Nick Livermore speaks gibberish about expansion

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Again you are using media quotes by the same people who are justifiably keeping every bid alive, by saying things like "each bid could run an NRL team"
They are keeping ALL their options open..
All the quotes you've posted by anyone on the arlc are suspect because of that reason.
The Simon Fordham quote has no bearing on expansion at all, he does not have any votes on the arlc, nor will his input drive any decision on where the arlc will or should pick.. asking any broadcaster their thoughts will just receive a more of the same approach, more content in the same rugby-league heartlands are exactly what channel 9 want, wonder why they've never spoken about perth or NZ2, as there is no money in it for them...the broadcasters wishes are not in the best interests of the game..
And you're right, I'm playing dumb coz your not getting it, everyone has an opinion yes, but its about a non bais opinion based on whats physically happening, not political quotes by key figure heads within the media or the game, who are basically contradicting themselves, politis mentions Rockhampton, but also says we need to be in every state. How does that all happen when abdo is saying the past bids in SEQ are rightly ready to take on a possible licence, and PVL saying everything from perf, nz2 to pasifika and its 17million population

I have no doubt the ARLC is keeping all options open and won't make a decision until 2025 or later.

Our game is in the fortunate position of having at least three options. However, I'm not convinced the ARLC will do anything too risky due to the game's poor history with expansion. Let's look at the history of expansion under the NSWRL/ARL.

1982

Illawarra Steelers

Defunct due to financial problems forcing it to merge with St George Dragons in 1999.

Canberra Raiders

Stuggled in their early years. Defected to Super League in 1995 due to problems with the NSWRL. A mid-sized club generating strong revenue from gaming machines and real estate. Generates more revenue from football operations than the weakest Sydney clubs.

1988

Brisbane Broncos

Defected to Super League in 1995 due to problems with NSWRL and QRL. We're self-sufficient from day one and are the biggest and richest rugby league club in the world.

Newcastle Knights

Given preferential treatment by the NSWRL because it was a financial basket case. Financial problems still plague the club.

Gold Coast-Tweed Giants

Financial problems from day one until it became the Gold Coast Chargers. Pushed out due to News Ltd takeover of the game in 1998.

1995

Auckland Warriors

Had to sign with News Ltd to stay afloat. Went bust in 1999.

North Queensland Cowboys

Saddled with $800k worth of travel and accommodation expenses for all teams that travelled to Townsville. Had to take out a loan to build a stadium at Willows. The cost of the loan, funding oppositions' travel and accommodation expenses and selling season tickets for too little bankrupted the club midway through the season. Had no choice but to sign with News Ltd to survive. Had trouble in the early 2000s and required further assistance from News Ltd. Sold in the mid-2000s and now generates more revenue from football operations than every club except Brisbane Broncos and Redcliffe Dolphins.

South Queensland Crushers

Went bust in 1997. News Ltd were very hostile towards them.

Western Reds

Similar story to the Cowboys with regards to covering the travel and accommodation costs of all teams that played in Perth. Had to sign with News Ltd to survive. Were cut by News Ltd at the end of 1997.

1997

Adelaide Rams

Created by News Ltd in 1997 because Super League needed a 10th team. Booted by News Ltd at the end of 1998.

Hunter Mariners

Created by News Ltd in 1997 because Knights didn't defect. Booted at end of 1997.

1998

Melbourne Storm

Created by News Ltd. Propped up with players from the Perth Reds and Hunter Mariners. News Ltd pumped $70m into the venture between 1998 and 2012. Another $30m pumped into them by ARLC between 2012 and 2018. Are now profitable.

2007

Gold Coast Titans

Started off well. Hurt by global financial crisis, Centre of Excellence debacle and poor onfield results contributing to lower than anticipated attendances in 2011. Went bust TWICE and had to be bailed out by ARLC.

2023

Redcliffe Dolphins

Provided a $30m bank guarantee over their first five years. Have a strong revenue stream from gaming machines and a shopping centre that they own.​

The only expansion clubs that have been sustainable from the start are the Brisbane Broncos and Redcliffe Dolphins. Both from Brisbane.

V'landys said expansion teams won't be considered unless they provide a strong business case.

PNG/Pasifika will rely on government funding for eternity.

That leaves Brisbane Tigers and Perth as the only viable bids.

 

[Pippen94]

I have no doubt the ARLC is keeping all options open and won't make a decision until 2025 or later.

Our game is in the fortunate position of having at least three options. I'm not convinced the ARLC will do anything too risky due to the game's poor history with expansion. Let's look at the history of expansion under the NSWRL/ARL

1982

Illawarra Steelers

Defunct due to financial problems forcing it to merge with St George Dragons in 1999.

Canberra Raiders

Stuggled in their early years. Defected to Super League in 1995 due to problems with the NSWRL.

1988

Brisbane Broncos

Defected to Super League in 1995 due to problems with NSWRL and QRL. We're self-sufficient from day one and are the biggest and richest rugby league club in the world.

Newcastle Knights

Given preferential treatment by the NSWRL because it was a financial basket case. Financial problems still plague the club.

Gold Coast-Tweed Giants

Financial problems from day one until it became the Gold Coast Chargers. Pushed out due to News Ltd takeover of the game in 1998.

1995

Auckland Warriors

Had to sign with News Ltd to stay afloat. Went bust in 1999.

North Queensland Cowboys

Saddled with $800k worth of travel and accommodation expenses for all teams that travelled to Townsville. Had to take out a loan to build a stadium at Willows. The cost of the loan, funding oppositions' travel and accommodation expenses and selling season tickets for too little bankrupted the club midway through the season. Had no choice but to sign with News Ltd to survive.

South Queensland Crushers

Went bust in 1997. News Ltd were very hostile towards them.

Western Reds

Similar story to the Cowboys with regards to covering the travel and accommodation costs of all teams that played in Perth. Had to sign with News Ltd to survive. Were cut by News Ltd at the end of 1997.

1997

Adelaide Rams

Created by News Ltd in 1997 because Super League needed a 10th team. Booted by News Ltd at the end of 1998 because they cost too much to run and provided little in return.

Hunter Mariners

Created by News Ltd in 1997 because Knights didn't defect. Booted at end of 1997.

1998

Melbourne Storm

Created by News Ltd. Propped up with players from the Perth Reds and Hunter Mariners. News Ltd pumped $70m into the venture between 1998 and 2012. Another $30m pumped into them by ARLC between 2012 and 2018.

2007

Gold Coast Titans

Started off well. Hurt by global financial crisis, Centre of Excellence debacle and poor onfield results contributing to lower than anticipated attendances in 2011. Went bust TWICE and had to be bailed out by ARLC.

2023

Redcliffe Dolphins

Provided a $30m bank guarantee over their first five years. Have a strong revenue stream from pokies and shopping centre that they own

The only expansion clubs that have been sustainable from the start are the Brisbane Broncos and Redcliffe Dolphins.

Bris 3 then

 

[MugaB]

I have no doubt the ARLC is keeping all options open and won't make a decision until 2025 or later.

Our game is in the fortunate position of having at least three options. I'm not convinced the ARLC will do anything too risky due to the game's poor history with expansion. Let's look at the history of expansion under the NSWRL/ARL

1982

Illawarra Steelers

Defunct due to financial problems forcing it to merge with St George Dragons in 1999.

Canberra Raiders

Stuggled in their early years. Defected to Super League in 1995 due to problems with the NSWRL.

1988

Brisbane Broncos

Defected to Super League in 1995 due to problems with NSWRL and QRL. We're self-sufficient from day one and are the biggest and richest rugby league club in the world.

Newcastle Knights

Given preferential treatment by the NSWRL because it was a financial basket case. Financial problems still plague the club.

Gold Coast-Tweed Giants

Financial problems from day one until it became the Gold Coast Chargers. Pushed out due to News Ltd takeover of the game in 1998.

1995

Auckland Warriors

Had to sign with News Ltd to stay afloat. Went bust in 1999.

North Queensland Cowboys

Saddled with $800k worth of travel and accommodation expenses for all teams that travelled to Townsville. Had to take out a loan to build a stadium at Willows. The cost of the loan, funding oppositions' travel and accommodation expenses and selling season tickets for too little bankrupted the club midway through the season. Had no choice but to sign with News Ltd to survive.

South Queensland Crushers

Went bust in 1997. News Ltd were very hostile towards them.

Western Reds

Similar story to the Cowboys with regards to covering the travel and accommodation costs of all teams that played in Perth. Had to sign with News Ltd to survive. Were cut by News Ltd at the end of 1997.

1997

Adelaide Rams

Created by News Ltd in 1997 because Super League needed a 10th team. Booted by News Ltd at the end of 1998 because they cost too much to run and provided little in return.

Hunter Mariners

Created by News Ltd in 1997 because Knights didn't defect. Booted at end of 1997.

1998

Melbourne Storm

Created by News Ltd. Propped up with players from the Perth Reds and Hunter Mariners. News Ltd pumped $70m into the venture between 1998 and 2012. Another $30m pumped into them by ARLC between 2012 and 2018.

2007

Gold Coast Titans

Started off well. Hurt by global financial crisis, Centre of Excellence debacle and poor onfield results contributing to lower than anticipated attendances in 2011. Went bust TWICE and had to be bailed out by ARLC.

2023

Redcliffe Dolphins

Provided a $30m bank guarantee over their first five years. Have a strong revenue stream from pokies and shopping centre that they own

The only expansion clubs that have been sustainable from the start are the Brisbane Broncos and Redcliffe Dolphins.

Ok but whats that got to do with PVL and the ARLC?
they aren't looking at any of these areas except for probably WA again, and most are resurrected via titans and dolphins or represented by another team.
Doesn't mean theyll be doomed to repeat the same mistakes again..
The ARLC have streamlined the money nessesary to run a club for all clubs, and have put caps on the staff too, so nobody should be going under like the previous expansions, travel is paid for so issues surrounding that are gone, so perths woes are over if they were to ever rejoin, you have to realise that game back in the 80s and 90s didn't cope well with expansion due to running costs, and competitiveness versus other areas to keep those expansion areas viable, nobody hung around for gold coast to come good, if you are always perennials for the spoon, you wont last, nowadays its not a big deal coz your not relying on merch and tix sales to stay afloat

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Bris 3 then

I agree.

The Redcliffe Dolphins were required to invest money at the junior level to get the 17th licence. I'd imagine the same requirement will be forced upon the the team that gets the 18th licence.

I think it's time the Melbourne Storm were forced to pull their finger out and fund junior development in Melbourne. They've sat on their arse and bludged off Queensland, NSW, NZ and PNG for decades.

 

[Perth Red]

I agree.

The Redcliffe Dolphins were required to invest money at the junior level to get the 17th licence. I'd imagine the same requirement will be forced upon the the team that gets the 18th licence.

I think it's time the Melbourne Storm were forced to pull their finger out and fund junior development in Melbourne. They've sat on their arse and bludged off Queensland, NSW, NZ and PNG for decades.

It’s like you dont understand how jnr participation and nrl elite pathway development programs work!

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

It’s like you dont understand how jnr participation and nrl elite pathway development programs work!

The Redcliffe Dolphins are spending $2m per annum on junior pathways and women's rugby league in the Moreton Bay region.

The Dolphins have agreed to invest $1m per annum on grassroots rugby league and pathways as well as an additional $1m per annum on women’s rugby league pathways and development.

‘Exciting day’: NRL locks in 17th team

More games, more rounds and more byes will be coming to the NRL in 2023 after confirmation of a 17th team, the first new club since 2007.

thewest.com.au

Are the Melbourne Storm doing this?

If so, then how much are they spending and for how long have they done it?

If not, why not?

The Brisbane Tigers could do something similar for Logan, Ipswich and southern Brisbane. It would help more juniors from Brisbane progress to the NRL.

 

[The Great Dane]

The Redcliffe Dolphins are spending $2m per annum on junior pathways and women's rugby league in the Moreton Bay region.

The Dolphins have agreed to invest $1m per annum on grassroots rugby league and pathways as well as an additional $1m per annum on women’s rugby league pathways and development.​

​

‘Exciting day’: NRL locks in 17th team

More games, more rounds and more byes will be coming to the NRL in 2023 after confirmation of a 17th team, the first new club since 2007.

thewest.com.au

Are the Melbourne Storm doing this?

If so, then how much are they spending and for how long have they done it?

If not, why not?

The Brisbane Tigers could do something similar for Logan, Ipswich and southern Brisbane. It would help more juniors from Brisbane progress to the NRL.

I'd be highly surprised if the Storm weren't investing a similar amount into juniors, as that's little more than chump change in reality.

I'd also point out that most of that money wouldn't make it out of Redcliffe's elite pathways, and that they'd largely be "investing" that money into themselves not the grassroots and RL community more broadly. The only things that have changed is the amount of money going into the programs (producing for an NRL side requires a higher capacity and is more expensive, so they would have increased their spend anyway), and instead of the leagues club giving the money directly to the juniors they're handing it to the NRL club whom then hand it onto the juniors club, effectively adding an unnecessary middle man.

It sounds really impressive when you tart it up for a puff piece , but it's really not that impressive if you think about it for more than a second.

 

[Canard]

Storm looks to the future with Academy launch

A new wave of young rugby league talent has hit the training field in Melbourne with the official launch of the Storm Academy supported by Storm’s major partner RedZed and official partner Jaybro.

www.melbournestorm.com.au

 

[Perth Red]

The Redcliffe Dolphins are spending $2m per annum on junior pathways and women's rugby league in the Moreton Bay region.

The Dolphins have agreed to invest $1m per annum on grassroots rugby league and pathways as well as an additional $1m per annum on women’s rugby league pathways and development.​

​

‘Exciting day’: NRL locks in 17th team

More games, more rounds and more byes will be coming to the NRL in 2023 after confirmation of a 17th team, the first new club since 2007.

thewest.com.au

Are the Melbourne Storm doing this?

If so, then how much are they spending and for how long have they done it?

If not, why not?

The Brisbane Tigers could do something similar for Logan, Ipswich and southern Brisbane. It would help more juniors from Brisbane progress to the NRL.

Redcliffe LC maybe, who've been doing it for years. Notice they didnt say an 'additional' million $'s.
And most of that will be going to upping the quality of their U16, U18 and U21 elite pathway program's, not to getting more kids playing RL in the region. Panthers dont spend one cent on grassroots, as an example. Only big money on élite programs, which is their job.

Storm spend the same, probably more with their significant funding to Falcons, on elite pathways as most. Its a fallacy they dont. They debut more nrl first graders than nearly any club.
what they dont have is 10k kids playing RL in Victoria to pick from, and thats on the ARLC whose job that is.

 

[mongoose]

The reason I'm unpopular is because I go against the flow and state uncomfortable truths that other members don't want to hear.

It's the same reason @Perth Red is harassed. People cannot accept the uncomfortable truths he states about the game.

You're a wuss who tries to appeal to everyone. On the one hand you defend over saturation in Sydney, then argue against the same thing happening in Brisbane to appease the expansionists. If you were consistent you would argue against over saturation in both heartland cities or accept that Brisbane should have equal representation.

You get extremely emotional when anyone dares to criticise the Raiders.




"Speculation" is when an unfounded source makes a claim that is at odds with the governing body and broadcasters. I cite statements made by the governing body and broadcasters because their opinion will determine who gets the 18th licence.

You state News Ltd won't allow a third Brisbane team. I've only seen one article stating the Broncos are uneasy about a third team, but it didn't cite any sources. When Broncos coach Kevin Walters was quizzed on the Brisbane Tigers' bid to be the third team he said bring them in. We've got the Head of Strategy WWOS Simon Fordham saying Ch9 believes Queensland can support a fifth team and are supportive of growing the game in the Sunshine State. These are not "throwaway lines". They're statements from the people who will have input into who gets the 18th licence.

Was it a "throwaway line" when V'landys said if there's a 17th team it'll be from Brisbane?

I recall you arguing like a demented wanker that Perth was a legitimate chance of getting the 17th licence. You dismissed a Roy Masters article that said a source claimed Brisbane were certainties of getting the 17th licence unless Twiggy Forrest threw millions of dollars at the ARLC.

Looks like that "throw away line" from Roy Masters turned out to be right, hey?

I've been dismissive of the PNG bid because it is surrounded with uncertainties and destined to fail. Relying on $25m per annum in foreign aid from the Aus Gov just to fund the team is very risky. Politicians aren't known for sticking with their promises. We just had the Vic Premier cancel the 2026 Commonwealth Games despite signing a contract to stage them last year. Alberta pulled out of running for the 2030 Commonwealth Games. The only reason Albanese is pushing this Pasifika idea is because China wants to build a military base in the South Pacific. Albanese wants it to be a Pasifika team that plays matches in PNG, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. The PNG Gov wants it to be a PNG team that plays its matches in Port Moresby. So we've already got a conflict of interest between the PNG consortium and the Aus Gov.

The likelihood of the RLPA agreeing to this team is very low because it would jeopardise player safety. Mackay Cutters threatened to boycott travelling to Port Moresby due to safety concerns. In 1994 a mob of angry locals swarmed to Port Moresby airport to ambush Cowboys officials when news broke that a PNG player based in the Townsville Rugby League was declared unfit to play for the Cowboys in 1995. What do you think will happen if a popular Papuan New Guinea player is dropped from a PNG/Pasifika team?

Neither Ch9 nor News Ltd benefit from having to travel to Port Moresby to cover games.

But V'landys and the ARLC have indicated that PNG will be strongly considered so basically you won't take them for their word when its PNG or Perth but you do when they talk up another Brisbane club lol

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

But V'landys and the ARLC have indicated that PNG will be strongly considered so basically you won't take them for their word when its PNG or Perth but you do when they talk up another Brisbane club lol

You couldn't be further from the truth. I've said Perth is a strong contender for the 18th licence and potentially the favourite for it on numerous occasions.

The problems with PNG's bid is it has many hurdles that stand in its way. None of these hurdles can be overcome any time soon, either. Hence the need to base the team in Cairns and link it with Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. I suspect the ARLC is just paying lip service to the proposal in case New Zealand 2 or Perth fizzle out. So yeah, they're being "strongly considered", but the serious flaws in their bid will make them the least likely to get in ahead of Brisbane Tigers and Perth.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Redcliffe LC maybe, who've been doing it for years. Notice they didnt say an 'additional' million $'s.
And most of that will be going to upping the quality of their U16, U18 and U21 elite pathway program's, not to getting more kids playing RL in the region. Panthers dont spend one cent on grassroots, as an example. Only big money on élite programs, which is their job.

Storm spend the same, probably more with their significant funding to Falcons, on elite pathways as most. Its a fallacy they dont. They debut more nrl first graders than nearly any club.
what they dont have is 10k kids playing RL in Victoria to pick from, and thats on the ARLC whose job that is.

The ARLC should be doing more to make the game more accessible to children in schools and fund junior clubs. The fact they don't is the main reason people dismiss expansion to cities like Adelaide and Perth. We know the ARLC isn't going to fund expansion into Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth the same way AwFuL does with Brisbane and Sydney.

Out of Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth, the only city that has the potential to raise enough money on its own to develop a significant quantity of home grown juniors is Perth. It's why I'm an advocate of a Perth-based side but have written off Adelaide.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Storm looks to the future with Academy launch

A new wave of young rugby league talent has hit the training field in Melbourne with the official launch of the Storm Academy supported by Storm’s major partner RedZed and official partner Jaybro.

www.melbournestorm.com.au

Only three of the players in the academy are from Victoria. Eight are from Queensland with two of those eight originally from NZ and one from NT. One is from NSW.

 

[Canard]

I'd be surprised if the Dolphins are 100% Qlders.

 

[Pippen94]

I'd be surprised if the Dolphins are 100% Qlders.

Yeah, they're all victorians

 

[Perth Red]

Only three of the players in the academy are from Victoria. Eight are from Queensland with two of those eight originally from NZ and one from NT. One is from NSW.

From little acorns. Again the problem for Storm is NRLVIC, ie ARLC, is not doing its job in getting enough kids playing RL in Victoria for them to be able to take a decent number of talented 16 year olds out of the Vic system and into this elite pathway. Until ARLC gets its sht together they will have to keep relying on established Rl areas for talent.

 

[Canard]

To try to create an equivalency between the Storm (the only professional RL club in an entire state) and the Dolphins who have been around for 80 years in a RL stronghold is disingenuous or just plain ignorant.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I'd be surprised if the Dolphins are 100% Qlders.

More than three of them would be Queenslanders.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

From little acorns. Again the problem for Storm is NRLVIC, ie ARLC, is not doing its job in getting enough kids playing RL in Victoria for them to be able to take a decent number of talented 16 year olds out of the Vic system and into this elite pathway. Until ARLC gets its sht together they will have to keep relying on established Rl areas for talent.

Maybe Victorians aren't interested in playing rugby league?

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

To try to create an equivalency between the Storm (the only professional RL club in an entire state) and the Dolphins who have been around for 80 years in a RL stronghold is disingenuous or just plain ignorant.

Victoria has 25 rugby league clubs and 9,023 registered players.

Why aren't they producing more NRL players?

Storm have invested $23m on developing the game since 2005. Despite that investment, bugger all talent has come out of the VRL.

This is the problem with expanding into fumbleball states that have a marginal interest in rugby league. They will never produce a long line of talent that can cut it in the NRL. The Storm have spent the last 25 years poaching the best juniors from Brisbane.

What really irks me is hypocritical expansionists on this forum believe Brisbane should be relegated to developing talent to prop up costly expansion teams in Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth that will never be anything but niche at best in a market that's hostile to rugby league. They then whinge when some one from Brisbane advocates for a third Brisbane team to cater for the huge amount of talent produced in the greater Brisbane region. The ingratitude and entitlement is sickening and goes a long way to explaining why so many people are against expanding into new markets.

You chucked a hissyfit about Thomas Gilbert returning to Brisbane to play for the Dolphins. You went on a delusional fear mongering rant about a third Brisbane team being the final straw that prevents the Cowboys from fielding a competitive team. Despite going down this route out of self-interest for the Cowboys, you've mocked the Ipswich Jets and Brisbane Tigers in this thread for speaking about fumbleball eating into SEQ. You are a selfish hypocrite and your anti-Brisbane stance is all based around your biased support for the Cowboys.