NFT - Dumb People

[les norton]

I see where you guys are coming from, it's just that a majority of crime is committed by the smallest minority, Do we really want these 'kids' go to prsion (or teach me how to be a good crim school)? When it is quite clear that in alot of cases they wont reoffend....and about the drugs tony, thats something you cant ignore...why not focus on the real problem...sort that out and maybe they have a chance.

I know it sounds like im not focusing on the victim but surely prevention is the best method...i want to hear some solutions before the crime which is what these bleeding heart uni students are trying to accomplish.
I work with the wives and children of convicted crims....and IMO they are victims too. It's a huge issue with many victims, sometimes even the criminals themselves.

Look, i respect your opinions I just think they were tried in the 50's and we all know how great that worked out, time to start focusing on the real prob before the fact not after....which one is more victim orientated?

 

[antonius]

I see where you guys are coming from, it's just that a majority of crime is committed by the smallest minority, Do we really want these 'kids' go to prsion (or teach me how to be a good crim school)? When it is quite clear that in alot of cases they wont reoffend....and about the drugs tony, thats something you cant ignore...why not focus on the real problem...sort that out and maybe they have a chance.

I know it sounds like im not focusing on the victim but surely prevention is the best method...i want to hear some solutions before the crime which is what these bleeding heart uni students are trying to accomplish.
I work with the wives and children of convicted crims....and IMO they are victims too. It's a huge issue with many victims, sometimes even the criminals themselves.

Look, i respect your opinions I just think they were tried in the 50's and we all know how great that worked out, time to start focusing on the real prob before the fact not after....which one is more victim orientated?

Sorry Les but from where I sit, it was a lot safer in the 50's and 60's and even 70's than it is now. As for the drugs issue, there's another bleeding hearts solution that isn't working, we can't cure the problem so we'll open up somewhere where they can do it safely!!! What message does that send out. Solve the drug problem, I'll tell you how, hang the pr!cks that sell the stuff. Society has become too soft, and 90% of the reason why it's too soft is all the minority groups coming up with soft, meely mouthed excuses for the criminal elements of that society. Kids go out and steal these days to feed drug habits that are the result of the stuff being freely available because of the lack of backbone shown by governments when dealing with the low life pieces of humanity that peddle the stuff. Showing Wayne Pearce on an add saying it's uncool isn't going to stop that.

 

[roopy]

Saddam and Adolf both got the street crime under control - but rounding up all the lowlifes and killing them doesn't seem to be popular with the voters in all countries.

Oddly enough, I think society is going downhill because we are too affluent. Kids have no respect for property because it all comes too easily to them. They don't have to work hard at all.

Having said that, anyone who thinks you just need to get tough to clean up crime is seriously deluded about the problems. Like Les, I have spent a fair bit of time working with the criminal element in society, and they wear all the hosility towards them like a badge of honour. You could lock them up till they were 99 and cut off all their fingers for stealing, and they would see that as prooof that society was against them and be planning their 'revenge' for when they had a chance to get 'even'.
I have yet to meet a criminal who thinks of himself as a 'bad' person. They will all tell you that they are the victims of either society, drug addiction, the school system, circumstances or any one of a dozen different things.

Criminals are basically sad, stupid losers who see themselves as fighting back against all the bastards who are trying to grind them down, and by trying to grind them down you give them more reason to fight against you, which they do by stealing your video or beating you up when they find you alone at 2am.

No one has a solution to crime, but getting to people early and not making them think of themselves as victims of the 'system' is the best way to stop someone becoming a lifelong criminal, and jumping on them hard and early is the best way to make sure they do become lifelong losers and criminals.

 

[antonius]

Well Roop I'll have to disagree with you, I'm of the same era as you, and I was well aware of the consiquences of breaking the law when I was a kid, and while I mightn't be of the hardened criminal element, it certainly influenced me to stay on the straight and narrow. As for Saddam and Hitler. I think you are going a little over the top there, I am by no meens advocating their philosophy, what I am saying is that the punishment should fit the crime, too often today there isn't any punishment at all, and I repeat we have become too soft. It's the same with most things you set the standards you get back those standards.

 

[mrford61]

With respect to your experise in this arena Roopy, I also disagree with some of your thoughts.
I believe the relationship with "affluence" is when the gap between the haves and have nots is too far and wide and not a disregard for value as you say. In histories severe breakdowns in society leading to anarchy and civil war it was often preceded by a blatant gap in the distribution of wealth. AS we all know the worse areas of the type of crime we are discussing are also the poorer areas of any city.

I also suspect that some hardened juvenile offenders will tell a counseller what they want to hear, know how to work the sympathy angle and when they get back in their environment think it all very amusing.

Repeat offenders, particularly violence and sex offenders then as far as Im concerned, build more gaols. It may not be perfect but it beats innocent, decent people continuing to be victims.

 

[Samwise]

the solution is all too simple....mind control devices.


i'm singing in the rain, just singing in the rain, what a glorious feeling......

 

[roopy]

I also suspect that some hardened juvenile offenders will tell a counseller what they want to hear, know how to work the sympathy angle and when they get back in their environment think it all very amusing.

Isn't 'hardened juvenile' an oxymoron.

Of course they think they are very clever and think they are rorting the system when they get away easy - but they are also given the chance to decide if they want to change, instead of just being cast into the role of criminal.

I'm a very hard old system type of guy, or that is how I am seen where i work, and things were done very differently 27 years ago when i started, but, to be honest, we created a lot more problems than we ever fixed in those days. At least these days a few people come good, but mostly by never being 'brutalised' by ther prison system, which has never done anything but make people worse.

At the moment the courts will do anything they can to not send a young guy to prison, because once you do, he is lost forever really.

When you send a young guy to prison you might as well be stamping his papers 'lifelong loser'.

 

[antonius]

The thing is Roopy these days the law is seen as an ass, on the one hand we have Pauline Hanson, thrown into jail for doing less than a lot of high profile buisnessmen consider to be the norm, then on the other hand we have a recent case in Sydney where a man dealing in Heroin is given 400hrs community service?Or a guy high on drugs and Alcohol, runs over and kills a child, and is set free because he wasn't in control of his actions???? sorry my friend no amount of excuse making will convince me that is solving anything. I repeat that the add that started this discussion is a complete waste of money.

 

[mrford61]

I also suspect that some hardened juvenile offenders will tell a counseller what they want to hear, know how to work the sympathy angle and when they get back in their environment think it all very amusing.

Isn't 'hardened juvenile' an oxymoron.

Maybe, but "hardened juvenile offender" is not, not by a long shot.

 

[Terminator]

I see where you guys are coming from, it's just that a majority of crime is committed by the smallest minority, Do we really want these 'kids' go to prsion (or teach me how to be a good crim school)? When it is quite clear that in alot of cases they wont reoffend....and about the drugs tony, thats something you cant ignore...why not focus on the real problem...sort that out and maybe they have a chance.

I know it sounds like im not focusing on the victim but surely prevention is the best method...i want to hear some solutions before the crime which is what these bleeding heart uni students are trying to accomplish.
I work with the wives and children of convicted crims....and IMO they are victims too. It's a huge issue with many victims, sometimes even the criminals themselves.

Look, i respect your opinions I just think they were tried in the 50's and we all know how great that worked out, time to start focusing on the real prob before the fact not after....which one is more victim orientated?

Oh please, its idiotic thinking like this that is half the problem, no disrespect Les but your go soft approach is turning our society into a complete and utter shithole.
Those minority of society as you dismiss them, can do a lot of damage if not bought straight into line.
I have two cousins in the police force and they are close to giving up, because they are tired of risking their lives to see some softcock politically correct judge let the repeat offender walk away yet again.
Jail is the only place for these people, if they want to keep butting heads with the law(well the sad PC excuse we have for it now anyway) then they will loose.
Instead of feeling sad for the poor misunderstood lowlives in our society, how about taking a good look at the damage they are causing to innocent hardworking people, who most of the time are just trying to raise a family and getting taxed to within an inch of their lives by a system that puts more emphasis on caring for the criminal scum of our society than standing up for them.
Hang the useless criminal parasites quick, and good riddance to the lot of them, they will not be missed at all.

 

[les norton]

I also suspect that some hardened juvenile offenders will tell a counseller what they want to hear, know how to work the sympathy angle and when they get back in their environment think it all very amusing.

Repeat offenders, particularly violence and sex offenders then as far as Im concerned, build more gaols. It may not be perfect but it beats innocent, decent people continuing to be victims.

OK I have a fair bit to say so i'll start with you mrford....firstly i think your underestimating counsellors/psychologist etc, i cant see many juvi's pulling the wool over to many experienced counselors/psychs...They are professionals. how many offenders do you think they see, i think they would of seen it all plus a little bit we prob couldnt imagine.

Secondly...you say build more gaols...who do you think will be in these gaols...kids, who B & E etc, u think they deserve that. Do you have any idea how easy it is for a good kid to get caught up in illegal activities..it's simple. and thats how good kids go bad. I hear you scoff but it's true most of them are confused good kids who have made a mistakes. I dont know about you but i may i repeat may have engaged in a few illegal activities in my time. My life would of been pretty different if i had ended up in juvi hall. Of course they need punishing but harden men dont last to long inside, surely there is a better, more effective way.

Tony - i know it was alot safer in those days..that wasnt what i meant....when the shit hit the fan with drugs etc in the 60's 70's these methods didnt work back then, didnt work in the 80's or 90's, when should we try something new? I havent seen the wayne pierce add...and ur probably right it's prob crap but chucking kids in gaol isnt the answer either. Drugs are always going to around, big business and all that, they are as bad as terrorist organisations in the sense that you cut a head off another grows straight back... so i think a bigger answer is needed for that one, My mum swears that legalisation is the answer plus prescriptions etc, i dont know if i agree with that but it does solve somethings. The stuff you said about the messed up cases with the obvisous punishment fit the crime problems are like you said terrible. but thats a whole another post

Roopy - you said it best...get em' young and scare (dont know if thats the right word seeing im trying to be politically correct and all ;-) ) I had to read a book on male rape....true accounts. That book should be required reading in all youth detention home. Most scarey thing i've ever read and it is never going to be a possibility for me...it would have to scare the crap out of them.

Well I think thats it's from me for a while anyways...thank god i hear you say.

 

[mrford61]

Fair enough Les,
We may just have to agree to disagree. I,m not looking to butt heads with anyone.
I dont scoff at how easy it is for basicly good kids to get mixed up in crime, trust me on how well I can vouch for that. And I am certainly not advocating zero tolerance. But just answer me two questions and I will drop the matter.
How many chances is enough for juvenile offenders that go on to be young adult offenders and how many innocent victims should pay with their belongings,well being, or lives to assist in a REPEAT offenders rehabilitation.

 

[antonius]

Les Nowhere have I said throw the kids in jail (though some of them should be) There is a difference between punishment (my original words) and NO punishment at all (which these days is more often than not) I am talking about the light punishments dished out for crime in general, In particular the tendency these days to make excuses for for crimes commited while under the effects of Drugs or alchohol saying that the perpitrator wasn't responsible for their actions, that is crap they are the ones that choose to take the drugs/alchohol in the first place. The punishment for serious crime Drug peddling, Rape, Murder, home invasion should be toughened and made mandetory. I stick by my claim that drug peddlers in particular should be hung, I have seen (as no doubt have others here) the effects on People and families these leeches have. As for young offenders Mrford says it, where do you stop the soft line on young offenders? 1 crime 2 or 3, how many? and what about the effect these crimes have on the victims? surely they count also? As for the scare them line, what is scary about 20hrs community service?

 

[Doctor]

Les Nowhere have I said throw the kids in jail (though some of them should be) There is a difference between punishment (my original words) and NO punishment at all (which these days is more often than not) I am talking about the light punishments dished out for crime in general, In particular the tendency these days to make excuses for for crimes commited while under the effects of Drugs or alchohol saying that the perpitrator wasn't responsible for their actions, that is crap they are the ones that choose to take the drugs/alchohol in the first place. The punishment for serious crime Drug peddling, Rape, Murder, home invasion should be toughened and made mandetory. I stick by my claim that drug peddlers in particular should be hung, I have seen (as no doubt have others here) the effects on People and families these leeches have. As for young offenders Mrford says it, where do you stop the soft line on young offenders? 1 crime 2 or 3, how many? and what about the effect these crimes have on the victims? surely they count also? As for the scare them line, what is scary about 20hrs community service?

It seems that alcohol, drug or other forms of substance abuse is the ticket to a lighter sentence. This really raises many moral questions for our society such as; why is it that people are effectively rewarded for having addictions or at least given more convenient terms in their sentences.

Gaols are no place for the faint-hearted. There are some tough people in there, and young people, even in juvenile detention centres, are subjected to harassment and forms of abuse when inside. I wouldn't wish that sort of treatment on anyone.

Perhaps, for younger criminals, there needs to be greater emphasis on prevention rather than handing out sentences at the other end. There will always be criminals, as there will always be forms of evil in this world. The challenge for people is to work out why people do what they do. Some may demand attention, others may need money for drugs, others crave acceptance and therefore will do anything to please their social crowd.

So if it is drug problems fuelling crime, then why are they taking drugs. Are they taking drugs because they are feeling depressed or is it considered cool to take drugs. Have they been abused? Are they abusing others because they themselves were abused.

There are deeper problems associated with the crimes we see on the surface. It seems convenient to label anyone who breaks the law as criminals who should be locked up. But why do they do it? Do their genes dictate who they are, what they do and what they become, or is it a result of past issues that they have never spoken about.

The Black Eyed Peas ask: "Where is the Love?". Perhaps that is the problem, perhaps we need to start getting deeper into people's problems and wading through the yuck to get to the heart of the problem - they feel lonely, depressed, unloved, abused.

It is far too convenient to label someone 'evil' without working out why that may be the case.

 

[antonius]

I see where your coming from Sam, my question is why does the drug problem seem to be in plague proportions these days? with no signs of it getting any better. Sure people have it tough these days, and some may turn to these outlets, but it's no different to days gone by, people had it tough then as well. I think it has a lot to do with the values people have in place these days. You ask a very good question there "Where is the love?"

 

[les norton]

I dont think you guys know the stats etc on repeat offending juvi's....a small percetage actually go on to be life long criminals. My whole point of this little debate we have going is that if you take the extreme tough line and chuck em' behind bars that percentage will sky rocket. And i think you will all agree that is a terrible outcome.

Mrford...i understand what your saying...it reminds me of something i was asked once...if you could guarentee that all the 'bad' folk would remain behind bars would you sacrifice 5 good people for the sake of human error....or would you make sure no good people were behind bars but let 5 baddies out on the streets?

Not sure of the relevance but it certainly makes you think. ;-) Are we willing to sacrifice some good kids...ahh theres the relevance..

 

[mrford61]

Mornin Les,
I know I said I would shut up about this but quite frankly I am enjoying this discussion, especially as it is remaining quite civil.

Good point about the 5 good people or the 5 bad people but the fact remains that the offenders get to make choices. The innocent victim does not.
There is such a broad range in the severity of crimes for any of our points of view to be relative to all, but I will always believe that one victim is too many when it comes to repeat offenders.

 

[Hell Bitch]

As I am guessing that I am a fair bit younger than most of you, my opinion may count for very little. However I would like to add it anyway.

I believe that there are two types of criminals (there are probably more but I put them into these catergories)

1. Those who offend because they know they can

2. Those who offend because of deeper darker reasons


In a way, everyone's opinion holds a bit of merit towards the solution, it just depends on what type of criminal you are dealing with. When it comes to category one, I agree with the busting heads theory, with category two, I agree that some people need help and counselling.

I don't know if what I say is going to come across how i want it too, and if I have in any way offended any one it was not on purpose. My opinion may be clouded by my ignorance, I don't know, all I know is that there are some people out there who offend only because they know they can. I personally know people who do things only because they know they will get away with it. I was always taught that if you do something wrong, you get punished, people these days know how lax the law is now and don't have the same morals.

No matter of what is said, overall I agree with mrford, how many times can an offender repeat his crimes before something is done, if punishment isn't working, try counselling and vise versa.

What it all comes down to is this, the world is changing, peoples morals and standards towards life are changing, and there is nothing that we can do about it except get ourselves into a tizzy discussing something that we cannot stop.

"...and that's all I have to say about that."

 

[Terminator]

Welcome Hell Cat, love your tag, I'm all for the 'old hard knee in the nuts don't be a naughty boy etc' this got the police a lot more respect from juveniles and crims etc than the PC joke we got protecting us :lol: today, we can stop it, well what as much as we can, you can only do so much, but everyones contribution helps.

 

[les norton]

Mornin Les,
I know I said I would shut up about this but quite frankly I am enjoying this discussion, especially as it is remaining quite civil.

Good point about the 5 good people or the 5 bad people but the fact remains that the offenders get to make choices. The innocent victim does not.
There is such a broad range in the severity of crimes for any of our points of view to be relative to all, but I will always believe that one victim is too many when it comes to repeat offenders.

I'm actually enjoying it too. I dont think we have seen a civil debate around here for ages. Hey Mrford I notice you didnt really answer my question...good dodge ;-) Surely you have to weigh the cost benefit ratio...if that makes any sense at all. I mean the criminals i'm talking about are not violent or "evil"...And although there are victims, I honestly dont think taking the hard line is worth it. Im not trying to belittle what they go through I still stand by the arguement i dont think it's worth ruining their lives

Hell Bitch- welcome...Thanks for adding to our little discussion, a fresh view is always welcoming here...i hope we hear more from you. I agree with somethings you have said, i just would add a few more categories to the two interesting ones you've got. We get ourselves in tizzies ( ) all the time around here...May not be able to change many things but it's fun to argue about.