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Michael Hagan, Brian Smith offer feud for thought

Karmawave

Bench
Messages
4,950
In 1988 half our firstgraders were semi-pro and the coaching and support staff could meet in a phonebox.
Our NYC team is a more professional, well paid and well run outfit than our 1988 firstgrade side was - and would probably beat the 1988 firstgrade side by 50.


You keep harking back to professionalism. No one denies the game is more professional now than ever before in facilities etc for all age levels. That comes naturally with moving with the times, no different to you being able to call off a mobile phone from the game instead of the nearest phonebox where the support staff could have met.

Are the Knights financially better off? No.

So tell me where exactly this business model is doing anything more ( or better ) than any other business in the world of sports from a financial perspective?

The game is not maximising its profit potential, it undersells its key products ( TV, multimedia ) , it has a team in Melbourne who survive on being propped up by the charity of News Corp, it has teams in Sydney losing money and fans, it has crowd figures that are close to records that you speak of superficially inflated by record number of comp tickets like the 5000 tickets being handed out for free in a crowd of 9200 last night, and TV ratings in Sydney ( where most of the NRL teams play out of ) on a massive slide and beating only SBS on Friday nights.

And the business is a success?

Deluded.
 
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roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
it's a non profit organisation.
it would be nice to have a few bucks in the bank, but spending every penny on the team does not mean they are failing.
If they were a PLC like the Broncos then not showing a profit would be a mark of failure - but paying the bills is all they have to do.
 

Karmawave

Bench
Messages
4,950
it's a non profit organisation.
it would be nice to have a few bucks in the bank, but spending every penny on the team does not mean they are failing.
If they were a PLC like the Broncos then not showing a profit would be a mark of failure - but paying the bills is all they have to do.


That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you say Roopy.

A rugby league team is now a non profit organisation. Maybe they should register as a charity? :lol:

You've just proven your credentials to me for the NRL board. You are now officially a perfect candidate to sit on the NRL board! They love people like you Roopy.
 
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keeney

First Grade
Messages
6,640
I don't like Karma, but he's right about the shortcomings of NSW teams as businesses. Spending every penny on the team is not something they do out of choice, it is because we only just make enough to cover costs (in an average year), and it is not the hallmark of a successful business.
 

reginald.p

Juniors
Messages
208
Actually i read a letter in the Newcastle Herald by Steve Burraston where he called the Newcastle Knights a non profit organization.
 

Karmawave

Bench
Messages
4,950
Actually i read a letter in the Newcastle Herald by Steve Burraston where he called the Newcastle Knights a non profit organization.


Link? ;-)

If he has ever used the term non profit organisation, he is in line for a gig with the NRL too. And he should hang his head in shame.

Good to see Burro and the admin staff have plans to save some money for a rainy day ( literally )... :roll:

When our profits are in direct proportion to the state of the weather for our home games, all the more reason for better business acumen than ever to ensure the finances are capable of being able to ' weather the storm '.

So you're suggesting Steve Burraston, as CEO of the Knights, is not trying to make a profit this year for the club? The Knights are a non profit organisation not by choice, but by the fact the NRL grants are not enough for each team because the NRL profits are not being boosted by TV deals etc that the sport deserves. The Knights, and many other NSW teams, just try to keep their head above water. And its that very reason why blokes like Gasnier and Sonny Bill leave for more $.
 
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Adsy

Juniors
Messages
2,054
http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=204761

There you go Karma.

Burraston has mentioned it about 5 times this year that the Knights are a non for profit organisation.

I don't think he means it in the normal business sense though cause I'm sure if we averaged 25,000 people a game this year then we would make a large profit and put it in the bank for future years.

I think he means the Knights don't venture into any transactions with the sole purpose being to turn a profit at the end of the year. Sure that is great but the success of the club comes first which is why all the revenue is rolled back into the Knights not left in the bank.

PS. I do business managment and marketing at uni and I can't believe how NRL clubs can't turn out profits every year.
 

keeney

First Grade
Messages
6,640
You're right Adsy, a traditional not for profit organisation operates under the assumption that any profits are turned towards their ventures and not retained to enrich it's owners/investors, ie. charities. This is similar to the Knights, in the sense that they don't run or invest to earn a profit to make any individual or group richer, their profits would be turned to enriching the organisation and game in the area, just because the organisation is not for profit in the strictly commercial sense, the dearth of profits is by no means a product of design.

I'd imagine the majority of charities and churches world over make a profit, does this proclude them from being not for profit organisations? No, it means they are well run businesses who devote their profits to the furtherment of their stated aims, as we would be doing if we were succesful.
 

Karmawave

Bench
Messages
4,950
The point being, that they aren't a ' non profit organisation ' by choice.


Its just the term used for the dire financial situation of many NRL teams, Knights included.

Burraston and other NRL teams would love to be banking money every year, while still having enough to budget for other areas, such as matchday experience, but while ever the NRL undersells its product to major corporations, they never will.
 
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roopy

Referee
Messages
27,980
any organisation that isn't in the business of making money for owners or shareholders is a non profit organisation.
Doesn't mean they are not allowed to make profits and expand - it's just what you call them.
The whole idea behind a publicly listed or privately owned company is to make a profit.
The idea behind an NPO is whatever the organisation says it is - in the case of the Knights, to put a decent footy side on the field.
 

keeney

First Grade
Messages
6,640
Which a profit would obviously help? You're arguing a stupid angle Roopy, one that stinks of back peddling. The fact of the matter is the classification of NPO of the Knights has nothing to do with the fact that they aren't making a profit, and as such, not an excuse. More profit = better facilities, staff, greater autonomy from Wests and provisions for rainy days.
 

Karmawave

Bench
Messages
4,950
Which a profit would obviously help? You're arguing a stupid angle Roopy, one that stinks of back peddling. The fact of the matter is the classification of NPO of the Knights has nothing to do with the fact that they aren't making a profit, and as such, not an excuse. More profit = better facilities, staff, greater autonomy from Wests and provisions for rainy days.



Spot on 100%.

This whole topic has gone off track, using sideline issues that are completely irrelevant to the fact that the NRL is not earning $$ to their full potential - which leaves the game, and all of its clubs, in a problematic situation, and the health of the game in general teetering on the edge, while its most marketable participants - the most famous players - look elsewhere to earn what they deserve.

Going off onto tangents to hide away from the reality of the issues facing the game right now, only lends to creating more problems.

As for NPO's - you'd like to think the mentality of Burraston and the Knights would not be using it as an excuse or crutch for their end of financial year LOSSES - which I am pretty certain is not the goal of ANY business - NPO or shareholder owned.

No business should be losing money. Certainly not 20 years after it was supposedly " growing " as Roopy claimed.
 

TooheysNew

Coach
Messages
1,109
I'm only because I don't know, but is it a matter of us not making more money, or is it a matter of us making more money but spending it as quick as it comes in?

I realise its not an ideal situation, and we aren't making anywhere near our potential, but is the issue really that we don't make profit, or just not enough money?
 

Karmawave

Bench
Messages
4,950
I'm only because I don't know, but is it a matter of us not making more money, or is it a matter of us making more money but spending it as quick as it comes in?

I realise its not an ideal situation, and we aren't making anywhere near our potential, but is the issue really that we don't make profit, or just not enough money?


Obviously just not enough money.

Seen the Knights matchday entertainment lately? :lol:


Or Steve Burraston practically begging people to come to games using a scare tactic to take games away from Newcastle?

I think that says it all.

It all comes back to the NRL though Coby. If the NRL was earning what it should be earning from its TV rights deal and multimedia deal with Telstra ( a joke of a deal even bigger than the TV rights ), then all clubs would be given more money each year as part of the annual NRL grants. The salary cap could potentially be raised, and the Knights and every other NRL team, have more money in the bank.
 
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TooheysNew

Coach
Messages
1,109
Obviously just not enough money.

Seen the Knights matchday entertainment lately? :lol:


Or Steve Burraston practically begging people to come to games using a scare tactic to take games away from Newcastle?

I think that says it all.

It all comes back to the NRL though Coby. If the NRL was earning what it should be earning from its TV rights deal and multimedia deal with Telstra ( a joke of a deal even bigger than the TV rights ), then all clubs would be given more money each year as part of the annual NRL grants. The salary cap could potentially be raised, and the Knights and every other NRL team, have more money in the bank.
Haven't been to a game in months. :oops:

Noticed the Steve Burraston one though.
 

Serc

First Grade
Messages
6,902
Burraston and other NRL teams would love to be banking money every year, while still having enough to budget for other areas, such as matchday experience, but while ever the NRL undersells its product to major corporations, they never will.

...which leads us to the real issue - and that is News Ltd. They own x percentage of the NRL (i think its 50%), and undersells this product to ITSELF!
 

Karmawave

Bench
Messages
4,950
...which leads us to the real issue - and that is News Ltd. They own x percentage of the NRL (i think its 50%), and undersells this product to ITSELF!


Exactly.

Spin doctoring the issues goes on every day - especially David Gallop, and he is protected from both Roy Masters and Phil Gould where any real hard hitting questioning can take place for any length of time.

David Gallop loves to point out how AFL gets more for TV rights than the NRL because of its broad cross section into other major cities like Perth and Adelaide, but forgets to mention that regional NSW and Qld ( which includes us here in Newcastle ) is bigger in population than both Adelaide and Perth.

Alot of facts are conveniently overlooked when he is interviewed. Lots of fluff and diversions. Kinda reminds me of some posts in here.

But hey, lets all close our eyes and hope we wake up tomorrow and everythings all ok again :lol:
 

keeney

First Grade
Messages
6,640
Man you're self righteous. Nobody is so misguided as to believe Gallop's recent comments. Don't over inflate your self worth based on that perceptive gem.
 

Karmawave

Bench
Messages
4,950
Man you're self righteous. Nobody is so misguided as to believe Gallop's recent comments. Don't over inflate your self worth based on that perceptive gem.

Hey, as far as I can tell, EVERYONE can see what I just stated. ( well everyone who isn't in denial )

Certainly not claiming the observations as my own Keeney :lol:

Geez dude. Chillax son.
 
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