Matthew Johns sex scandal in 2002

[herbert henry1908]

You & Timmah will just have to take my word on it.

Men can make judgements.

I really dont understand.

In order to make a judgement you have to take everything into account.

If she didnt say no and didnt fight them off what other judgement could they make other than she was ok with it?

this is an honest question by the way.

 

[Pete Cash]

Consent isn't implicit though, she has to actually give it. Not that I watched the programme she may have.

Anyway, its all rather moot to discuss the legality of it or the ethics behind reporting it. The fact is that Rugby League has a MASSIVE image problem and railing against the media is not going to stop it. What will stop it is if these incidents stop happening.

 

[Timmah]

Yes, and that investigation took place some time after the event, and ultimately comes down to a bunch of players saying one thing and her saying something different.

You're f**ked mate, with all due respect. The fact you want to assume someone committed a criminal act is truly disgusting. The facts are NOT in your favour.

Matt Johns seemed pretty contrite last Thursday.

Apart from that, it's just faith in common decency. Maybe I'm wrong and the blokes involved are proud of their efforts and would do it again tomorrow.

But I don't think I'm wrong.

Of course he was f**king contrite, it was publicised that he has been unfaithful to his wife - and dredged up again for his family after seven years. The family - his wife and kids - had already been through that, and healed all this time on presumably. To have it brought up again as an engine for the ABC to air further unsubstantiated claims from headline grabbing fashionistas and groupies (read: Charmayne Palavi) when he'd done nothing newly wrong and seemingly already paid pretty heavily on a personal level, that's rough. He'll suffer further now, and maybe well he should, but at the same time that's only because we know about it. And given it was deemed consensual and took place privately - maybe we shouldn't have ever known. That's my opinion - we aren't the ones who should be judging.

 

[Engine]

Consent is implicit. Who says "Yes, you can call ten of your mates to examine my orfices".

 

[bartman]

I think your ideas are ordinary. Yes getting bums on seats and getting sponsorship money is important but without players you dont have a game. What player in their right mind would consider accepting a fine while spending time with their families and having no involvement?

Not my idea originally, but one I supported once it was posted. Think it's worth a try, even as a scare tactic to achieve the change in culture that would benefit our game. What player in their right mind wouldn't think a bit harder about where they (or their teammates) put their dick with a fine hanging over all of their heads.

Nature of consensual sex? who cares if it is consensual and not illegal? Yeah I wouldnt do it and a rugby league player doing it wouldnt make me go out and do it so why care?

I think the bit you missed was what if it wasn't illegal, but wasn't consensual... in many people's moral judgement the two are separate things. And league has to appeal to "many" people, not just the already converted.

The NRL are doing the right thing with offenders but by focusing on consensual and illegal behaviour i think we are barking up the wrong tree.

Fair point, but like it or not it's a tree we have to bark up, if player behaviour continues to impact the games revenue, market, potential participation rates etc.

My God, do you read what you're writing? Hence private lives (in so far as public alcohol and sexual incidents)... that doesn't even make sense!

Glad you picked up on my connection between private and public... this "private" behaviour of Johns and Firman became "public" when they invited in teammates seemingly without the woman's prior knowledge and consent.

Alcohol incidents alone are a problem and need to be looked at. Any sexual assault such as the alleged Stewart incident this year, need to be looked at. Something like this Johns incident and other similar ones should stay where they are, behind closed doors.

If player behaviour impacts on the game's public image (as this one has done now - even though the "game" knew about it when the police interviewed all the club's players) then private becomes public, imo. Why have a distinction and have the league always acting one step behind. Why can't we be proactive in changing this attitude, and get one step ahead of the public-private debate, by not having anything dodgy (eg Coffs, this, Stewart, doesn't matter about charges or convictions or not) to impact our game's fortunes in the first place.

If you decided to have consensual group sex with a girl and five other blokes, you would not want it newspaper and television fodder, and nor should it be. That's your personal decision to take part in that, behind closed doors.

If I decided to do that, I would firstly be aware that it carries much more risk than a one-on-one consential sex act, particularly if I was a high profile personality whose industry relies on public image to survive and make money... And I would realise that regardless of what I want, maybe I should hold off and not participate if I don't want my wife to get angry, my kids to cop sh*t at school, and my career to go down the toilet!

But keep flying the flag for behaviour that brings down our games' image Timmah. Rather than for the game to radically improve the off-field education and mentoring it offers its highly paid (but somewhat socially challenged) employees...

 

[$$Poor Boy Blues$$]

You're f**ked mate, with all due respect. The fact you want to assume someone committed a criminal act is truly disgusting. The facts are NOT in your favour.

Of course he was f**king contrite, it was publicised that he has been unfaithful to his wife - and dredged up again for his family after seven years. The family - his wife and kids - had already been through that, and healed all this time on presumably. To have it brought up again as an engine for the ABC to air further unsubstantiated claims from headline grabbing fashionistas and groupies (read: Charmayne Palavi) when he'd done nothing newly wrong and seemingly already paid pretty heavily on a personal level, that's rough. He'll suffer further now, and maybe well he should, but at the same time that's only because we know about it. And given it was deemed consensual and took place privately - maybe we shouldn't have ever known. That's my opinion - we aren't the ones who should be judging.

**I draw your atention to a post i made recently**

I think you have a point.

In situations like these girls like all the 'guilt' of the occurance off them. In nature, the female always has final say; an inherant right to say "No. Stop"

I guess the trouble is to do with yours/hers comfort zone. Lets not forget that in these group sex situations, there being many people involved naturally complicates comfort zones. Say she likes 2 of the guys a lot and likes what they are doing, but dislikes a 3rd and thinks he's doing something wrong.

Thats the danger. Remember, in rights of courtship, human beings are no different from any other species. There are a number of steps which must be correctly followed....everything from eye contact and innitial conversation, right up to the moment of the act of sex, and the performing of sex.

It only takes one thing to go wrong along the line ( and lets remember the chances of that is multiplied by the number of people involved) and you can kiss your comfort zone goodbye. Once you are at that stage, what do you do?

It would be hard enough to get one guy to stop, let alone all of them. But what if she wants one guy to stop and not the others, or she is distancing herself from one somehow? What if he picks up on this and tries harder and makes it worse.

Even at the completion of the sex act if the girl is not comfortable with it all and has felt she has lost control of the situation/was violated/felt bad, a high risk of a backlash is there. Whats more, what if the guys left her in a fragile way, not knowingly even? Did they care too?

Remember that females reserve the right to say no. But in normal circumstances the interaction and method by which she evokes this right is not always a black and white case. Mix in multiple men involved, and it can become more confusing to her. Even if she consented to it in the first place.

____

As to the story, I would think its prime intent was to provoke attention to and examine an interesting element within the sport - the sex romps. I dont think the story was a seek and destroy league story.

____

I personally think that we as humans love to dance around issues before we ever try and tackle them head on. Thats whats needed more. If by highlighting and examining these issues we are shedding some insight into whats occuring, then i think we can learn from it. Its in the public eye, and this should serve as a greater impetus to really get to the bottom of the issue and tackle it head on: starting with players atitudes toward women.

I dont get into much group sex, but I have examined the mechanics of relationships extensively. It remains a womens right to say no. It will always be that way, whether men think it correct or not. I do know that chosing group sex partners is a critcal componant to an enjoyable time. And young women are more fickle and less emmotionally developed to handle a bad time. Meaning they are young, they can land themselves in mess, just like guys.

Its easy for us to say she should just put it down to a bad time....but feelings are not always so easy to remove.

Its time for players to act better toward women. And choose more wisely.

____

In andrews case i think its wrong that he should be dragged through the mud again in public. The media knows no bounds, believing everything public domain. On some levels it is, but in this I personally would have spared him if I could. I only hope this goes a long way to showing other players a better way to live. And im sorry for Andrew. I dont know his situation but we are all human. I hope he can put this behind him.

 

[Parra]

I really dont understand.

In order to make a judgement you have to take everything into account.

If she didnt say no and didnt fight them off what other judgement could they make other than she was ok with it?

this is an honest question by the way.

You don't need to "take everything into account"

You can use experience. At 30 you have enough to be able to judge boundaries for normal or acceptable behaviour and when those lines have been breached. In Johns own words, after he finished he "Took a step back"

Why would he do this if everything was normal and sweet? Easy answer - because it wasn't. No matter who you are - this was not a normal situation. That alone should be a concern. Given the age of the girl - much moreso. Apart from that, it is up to the participants. Given the fact the girl went to the police, the reaction of the police and the long-term damage you may be able to draw some conclusions.

None of it sounds like much fun, or the sort of thing any of the participants marked up as a career highlight.

In short - in retrospect everyone involved seems to regret the incident. Which indicates that someone could have used some better judgement at the time to avoid it occurring.

Given the numbers involved and the statements that followed - the person best positioned to use that judgement was not the 19 year old girl.

 

[El Diablo]

Roy Masters was on “The Offsiders” program yesterday and said he was interviewed for 1 & 1/2 hours for the program. Roy asked 4 Corners why other sports had not been put under the spotlight and he was told that that they only had a short turn around time and did not have enough time and resources to investigate the other the codes. I hope they find time and resources to do a program or 10 on AFL

lol

the ABC would have been lying

they had enough resources to have a go at the NRL last time they did an AFL story

they're just tabloid trash

 

[typicalfan]

Well my opinion on whether there was consent or not is judged by the verdict handed out.

You can throw many hypotheticals but this is what the law of the land has said.

So yes to me it was consensual and not illegal. And unless shown otherwise I will remain of that opinion.

 

[myanonymoususername]

You're f**ked mate, with all due respect. The fact you want to assume someone committed a criminal act is truly disgusting. The facts are NOT in your favour.

I don't believe the so-called "facts" support any particular view. There are the "facts" according to the woman and the "facts" according to the players. In all likelihood the real "facts" are somewhere between those versions of what happened. You are adamant that the players' "facts" are real, I am merely pointing out that they are no more real than the woman's "facts".

 

[ibeme]

**I draw your atention to a post i made recently**

I think you have a point.

In situations like these girls like all the 'guilt' of the occurance off them. In nature, the female always has final say; an inherant right to say "No. Stop"

I guess the trouble is to do with yours/hers comfort zone. Lets not forget that in these group sex situations, there being many people involved naturally complicates comfort zones. Say she likes 2 of the guys a lot and likes what they are doing, but dislikes a 3rd and thinks he's doing something wrong.

Thats the danger. Remember, in rights of courtship, human beings are no different from any other species. There are a number of steps which must be correctly followed....everything from eye contact and innitial conversation, right up to the moment of the act of sex, and the performing of sex.

It only takes one thing to go wrong along the line ( and lets remember the chances of that is multiplied by the number of people involved) and you can kiss your comfort zone goodbye. Once you are at that stage, what do you do?

It would be hard enough to get one guy to stop, let alone all of them. But what if she wants one guy to stop and not the others, or she is distancing herself from one somehow? What if he picks up on this and tries harder and makes it worse.

Even at the completion of the sex act if the girl is not comfortable with it all and has felt she has lost control of the situation/was violated/felt bad, a high risk of a backlash is there. Whats more, what if the guys left her in a fragile way, not knowingly even? Did they care too?

Remember that females reserve the right to say no. But in normal circumstances the interaction and method by which she evokes this right is not always a black and white case. Mix in multiple men involved, and it can become more confusing to her. Even if she consented to it in the first place.

____

As to the story, I would think its prime intent was to provoke attention to and examine an interesting element within the sport - the sex romps. I dont think the story was a seek and destroy league story.

____

I personally think that we as humans love to dance around issues before we ever try and tackle them head on. Thats whats needed more. If by highlighting and examining these issues we are shedding some insight into whats occuring, then i think we can learn from it. Its in the public eye, and this should serve as a greater impetus to really get to the bottom of the issue and tackle it head on: starting with players atitudes toward women.

I dont get into much group sex, but I have examined the mechanics of relationships extensively. It remains a womens right to say no. It will always be that way, whether men think it correct or not. I do know that chosing group sex partners is a critcal componant to an enjoyable time. And young women are more fickle and less emmotionally developed to handle a bad time. Meaning they are young, they can land themselves in mess, just like guys.

Its easy for us to say she should just put it down to a bad time....but feelings are not always so easy to remove.

Its time for players to act better toward women. And choose more wisely.

____

In andrews case i think its wrong that he should be dragged through the mud again in public. The media knows no bounds, believing everything public domain. On some levels it is, but in this I personally would have spared him if I could. I only hope this goes a long way to showing other players a better way to live. And im sorry for Andrew. I dont know his situation but we are all human. I hope he can put this behind him.

I think you've summed up what I've been describing as they 'grey areas' in terms of consent perfectly. Things can head down the wrong path quite easily, and without a clear response or objection from any party involved, perceptions can be quite different with regards to consent.

 

[bartman]

what other test can there possibly be?!

are the men involved meant to know what she was thinking? If a woman doesnt say "NO" how is a man meant to know to stop?

Wow...

* Looks like reading through you aren't the only one who thinks that way about consent and responsiveness, so no personal offence intended *

Ever heard of feeling the nuances in the body movements of the person you are with? Whether they are equally participating (as opposed to just lying there and copping it), or whether they tense up if things are too hard, fast or at the wrong angle, or respecting and communicating with the other party while you are sharing a physical experience...

There are so many ways that men can gauge consent before and during sex without it simply being a test of the absence of the word NO.

 

[Engine]

Everybody is at fault here. No rape occured. Matt and mates played "Save the Titanic" with her and that was that.

 

[Engine]

Nobody verbally asks for sex.

 

[Pete Cash]

Nobody verbally asks for sex.

In NSW (which is obviously going to be different to New Zealand and perhaps others states and once again I didn't watch the show) consent must be given and the person has to be in a fit state to give it (ie they can't be drunk)

That is the law.

 

[bartman]

Yes but they are enforced strongly already in their own code of conduct. Does the NRL have such limitations? If not then it is a non issue, if they decide to implement it in a code of conduct then from now on obviously it is an issue. What Matt Johns did in 2002 breaches no laws set out by the NRL or otherwise.

Agree with that bit.

But also agree that the NRL needs to do more - and that would include being more explicit in their code of conduct about behaviour that brings the game into disrepute (note, separate to and not necessarily illegal) and punishments as a motivation for current players to change the culture at the top, education programs and mentoring for younger guys coming through.

If the NRL did this (instead of thinking head in the sand they are doing enough) and players followed suit, then the program in 10 years time would be all about a different code. And our code would gain/keep/have the inside run for greater participation rates and family attendences and ratings in comparison.

 

[Engine]

Have you ever verbally asked for sex? I've never done that in my life. But, to my great fortune, they consented

 

[ibeme]

Wow...

No personal offence intended, but ever heard of feeling the nuances in the body movements of the person you are with? Whether they are equally participating (as opposed to just lying there and copping it), or whether they tense up if things are too hard, fast or at the wrong angle, or respecting and communicating with the other party while you are sharing a physical experience...

There are so many ways that men can gauge consent before and during sex without it simply being a test of the absence of the word NO.

And being human, they can quite easily get it wrong. Have you ever thought that someone was going to shake your hand, so you've placed your hand out to shake their hand only to be left hanging.

Despite your belief that body language is a fail safe method for gauging consent, history and human nature are against you, especially in a situation like this. You need to read poor boy blue's post. He's spot on.

 

[God-King Dean]

Do not underestimate the power of the donkey punch.

 

[Pete Cash]

Have you ever verbally asked for sex? I've never done that in my life. But, to my great fortune, they consented

The only time it is really awkward is when you are picking up strangers. I have been with my current girlfriend for years now and I am smart enough to know whats cool and not cool. So no I don't really get her to sign any forms or anything :lol:

Just from a legal point of view you do need to get consent technically every time you have sex.