New signing Ikahihifo

[Vasilevsky]

Agree re: Dugan. His issue isnt inability to pass, its his instincts and insbilty to make a snap decision. When he gets the the ball, his first instinct is to run. He will see a small gap or a player pair his feet and he will ruin the ball. Which is good a lot of the time, but if course he misses lots of opportunities. Boyd, RTS, Stewart - these guys can run the ball, get to the line, then sum up the option of passingn or running in a split second, and it will come off. Its very learnable.

On the other hand, your bias assessment of Widdop as the core of our attacking woes is, as usual, laughable. You reckon the only game we showed any attack was against the Tigpies?! Interesting that we piled on points against Knights, Scum and Canberra at various stages...our was Widdop out those games too? Was he out when Benji went off early against NZ and Widdop orchestrated an ass whooping? Was it someone wise in disguise who picked apart the Bulldogs defence to put us in the game against them during the regular season. Take off your Widdop-despising glasses champ. Our attacking issue is, and has been all year, a result of poor structures and timing, which comes down to training and coaching methods.

Good point. Benji was out for 3 or 4 games last season. How was the attack in those games? Widdop, like Trent Barrett was, is a good player but like Barrett was, is a s**t main playmaker on either side of the ruck.

 

[BennyV]

Good point. Benji was out for 3 or 4 games last season. How was the attack in those games? Widdop, like Trent Barrett was, is a good player but like Barrett was, is a s**t main playmaker on either side of the ruck.

You didnt say anything about him being a 'good player but shit playmaker...you stated he was the cause of our attacking problems!

As for those 3-4 games...we've been through this countless times (how there were many factors affecting our attack in those games - half a reserve grade side, prop at halfback and so on), although I must applaud your blind hatred of Widdop, it takes loyalty to continuously play down the contribution of a player in the face of evidence!

 

[giboz71]

You didnt say anything about him being a 'good player but shit playmaker...you stated he was the cause of our attacking problems!

As for those 3-4 games...we've been through this countless times (how there were many factors affecting our attack in those games - half a reserve grade side, prop at halfback and so on), although I must applaud your blind hatred of Widdop, it takes loyalty to continuously play down the contribution of a player in the face of evidence!

The game where JDB was played at half showed exactly where our problems are.

Spine players are important as it gives the attack essentially 4 options to direct your attack. You can either :

1. Have your hooker create from dummy half
2. Have your FB chime in from the back to distribute for wingers and centres
3. Halfback to pass, run or kick from one side
4. Five Eighth to pass, run or kick from the other side

Now if you have 4 excellent spine players (say like the Cowboys, Broncos and Roosters), you need to defend against all 4 options as they are an equal threat. Why did Thurston have such a phenomenal year? Because his fellow spine players were also excellent giving him more freedom than ever before. Defences had to focus on the other 3 guys as well.

With the dragons, we don't have a creative hooker, nor a fullback who can pass. And in the Broncos game, we didn't have a proper halfback as well. We essentially had one attacking option for 80mins.

I felt so sorry for Widdop in that game, he was mercilessly targeted. Easy pickings for good side like the Broncos. But even with Marshall in the side, we're too easy to read and defend against as our hooker and fullback are not playmakers.

 

[BennyV]

The game where JDB was played at half showed exactly where our problems are.

Spine players are important as it gives the attack essentially 4 options to direct your attack. You can either :

1. Have your hooker create from dummy half
2. Have your FB chime in from the back to distribute for wingers and centres
3. Halfback to pass, run or kick from one side
4. Five Eighth to pass, run or kick from the other side

Now if you have 4 excellent spine players (say like the Cowboys, Broncos and Roosters), you need to defend against all 4 options as they are an equal threat. Why did Thurston have such a phenomenal year? Because his fellow spine players were also excellent giving him more freedom than ever before. Defences had to focus on the other 3 guys as well.

With the dragons, we don't have a creative hooker, nor a fullback who can pass. And in the Broncos game, we didn't have a proper halfback as well. We essentially had one attacking option for 80mins.

I felt so sorry for Widdop in that game, he was mercilessly targeted. Easy pickings for good side like the Broncos. But even with Marshall in the side, we're too easy to read and defend against as our hooker and fullback are not playmakers.

There are other options. You can have your halfback and five eighth combine on either side of the field. This works well when you have 2 running halves like we do, and allpws the fullback to become a power runner, not a ball distributor. For this to be effective though, you need a hooker with vision, direction and quick, accurate service, someone in the Jake Friend mould. Le'strange worked well in that role (Farrah, too, would be perfect) but Rein didnt have it in him a lot of the time.

The other option is to play your forwards as first receiver and run your 6 and 7 outside (with 1 acting as the fullback 'sweeper')...I think this was the style attempted with us, but our forwards were too obvious in their passing - there needs to be a bit of variation (hit and spin, dummy and run, etc). It works well if you have a geniune ballplaying forward like Glen Stewart, James Graham or Greg Bird, someone with quick hands who can switch between a hit up and a pass quickly. But at the moment, we dont. Need to teach guys like Cooper, JDB, McCarthy etc how to do this if we want this style to be effective.

 

[Vasilevsky]

You didnt say anything about him being a 'good player but shit playmaker...you stated he was the cause of our attacking problems!

As for those 3-4 games...we've been through this countless times (how there were many factors affecting our attack in those games - half a reserve grade side, prop at halfback and so on), although I must applaud your blind hatred of Widdop, it takes loyalty to continuously play down the contribution of a player in the face of evidence!

If I were to call someone 'a s**t playmaker' as I did, it implies that person is at least partially to blame for the poor attack. Not to blame by being a s**t main playmaker but because he tries to a main playmaker rather than taking a back seat to Benji, a real playmaker.

 

[giboz71]

There are other options. You can have your halfback and five eighth combine on either side of the field. This works well when you have 2 running halves like we do, and allpws the fullback to become a power runner, not a ball distributor. For this to be effective though, you need a hooker with vision, direction and quick, accurate service, someone in the Jake Friend mould. Le'strange worked well in that role (Farrah, too, would be perfect) but Rein didnt have it in him a lot of the time.

The other option is to play your forwards as first receiver and run your 6 and 7 outside (with 1 acting as the fullback 'sweeper')...I think this was the style attempted with us, but our forwards were too obvious in their passing - there needs to be a bit of variation (hit and spin, dummy and run, etc). It works well if you have a geniune ballplaying forward like Glen Stewart, James Graham or Greg Bird, someone with quick hands who can switch between a hit up and a pass quickly. But at the moment, we dont. Need to teach guys like Cooper, JDB, McCarthy etc how to do this if we want this style to be effective.

Yep exactly.

My point being, the good sides have multiple options to unleash their attack, whether it be a fullback, creative hooker or a ball playing forward, along with the halves.

We have Benji and Widdop and that's it, and when sides worked that out in the latter part of the year, we struggled. Too easy to defend when you always know which way your attack is going.

 

[The Nick]

If I were to call someone 'a s**t playmaker' as I did, it implies that person is at least partially to blame for the poor attack. Not to blame by being a s**t main playmaker but because he tries to a main playmaker rather than taking a back seat to Benji, a real playmaker.

Vasil, I agree with a lot of what you say, but when you come around saying things like "main playmaker" and "real playmaker" it gives the distinct impression you don't really know what you're talking about.

 

[Vasilevsky]

Vasil, I agree with a lot of what you say, but when you come around saying things like "main playmaker" and "real playmaker" it gives the distinct impression you don't really know what you're talking about.

Dominant playmaker and his sidekick like Green at the Melbourne, Morgan at the NQ, Townsend at NZ and I'm sure others if I cared to look into it more thoroughly. Those 3 I mentioned all had an outstanding season (until Johnson went down for the Warriors, after which Townsend was crap) and all because they didn't try or have to overplay their hand.

 

[BennyV]

If I were to call someone 'a s**t playmaker' as I did, it implies that person is at least partially to blame for the poor attack. Not to blame by being a s**t main playmaker but because he tries to a main playmaker rather than taking a back seat to Benji, a real playmaker.

The job of a 'real playmaker' (such as Cronk, JT and so on) is to control the game. Direct the team around the park, apply pressure, create weakness in the opposition and exploit them. Benji Marshall does a lot of things very well, but game management is not one of them! He creates some opportunities when he plys off-the-cuff football but he also butchers them. He, like Widdop, benefits from a real playmaker controlling the game. IMO they should both take a backseat to someone else controlling the game - ideally in the form of a hooker (hence why Farah would be a good signing).

 

[Vasilevsky]

The job of a 'real playmaker' (such as Cronk, JT and so on) is to control the game. Direct the team around the park, apply pressure, create weakness in the opposition and exploit them. Benji Marshall does a lot of things very well, but game management is not one of them! He creates some opportunities when he plys off-the-cuff football but he also butchers them. He, like Widdop, benefits from a real playmaker controlling the game. IMO they should both take a backseat to someone else controlling the game - ideally in the form of a hooker (hence why Farah would be a good signing).

Benji probably isn't as good as organizing and controlling the game like Cronk or Thurston. Probably though I wouldn't discount the possibility. If not Widdop could help out there. I think Widdop would be a very good player if he didn't try to overplay his hand.

He has talked constantly about 'loving getting his hands on the ball' and stuff like that. That would be great if he could actually do something with it other than kick (and he is an excellent kicker).

I didn't even think about it until someone mentioned it but Widdop reminds me a lot of Trent Barrett. Not as good a runner but a better kicker and an equally s**t dominant playmaker on either side of the ruck.

 

[BennyV]

Benji probably isn't as good as organizing and controlling the game like Cronk or Thurston. Probably though I wouldn't discount the possibility. If not Widdop could help out there. I think Widdop would be a very good player if he didn't try to overplay his hand.

He has talked constantly about 'loving getting his hands on the ball' and stuff like that. That would be great if he could actually do something with it other than kick (and he is an excellent kicker).

I didn't even think about it until someone mentioned it but Widdop reminds me a lot of Trent Barrett. Not as good a runner but a better kicker and an equally s**t dominant playmaker on either side of the ruck.

I would! He tried it at the Tigpies and it failed. He was best when Lui or Prince were directing the play.

Personally, I think Widdop would be better off moving the team around the park and letting Benji take control of the actual attacking play. Widdop is, IMO, a better game manager than Benji. Let him take charge of the set-by-set movements, gaining field position etc. He is better at deconstructing a teams defensive pattern over the course of a game, but he needs the structure to exploit them. On the other hand, Benji is better at pulling off a single play to create a try or opportunity. When he sees something and calls for the ball, he should get it, especially in the attacking zone.

Which is defined as the 'real playmaker' depends on definition. The important part is that these 2 communicate with each other, especially when we dont have a dominant, direct dummy half.

 

[Como Connection]

Benji probably isn't as good as organizing and controlling the game like Cronk or Thurston. Probably though I wouldn't discount the possibility. If not Widdop could help out there. I think Widdop would be a very good player if he didn't try to overplay his hand.

He has talked constantly about 'loving getting his hands on the ball' and stuff like that. That would be great if he could actually do something with it other than kick (and he is an excellent kicker).

I didn't even think about it until someone mentioned it but Widdop reminds me a lot of Trent Barrett. Not as good a runner but a better kicker and an equally s**t dominant playmaker on either side of the ruck.

Yeah Barrett was a very accurate kicker for sure and certain, rarely failed to miss kicking the ball straight to one of the opposition players or over the dead ball line. Over rated at club level, FACT.

 

[Vasilevsky]

Yeah Barrett was a very accurate kicker for sure and certain, rarely failed to miss kicking the ball straight to one of the opposition players or over the dead ball line. Over rated at club level, FACT.

That's why I stated Widdop is a better kicker.