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Match Discussion: Round 5 vs Canterbury @ Accor Stadium, Sydney Olympic Park / Wanngal

Who will win? Round 5: Canterbury v Newcastle

  • Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs 13+

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs 1-12

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Draw after Golden Point

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Newcastle Knights 1-12

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Newcastle Knights 13+

    Votes: 2 66.7%

  • Total voters
    3
  • Poll closed .

Nuke

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
5,501
Well the MRC aren't as blind as the bunker, Preston charged for his high shot on Schiller in the first minute.
Not undeserved, however helps us in no way.

Shame the bunker didn't see what the rest of us saw. Dogs down to 12 men so early in the game while we were still full of energy and enthusiasm might've been handy.
 

Woody90

Bench
Messages
2,919
Not undeserved, however helps us in no way.

Shame the bunker didn't see what the rest of us saw. Dogs down to 12 men so early in the game while we were still full of energy and enthusiasm might've been handy.

Even just allowing us to activate our 18th man would have been nice. It’s ridiculous you can lose 2 players that early and it’s “too bad” unless foul play is involved…and inevitably they usually end up being foul play on the next day review.

Also I can’t remember did DSaf even get onto the field? I feel like if someone’s injured running onto the field you should be able to make a replacement. I recall BJ got hit in the eye by a firework once and the Raiders were allowed to replace him?
 

Nuke

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
5,501
Also I can’t remember did DSaf even get onto the field? I feel like if someone’s injured running onto the field you should be able to make a replacement. I recall BJ got hit in the eye by a firework once and the Raiders were allowed to replace him?
I don't know. I didn't watch the Dolphins game. :p

In all seriousness, yeah, I think JSaf got on, hobbled around the first set, then hobbled off again.
 

Zoidberg

First Grade
Messages
6,649
I recall BJ got hit in the eye by a firework once and the Raiders were allowed to replace him?
Could be wrong but I think they still used him after he got his eye checked out so it’s a little different as Jacob wouldn’t have come on at all.
 

Yosh

Coach
Messages
12,176
Some thoughts after a night's sleep:

Systems were the issue yesterday. Everyone and their grandma knows that Marzhew is weak under the high ball—no player is perfect. The Doggies rushed back Kiraz and set up their attacking kicking game to target our weakness and maximise their strengths. They played the ball left a couple of times so that our defensive line was compressed towards our right, then kicked high to Marzhew. We didn't give him any protection all night. The try they scored was lucky as well. It was frustrating to watch, and AOB made no changes to fix the issue.

Early kicking in the second half. The Doggies started kicking early as soon as the second half began. It was a clear change in strategy—that’s good coaching. I’ve never seen AOB make any adjustments during a game; it’s always Plan A.

Speaking of Plan A... Our approach is to hit the ball one out every single damn time... so we don’t make mistakes, then kick a medium-high ball and let the opposition catch it—so we don’t knock on or miss tackles, and they don’t make a line break. It’s the most boring, negative, and cynical football imaginable. The knock-on effect is that opposing teams know we won’t shift the ball, so they can smash our single ball-carrier; they know we won’t offload, so there’s no threat there; and they know we won’t challenge kicks, so they get an easy catch and can set up for the next carry.

Cogger’s limitations. He’s a very limited player—frustrating as hell—but he does have his strengths. He won’t make stupid mistakes and can stick to a game plan. If the forwards are rolling forward and everyone else knows their role, he’s an excellent piece to have. He’s on peanuts, doesn’t have a big ego, so he’s perfect for a well-coached side like Penrith or the Storm. For a one-dimensional side like ours that relies on individual brilliance rather than structured, well-coached attacking play, he’s unfortunately terrible.

Cant’s performance and Leo’s impact. Cant was brilliant again yesterday—it’s getting harder and harder to dislike the bloke. He seems like a good option on the bench, covering as many positions as Lucas. Leo was immense; I didn’t see him get rested. Doggies fans must be as happy with him as we were. Gagai was good too.

Best’s improvement. Best is becoming such a well-rounded player. Is he the best defensive centre in the game?

On AOB’s coaching. I’m simply not a fan of AOB, to say the least. He might be a decent coach, but it’s hard supporting a team that plays so negatively. Nobody liked the Storm’s boring style 15 years ago, and the NRL changed rules so teams couldn’t play that way anymore. Yet here we are, stuck with the one coach who stubbornly refuses to move with the times.

I can live with a loss but I hate having to spend a week looking ahead to another boring gameplan. The whole NRL wants to see Ponga tear it up but AOB won't allow it it seems.
 

Jono078

Referee
Messages
21,276
We had one of the best attacks just two years ago though.. Sure Dom Young was good for 4 points per game on his own, but even if you add those 4 points to us this year, we're the second worst attack.

When Ponga is submissive in catching the ball you know we have a negative safety first gameplan.

We should be playing expansive in these early rounds so we can build confidence throughout the year. Early pain for later gain. Instead we're playing too safe and we're still suffering and we'll continue to play catch up as other teams start building their confidence and slickness in attack.

Our D has been great, can't fault that. Field position let Marzhew get a constant barrage of bombs last night and our centre and fullback didn't do well enough to get around him or shield him, but they can only do so much when we allow the Dogs to be in a position to attack us.

Sure injuries and some tough luck got us, I have no qualms with that. My issues are with our structures and clunkiness. How and why is this happening?

We ask this every year - except for 2023.

Gamble and Lucas can't come into the squad quick enough.
 

mozza91

Coach
Messages
14,764
We asked this for all but 10 weeks of 2023. We were 14th and 3 points off bottom and Gardner was having coffee with Justin Holbrook when the change was made to Plan A.
Unfortunately Obi has a hard on for winning ugly. We abandoned the 2023 game plan after 1 game last year ffs. It’s the biggest flaw in his coaching.
 

Woody90

Bench
Messages
2,919
I got no idea what the plan is this year, other than dropping the ball every set.

This. I don’t really get people saying our attacking style is bad when we haven’t held the ball for enough sets to know what our plan/style is.

The one half of football this year we actually held onto the ball (first half against the Dolphins) we looked good. Other than that we’ve dropped it too much to know what our attacking plan is. Really need to focus on ball security as it’s a big cause of all of the other issues.
 

Yosh

Coach
Messages
12,176
This. I don’t really get people saying our attacking style is bad when we haven’t held the ball for enough sets to know what our plan/style is.

The one half of football this year we actually held onto the ball (first half against the Dolphins) we looked good. Other than that we’ve dropped it too much to know what our attacking plan is. Really need to focus on ball security as it’s a big cause of all of the other issues.
Attack isn't only when we are in the opposition 20 metre zone. It's whenever we have the ball, where we give them the ball back, how we plan the 80 minutes etc. We should be attacking them anywhere across the park. Instead AOB has us playing football from decades ago where we only hit the ball up one out until we get to the opposition red zone. It worked for the Storm because they had the likes of Cam Smith, Slater, Cronk, Inglis etc.

We need to player smarter. Our defense is top class. The attack is broken and has been for ages. It needs a revamp and I don't think AOB is the man to do it.
 
Messages
2,177
We looked our best when Ponga goes to 1st receiver and Sharpe floats out (and Cogger just gtfo of the way) to keep the edges honest and create space. We went away from that in the last 2 games.

Also hasn't helped that we lost a huge threat in Lucas on our left edge. He was a big part of how dangerous that side was in the opening rounds
 

Woody90

Bench
Messages
2,919
Attack isn't only when we are in the opposition 20 metre zone. It's whenever we have the ball, where we give them the ball back, how we plan the 80 minutes etc. We should be attacking them anywhere across the park. Instead AOB has us playing football from decades ago where we only hit the ball up one out until we get to the opposition red zone. It worked for the Storm because they had the likes of Cam Smith, Slater, Cronk, Inglis etc.

We need to player smarter. Our defense is top class. The attack is broken and has been for ages. It needs a revamp and I don't think AOB is the man to do it.

We're not just dropping it in the opposition's 20, where dropping it everywhere. We're making it literally impossible for ourselves to build any type of pressure or get any type of fluency in attack.

The Bulldogs put on a masterclass in how to play effective attack on Sunday. They couldn't break us down initially but they didn't get inpatient and start throwing it around in their own end trying to strip us for numbers. They stuck to their plan until we eventually cracked. We're never going to be able to build any attacking pressure anywhere on the field until we can hold the damn ball.

You need to go back and watch our first half against the Dolphins - the only half of football this year where we didn't drop it a million times. After we'd held the ball consistently and built pressure on the opposition, we did start throwing it around in our own end. There was a nice passage where Ponga, Marzhew and Sharpe linked up out of our own end that lead to a try. You have to earn the right to do that though by building pressure on the opposition first.


Edit: re the Ponga at first receiver: I think we've looked best when he plays a combination of first and second receiver throughout games. He's too predictable just always sitting on the end of shape so I like him getting into first receiver, but at the same time you don't want him never being wider out with space either. The mixture of both makes him more unpredictable. It's all moot though - neither are going to be effective if we drop the ball before it even gets to him.
 
Last edited:

Yosh

Coach
Messages
12,176
We're not just dropping it in the opposition's 20, where dropping it everywhere. We're making it literally impossible for ourselves to build any type of pressure or get any type of fluency in attack.

The Bulldogs put on a masterclass in how to play effective attack on Sunday. They couldn't break us down initially but they didn't get inpatient and start throwing it around in their own end trying to strip us for numbers. They stuck to their plan until we eventually cracked. We're never going to be able to build any attacking pressure anywhere on the field until we can hold the damn ball.

You need to go back and watch our first half against the Dolphins - the only half of football this year where we didn't drop it a million times. After we'd held the ball consistently and built pressure on the opposition, we did start throwing it around in our own end. There was a nice passage where Ponga, Marzhew and Sharpe linked up out of our own end that lead to a try. You have to earn the right to do that though by building pressure on the opposition first.


Edit: re the Ponga at first receiver: I think we've looked best when he plays a combination of first and second receiver throughout games. He's too predictable just always sitting on the end of shape so I like him getting into first receiver, but at the same time you don't want him never being wider out with space either. The mixture of both makes him more unpredictable. It's all moot though - neither are going to be effective if we drop the ball before it even gets to him.
I agree with you there, but hear me out: our attack is putting us in positions where there’s a higher chance of making mistakes. That’s what I’m saying.


We carry the ball one-out every single time. Opposing teams know it. They rush our single ball carrier with three or four defenders, and they don’t even need to wrap the ball up because we never offload. Then we get a slow play-the-ball, the defense sets up again, and they smash us. If we played wider—getting Ponga the ball at first receiver so he can pass one man wider—it would keep the opposition guessing: will Ponga run it, or will he pass? That way, we wouldn’t have three or four defenders smashing our lone ball carrier every time. If Ponga was getting into first receiver all the time, then going the other way will be more effective that it is now.

Our main kicker literally can’t kick it long. Why does Cogger do most of our kicking? We keep handing the ball back in good field position, and our opponents finish their sets by kicking high to Marzhew. Everyone knows Marzhew struggles under the high ball. Even if he manages to defuse it, he’s bringing it off his own goal line against a compressed defense. Of course he’s going to make mistakes. We should build our game plan around handing the ball back deep in the opposition half, forcing them to kick long to Marzhew. Then he has time to wind up and make those barnstorming runs—he won’t be dropping the ball, he’ll be dropping opposition defenders. How is it to be the other winger in our team because other teams never attack or kick down that way.

Why aren’t we challenging kicks? What’s the logic behind that? Is AOB some kind of revolutionary? Is this how the game is going to be played by every successful team in 10 years? We have the worst attack in the NRL, while all the good attacking teams score heaps off high kicks. Look at Kiraz vs. Marzhew. Why is AOB being so stubborn? He’s sticking with this approach, but why? What's the logic behind it? Is this the hill he is going to die on?

Why aren’t we playing Ponga at first receiver literally every second play-the-ball? Why is the worst player on our team getting the most touches? Why do we play away from Ponga in the opposition’s red zone? Why do we have an amazing counterattacking weapon in Sharpe but never offload or promote a second-phase play? AOB didn’t let Clifford bomb the ball (even though that’s his best weapon), and he won’t let KPP offload (even though that’s his best weapon). Why do we keep sabotaging ourselves? Our lack of attack is piling pressure on our defense, which leads to more errors. Because we can’t score, we resort to low-percentage plays, creating even more mistakes.

I’m of the opinion AOB still has a job only because our defense is so good. It’s up there with the best. If our defense were shabby, we’d be losing every game by 30, and AOB would’ve been gone a long time ago. The only reason I can still watch our games is due to our defense. Was fantastic seeing Best get the better of Crichton the whole game. It's a pity that we defend so well 90% of the game then let them just breeze through the middle at least once a game.

The script’s already been written. We’ll win a game here and there, then make a big run at the end of the season and scrape into the eight. We'll make the run because we will start getting Ponga the ball more, try to offload more and stop being so conservative in attack. It'll allow our players to actually play the game. AOB will give in because he gives in to the pressure and loosen his grip on the squad which improves our attack. However, we’ll lose in the first round but still feel good because we made finals. AOB will be given another season because we’ve got Brown coming in, and it’ll all repeat.

Rant over. Thanks to anyone who read it.
 

Woody90

Bench
Messages
2,919
I agree with you there, but hear me out: our attack is putting us in positions where there’s a higher chance of making mistakes. That’s what I’m saying.


We carry the ball one-out every single time. Opposing teams know it. They rush our single ball carrier with three or four defenders, and they don’t even need to wrap the ball up because we never offload. Then we get a slow play-the-ball, the defense sets up again, and they smash us. If we played wider—getting Ponga the ball at first receiver so he can pass one man wider—it would keep the opposition guessing: will Ponga run it, or will he pass? That way, we wouldn’t have three or four defenders smashing our lone ball carrier every time. If Ponga was getting into first receiver all the time, then going the other way will be more effective that it is now.

Our main kicker literally can’t kick it long. Why does Cogger do most of our kicking? We keep handing the ball back in good field position, and our opponents finish their sets by kicking high to Marzhew. Everyone knows Marzhew struggles under the high ball. Even if he manages to defuse it, he’s bringing it off his own goal line against a compressed defense. Of course he’s going to make mistakes. We should build our game plan around handing the ball back deep in the opposition half, forcing them to kick long to Marzhew. Then he has time to wind up and make those barnstorming runs—he won’t be dropping the ball, he’ll be dropping opposition defenders. How is it to be the other winger in our team because other teams never attack or kick down that way.

Why aren’t we challenging kicks? What’s the logic behind that? Is AOB some kind of revolutionary? Is this how the game is going to be played by every successful team in 10 years? We have the worst attack in the NRL, while all the good attacking teams score heaps off high kicks. Look at Kiraz vs. Marzhew. Why is AOB being so stubborn? He’s sticking with this approach, but why? What's the logic behind it? Is this the hill he is going to die on?

Why aren’t we playing Ponga at first receiver literally every second play-the-ball? Why is the worst player on our team getting the most touches? Why do we play away from Ponga in the opposition’s red zone? Why do we have an amazing counterattacking weapon in Sharpe but never offload or promote a second-phase play? AOB didn’t let Clifford bomb the ball (even though that’s his best weapon), and he won’t let KPP offload (even though that’s his best weapon). Why do we keep sabotaging ourselves? Our lack of attack is piling pressure on our defense, which leads to more errors. Because we can’t score, we resort to low-percentage plays, creating even more mistakes.

I’m of the opinion AOB still has a job only because our defense is so good. It’s up there with the best. If our defense were shabby, we’d be losing every game by 30, and AOB would’ve been gone a long time ago. The only reason I can still watch our games is due to our defense. Was fantastic seeing Best get the better of Crichton the whole game. It's a pity that we defend so well 90% of the game then let them just breeze through the middle at least once a game.

The script’s already been written. We’ll win a game here and there, then make a big run at the end of the season and scrape into the eight. We'll make the run because we will start getting Ponga the ball more, try to offload more and stop being so conservative in attack. It'll allow our players to actually play the game. AOB will give in because he gives in to the pressure and loosen his grip on the squad which improves our attack. However, we’ll lose in the first round but still feel good because we made finals. AOB will be given another season because we’ve got Brown coming in, and it’ll all repeat.

Rant over. Thanks to anyone who read it.

We drop the ball when we’re trying to play off the cuff and expansive, we drop the ball when we’re running one out…we’re basically dropping the ball in every situation.

No style is going to work for us if we can’t hold the ball.

For the record, I never said we had a good style of play, just that we really have no idea what “style” we’re aiming for, when we automatically drop the ball before we can get into any type of groove. The one half of footy we held the ball we looked good though.

I do agree with you re Cogger doing all the long kicks but we don’t have many options. I’d be getting Crossland to do a few more.

Dropping the ball so much contributed significantly to the Dogs being able to bomb Marzhew on the try line so much.
 
Messages
2,177
I see this a lot but imo it isn't true, the four tries in the first half against the phins when we looked like a proper team were all Ponga pushing up into the line at second receiver.
That's only looking at the tries though. We made line breaks and yardage by pushing Ponga in earlier then changing it up later.

Point is, Ponga gets shut down a lot when he only plays out the back as it's much easier for oppositions to read. Using him in a few variations of play doesn't let the defence set up for him.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
27,007
That's only looking at the tries though. We made line breaks and yardage by pushing Ponga in earlier then changing it up later.

Point is, Ponga gets shut down a lot when he only plays out the back as it's much easier for oppositions to read. Using him in a few variations of play doesn't let the defence set up for him.
It also creates more variation that gives him more space out the back of shape. Ponga popping up with more variety is strictly a good thing if he can actually execute it. It looked really good early, they've lost their way now. It doesn't help having a halfback that struggles to get the ball wider than himself, regardless of where he pops up.
 

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