next franchise round - 2011/12

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

Im not quite sure why BBC sport moving to Salford will be in the favour of Salford. It couldnt hurt, but I dont think its important as some of you seem to think

My guess would be that the hope is that the BBC would hire some locals or those that move with the BBC will support the local team, then hopefully the media coverage will be more RL friendly.

Apparently it is noticeable with most of the media based in London favouring RU.

 

[sean11evo11]

There is no way Harlequins will get kicked out, mainly because they need them to show RL is a national sport. Also they need them for a good TV deal with Sky as over 50% of Sky RL viewers are from down South. They also have a very promising youth development with a record number of kids playing RL in London
Wakefield or Castleford to go

 

[bowes]

There is no way Harlequins will get kicked out, mainly because they need them to show RL is a national sport. Also they need them for a good TV deal with Sky as over 50% of Sky RL viewers are from down South. They also have a very promising youth development with a record number of kids playing RL in London
Wakefield or Castleford to go

It's a myth that Harlequins increase the SL contract, once a London team was required but now there's not a shred of evidence that a club with 2000 fans makes any difference to Sky, while lots of people watch SL down south they are primarily watching northern sides, there's no spike when Harlequins are on.

If Harlequins are solvent they'll stay in on location and ground quality but there's no guarantee they'll still exist, David Hughes no longer wants to keep subsidising them to the same extent (£1.5million a year- the same as their turnover, £900,000 of which is Sky money) and there's no sign of anyone else wanting in. Wouldn't be surprised if they end up going to Oxford or Milton Keynes, but the RFL can't afford to subsidise a failing club by that much they'd be better off spending it on junior development and have a London Championship team if it came to it

 

[bowes]

delete double post

 

[Evil Homer]

Harlequins have some 'good news' about their future on the way apparently. Hopefully it's a change of identity and move away from the Stoop.

 

[nadera78]

If Harlequins are solvent they'll stay in on location and ground quality but there's no guarantee they'll still exist, David Hughes no longer wants to keep subsidising them to the same extent (£1.5million a year- the same as their turnover, £900,000 of which is Sky money) and there's no sign of anyone else wanting in. Wouldn't be surprised if they end up going to Oxford or Milton Keynes, but the RFL can't afford to subsidise a failing club by that much they'd be better off spending it on junior development and have a London Championship team if it came to it

All SL clubs each get £1.2million, not 900k.

David Hughes is concerned about the money he alone is putting in, but it's more about the fact that he can't bring in other investors because the majority sharholder (Ian Lenagan) wants £2million for his 65% in the club. Lenagan was given a 2 year deadline to sell these by the RFL when he bought Wigan, and that date passed a year ago. It seems as if Hughes wants the RFL to step in and force Lenagan to sell or take the shares off him. It's the only way to bring in new investors.

Hughes won't move the club outside of London, everything he's done has been focused on youth development in the city. All of that will go if the club moves miles away to Oxford or wherever.

 

[nadera78]

Harlequins have some 'good news' about their future on the way apparently. Hopefully it's a change of identity and move away from the Stoop.

I hope so too, the identity part at the very least.

If they are going to continue as they are then there's no point and they might as well pack up now and give a SL spot to Widnes or Toulouse. The club has been run ineptly for a long time now, and long-standing fans have been walking away such is the dismay at what's been going on. They need root and branch reform to the entire club, or else any changes announced on friday will merely provide a short stay of execution.

 

[bowes]

All SL clubs each get £1.2million, not 900k.

David Hughes is concerned about the money he alone is putting in, but it's more about the fact that he can't bring in other investors because the majority sharholder (Ian Lenagan) wants £2million for his 65% in the club. Lenagan was given a 2 year deadline to sell these by the RFL when he bought Wigan, and that date passed a year ago. It seems as if Hughes wants the RFL to step in and force Lenagan to sell or take the shares off him. It's the only way to bring in new investors.

Hughes won't move the club outside of London, everything he's done has been focused on youth development in the city. All of that will go if the club moves miles away to Oxford or wherever.

They must have upped it, but that suggests Harlequins only make £300,000 a year that isn't either TV money or from Hughes :shock:

SL in London doesn't work so there's no point saving the club to have it fold and reform every 3 years. Most of the junior development in the South East is Essex, Kent, Hertfordshire and East London. There's a fair bit in South London too, but only 2 junior clubs in West London where Harlequins are based and one in north London (Skolars). These aren't the successful clubs though, those outside of London or East London are the best sides and aren't run by Harlequins.

Thus moving them to Oxford won't be affecting most of the sides and it's not even remotely as far as Crusaders moved while retaining South Wales juniors. They'd of course need to have a semi-pro side in London (whether Skolars or a new West or South London side is up for debate, Skolars haven't achieved anywhere near what was hoped but are alright as a club in their own right when they find their level)

 

[nadera78]

They must have upped it, but that suggests Harlequins only make £300,000 a year that isn't either TV money or from Hughes :shock:

SL in London doesn't work so there's no point saving the club to have it fold and reform every 3 years. Most of the junior development in the South East is Essex, Kent, Hertfordshire and East London. There's a fair bit in South London too, but only 2 junior clubs in West London where Harlequins are based and one in north London (Skolars). These aren't the successful clubs though, those outside of London or East London are the best sides and aren't run by Harlequins.

Thus moving them to Oxford won't be affecting most of the sides and it's not even remotely as far as Crusaders moved while retaining South Wales juniors. They'd of course need to have a semi-pro side in London (whether Skolars or a new West or South London side is up for debate, Skolars haven't achieved anywhere near what was hoped but are alright as a club in their own right when they find their level)

The central funding went up with the new tv deals in 2010. I don't know the date of the figures you're using.

Some of your geography is a bit off (speaking as a west londoner I'd say Quins are nowhere near that part of london!) but the thrust of your point is right. The majority of the best amateur clubs are based some way away from Twickenham.

Dave Hughes funding of the community team has been focused on south / south-west london and especially on the poorer parts. He's very proud of that, so I just can't see him upping and leaving for Milton Keynes. I also doubt many fans would go with it either.

 

[AlbertRosenfeld]

If the RFL are going to bail out Quins, then obviously Quins will get a new franchise license in 2011.

Wakefield are an exhausted old club with nowhere decent to play. Castleford has a more dedicated group of fans, but the club has no modern ground and doesn't look like it will get one. Salford appears to be on the way to getting a top quality new ground.

I would hope that Wakefield and Castleford are dropped, while Widnes is promoted from the Championship, and Toulouse is invited as a foreign club ( a status which it holds, and which qualifies it for Super League as such, regardless of the anti-French fantasies of bowes). Foreign clubs don't have to meet the same criteria as British clubs in the Championship.

Catalans poor performance in 2010 has no bearing on the Toulouse application. That was a result of very poor coaching by Kevin Walters and poor performances by Australian players as much as French players.

Toulouse's team in Super League will contain 6-8 imports, which will make it a very different side from the one that now plays in the Championship.

 

[bowes]

The RFL confirmed this year that Toulouse have to meet the same criteria as other clubs and thus are ineligible. The only clubs eligible are Widnes and maybe Halifax (I don't know their turnover). The new list of rules thus makes no mention of invited overseas clubs and Toulouse will not be in SL in 2012, it's debateable if they'll be still in the Championship (I'd let them apply for the SL on the back of them meeting the SL criteria playing in the French Elite but of course based on reaching a French final or winning the Lord Derby Cup rather than the British equivalents).

Castleford and Wakefield don't need bailing out so they have to stay up if Harlequins are bailed out otherwise the whole setup could be challenged and declared illegal. A ground isn't the point of the sport. If Harlequins move to Milton Keynes or drop out then IMO they still need London based academies in the U20s and U18s, the number of London based players moving to northern clubs suggests that players would still have SL aspirations.

 

[RedVee]

The RFL confirmed this year that Toulouse have to meet the same criteria as other clubs and thus are ineligible. The only clubs eligible are Widnes and maybe Halifax (I don't know their turnover). The new list of rules thus makes no mention of invited overseas clubs and Toulouse will not be in SL in 2012, it's debateable if they'll be still in the Championship (I'd let them apply for the SL on the back of them meeting the SL criteria playing in the French Elite but of course based on reaching a French final or winning the Lord Derby Cup rather than the British equivalents).

Castleford and Wakefield don't need bailing out so they have to stay up if Harlequins are bailed out otherwise the whole setup could be challenged and declared illegal. A ground isn't the point of the sport. If Harlequins move to Milton Keynes or drop out then IMO they still need London based academies in the U20s and U18s, the number of London based players moving to northern clubs suggests that players would still have SL aspirations.

Milton Keynes? Thats outside of London from the tone of the thread - & would you call the team that or is there a regional name they would use?

Wouldn't they be better off to stay in/around London? There must be an FC with a 20K seater that would like a tenant? Watford? Charlton? I know Fulham already had a crack so I won't suggest that. Spurs? did they move to a bigger ground? what about their old ground? I'm suggesting this because it seems the Stoop is in the wrong spot for RL & the capacity seems pretty small.

 

[deluded pom?]

The RFL confirmed this year that Toulouse have to meet the same criteria as other clubs and thus are ineligible.

Didn't the RFL release some details recently that had contained a proviso for an "invited" overseas team if they wanted it to happen?

 

[WireMan]

Milton Keynes? Thats outside of London from the tone of the thread - & would you call the team that or is there a regional name they would use?

Wouldn't they be better off to stay in/around London? There must be an FC with a 20K seater that would like a tenant? Watford? Charlton? I know Fulham already had a crack so I won't suggest that. Spurs? did they move to a bigger ground? what about their old ground? I'm suggesting this because it seems the Stoop is in the wrong spot for RL & the capacity seems pretty small.

They won't leave London. They have invested money into the city not some new town miles away from it.

There is going to be an announcement tonight before the Quins / Wire match. Rumours are its to do with Lenegan having to ditch his 65% stake to the RFL and the RFL paying towards the development on youngsters in schools etc. Something they should be doing anyway. Also talk of a move and a rebranding. Something else they really need.

As for stadiums i don't think capacity is a problem! Location is the issue. They need to move to where the sport is followed more. Don't know where but i'm hopeful people in London know where.

I'd still ditch Hull KR. Most pointless team ever.

 

[bowes]

Didn't the RFL release some details recently that had contained a proviso for an "invited" overseas team if they wanted it to happen?

Yes but the rules allowing that were written before they backtracked among the understandable uproar and announced Toulouse have to meet the same rules. They've recently announced 5 minimum criteria all applicants have to make and Toulouse only meet 1 of them, and there was no mention of an external invite.

 

[bowes]

Milton Keynes? Thats outside of London from the tone of the thread - & would you call the team that or is there a regional name they would use?

Wouldn't they be better off to stay in/around London? There must be an FC with a 20K seater that would like a tenant? Watford? Charlton? I know Fulham already had a crack so I won't suggest that. Spurs? did they move to a bigger ground? what about their old ground? I'm suggesting this because it seems the Stoop is in the wrong spot for RL & the capacity seems pretty small.

An Oxford team could maybe be Thames Valley as a regional identity, but MK has an identity locally or failing that Broncos as a generic name.

Given that they can't afford the rent where they are and can only quarter fill their ground the idea they need a bigger capacity is ludicrous. There just isn't any support for pro sport in London besides soccer and Harlequins RU full stop, all the other big RU clubs have got much bigger crowds leaving London. Few of the juniors playing support Harlequins and getting them to play is easy enough, many seem to be aspiring to play for big northern clubs. Thus this isn't the obstacle it's made out to be, a £1.5million subsidy (on top of the £1.2million Sky money) for Harlequins would go much further getting juniors playing thus the RFL shouldn't take them over.

If they were to stay in London the only theoretical place that may work is East London as there's no big rugby club and most of the juniors are that direction. Leyton Orient is sadly just too small to be eligible for SL as that would have been the best bet otherwise, Charlton they've left too many times and West Ham is too big. Not sure how big Millwall is

 

[deluded pom?]

I'd still ditch Hull KR. Most pointless team ever.

That's a signature if ever there was one ;-)

 

[Jankuloski]

When KR got into the league - did they just split the fans of Hull FC or did they bring in new ones?

 

[deluded pom?]

When KR got into the league - did they just split the fans of Hull FC or did they bring in new ones?

I take it you mean the Super League? They had their own fans who numbered two to three thousand while they were in the lower division but when they were promoted all the woodworm came out. Exactly the same happened at Hull as it does at all clubs. No self respecting Hull (we don't say FC or KR we say 'Ull and Rovers) fan would go to Caravan Park for club rugby league unless Hull were playing there or it was an amateur match.

 

[Evil Homer]

When KR got into the league - did they just split the fans of Hull FC or did they bring in new ones?

They weren't 'brought in' like an expansion team, they joined the Northern Union in 1897 and historically are just as big a club as Hull FC (sorry Pom ;-)). They are never going to 'split fans', Hull KR are based in the East of the city and FC in the West and there's massive tradition associated with both clubs. KR just happened to be at a low ebb in the early days of SL, but they've always been a pretty big club.