpluses.

Most of the clubs have rich owners like Koukash who keep them afloat but they own the clubs, they don't have anything to do with the RFL. If those owners weren't there propping them up financially then virtually all of the Super League clubs would go bust. The same applies for most soccer and RU clubs BTW, that's the model in British sports.
I can see that for an organisation that is cutting back its number of teams and struggling financially that it would be a hard market to crack, but I think any market that big must have room... it just needs time and investment. Taking tests and the CC Final there is definitely a good idea.
There is room, but it's nothing to do with the RFL. The RFL don't make the clubs or run the clubs. London Broncos can't manage themselves and there isn't anyone else who wants to own a club in London. I think everyone would love there to be a strong Super League club in London but unless someone comes along with millions of pounds to invest and a realistic business plan then it isn't going to happen.
The ARLC should really try get the Kangaroos up there more often and make the games a bigger deal too.
The ARLC getting the Kangaroos to play anyone would be a good start.
 

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