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Non Footy Chat Thread II

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
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45,295
Yep.

Look, the RBA classes it as an extreme scenario. I'd say 20% is a more realistic estimate and in 3 years we might see unemployment back in the 5s (although high 5s) and the market might have bottomed out.

Even if you were looking to sell and upgrade, if that wasn't going to happen for 10 years anyways then you're not ruined.

And think of it this way, even if there is a major crash - your $650k house (or whatever) that drops by 40% loses $260k, whereas the $1m house loses $400k. There's opportunity for upgrading if you're financially solid.

And let's not forget that this is the one thing Australian governments don't want to happen - they will throw billions and billions and billions at housing to stop or lessen the crash. Morrison is a big old conservative but he doesn't want to be the PM that saw the Australian housing market crash underneath him.

It depends a lot on whether they ( the Morrison government ) decide that austerity is still the go to answer for fixing the problem of rising deficits,

Or whether they finally concede that a deficit is merely a political problem of their own making, and it's a poor response to punish the populous for it.

The quandary for them is that it is the former upon which they they have perpetuated the myth of being better economic managers for the last two or three decades, and it is the latter that presents it's self as a great big stick with which the opposition will surely use to beat them about the head.
 

parra pete

Referee
Messages
20,683
Yeah, yeah, I know, YOU'VE heard it...
(My favourite joke of all time)
A Tale of Two Prawns
Far away in the tropical waters of the Caribbean two prawns were swimming around in the sea.
One was called Justin and the other called Christian. The prawns were constantly being harassed and threatened by sharks that inhabited the area.
Finally one day Justin said to Christian, "I'm fed up with being a
prawn. I wish I was a shark, and then I wouldn't have any worries about being eaten."
A large mysterious Cod appeared and said, "Your wish is granted." Lo and behold, Justin turned into a shark.
Horrified, Christian immediately swam away, afraid of being eaten by his old mate.
Time passed and Justin found life as a shark boring and lonely. All his old mates simply swam away whenever he came close. Justin didn't realize that his new menacing appearance was the
cause of his sad plight.
While swimming alone one day, he saw the mysterious Cod again and he thought perhaps the mysterious fish could change him back into a prawn.
He approached the Cod and begged to be changed back, and, lo and behold, he found himself turned back into a prawn.
With tears of joy in his tiny little eyes Justin swam back to his friends and bought them all a cocktail.
Looking around the gathering at the reef he realized he couldn't see his old pal. "Where's Christian?" he asked.
"He's at home, still distraught that his best friend changed sides to the enemy & became a shark," came the reply.
Eager to put things right again and end the mutual pain and torture, he set off to Christian's abode.
As he opened the coral gate, memories came flooding back. He banged on the door and shouted: "It's me, Justin, your old friend, come out and see me again."
Christian replied, "No way man,you'll eat me. You're now a shark, the enemy and I'll not be tricked into being your dinner."
Justin cried back "No, I'm not. That was the old me. I've changed."
"I've found Cod -. I'm a Prawn again Christian."
 
Messages
11,677
It depends a lot on whether they ( the Morrison government ) decide that austerity is still the go to answer for fixing the problem of rising deficits,

Or whether they finally concede that a deficit is merely a political problem of their own making, and it's a poor response to punish the populous for it.

The quandary for them is that it is the former upon which they they have perpetuated the myth of being better economic managers for the last two or three decades, and it is the latter that presents it's self as a great big stick with which the opposition will surely use to beat them about the head.

Surely any government in this country is more scared of overseeing the crash of the fabled Aussie housing market than anything else?
 

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,295
Surely any government in this country is more scared of overseeing the crash of the fabled Aussie housing market than anything else?

You'd think so, but hey, there's always room for exceptions, whether they be for ideologically driven policy direction, or sheer incompetence. Or even both.

The economy wasn't exactly doing as it was told before Covid, and that's at a time when most of the rest of the western world was experiencing fairly solid growth. Yet if you remember all the government was concentrating on publicly was delivering a surplus they'd already claimed to be delivered, despite the fact that as we now know beyond any doubt a forecast is never set in stone.

As it happens, that rock solid, guaranteed, already delivered surplus will become our biggest deficit ever, although that title may well only last a year.

Now I don't think that they'll be prepared to lock in an even bigger deficit next year without a fight, there's a lot of rusted on ideological belief in the coalition that a surplus is the holy grail of economic management, and if you're so economically illiterate as to believe such a thing, then you're incompetent enough to implement policy that damages the economy in other areas in pursuit of same.

ATM we have about as an artificially propped up economy as we would ever have, what with Job Keeper keeping literally millions of people off Job Seeker, which it's self has been inflated and is encouraging spending, not to mention the tens of billions that have been drawn out super prematurely, a lot of which is simply propping up retail spending.

I absolutely f**king guarantee the will pull an austerity at some point, provided of course they survive in government long enough to do so. Remember also we have some fairly generous tax cuts locked in by legislation coming in 2022 and particularly 2024, They're gonna have to go to the next election either dumping that as policy, or explaining how the f**k they are gonna keep that and show at least a semi believable path to surplus. That's is a rod for backs of their own making.

Meanwhile there's a f**k ton of people on mortgage holidays whose debt is only going up, not away, and some point that too will have to be reigned in and that money then won't be available to be spent.

It'll take some very careful management, or maybe a pile of dumb luck to avoid the worst effects of recession over an extended period of time, unless of course you're wedded to the V shaped recovery theory, in which case simply ignore everything I've posted.
 
Messages
11,677
You'd think so, but hey, there's always room for exceptions, whether they be for ideologically driven policy direction, or sheer incompetence. Or even both.

The economy wasn't exactly doing as it was told before Covid, and that's at a time when most of the rest of the western world was experiencing fairly solid growth. Yet if you remember all the government was concentrating on publicly was delivering a surplus they'd already claimed to be delivered, despite the fact that as we now know beyond any doubt a forecast is never set in stone.

As it happens, that rock solid, guaranteed, already delivered surplus will become our biggest deficit ever, although that title may well only last a year.

Now I don't think that they'll be prepared to lock in an even bigger deficit next year without a fight, there's a lot of rusted on ideological belief in the coalition that a surplus is the holy grail of economic management, and if you're so economically illiterate as to believe such a thing, then you're incompetent enough to implement policy that damages the economy in other areas in pursuit of same.

ATM we have about as an artificially propped up economy as we would ever have, what with Job Keeper keeping literally millions of people off Job Seeker, which it's self has been inflated and is encouraging spending, not to mention the tens of billions that have been drawn out super prematurely, a lot of which is simply propping up retail spending.

I absolutely f**king guarantee the will pull an austerity at some point, provided of course they survive in government long enough to do so. Remember also we have some fairly generous tax cuts locked in by legislation coming in 2022 and particularly 2024, They're gonna have to go to the next election either dumping that as policy, or explaining how the f**k they are gonna keep that and show at least a semi believable path to surplus. That's is a rod for backs of their own making.

Meanwhile there's a f**k ton of people on mortgage holidays whose debt is only going up, not away, and some point that too will have to be reigned in and that money then won't be available to be spent.

It'll take some very careful management, or maybe a pile of dumb luck to avoid the worst effects of recession over an extended period of time, unless of course you're wedded to the V shaped recovery theory, in which case simply ignore everything I've posted.

Absolutely agree with all of that. I was calling a house price fall before COVID, which I got slammed for here. Our economy was going this way no matter what. COVID just kicked it in the guts earlier than expected.

I still have this feeling, though, that the government would rather run more deficits (because it's ok, now, right? Right? You know...COVID...) and hope that those keep the economy on its feet until things improve and that this path gives the housing market the best chance of survival.

Once again, being the government that saw the collapse of the housing market (which, along with digging shit out of the ground, is the facade our "wealth" is based on) seems to me to be the biggest fear in Australian politics. I know there were other reasons on top of this, but don't forget that the beloved Johnny Howard got smoked partially because of the belief that he couldn't control interest rates anymore...

My view is that the one thing Australians care about more than anything else is being able to live "The Instagram Life" and housing and the fake wealth that comes with it are pivotal to that delusion.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
92,064
if you're so economically illiterate as to believe such a thing,
Economic 'literacy' here refers to believing a theory that has never been tested at scale in the real world. It's rhetoric from charlatans with nothing to lose.

Like footy fans blaming every loss on their pet fixation, economists and other soft-science academics never have to face the consequences of their shit predictions and a posteriori narratives. But politicians do, so they're the ones who get to make the decisions. At the moment Coronavirus has given them a free pass for shit to fall apart, and propping up businesses (rather than giving the money directly to workers to do f**k all) at least stops productivity from falling off a cliff. At least in theory.

But ultimately it is voters who decide whether they think it's desirable for their government to owe massive amounts of money. For it to be rationalised away by 'well they can print as much as they want so their debt is meaningless' just seems like a dirty trick that makes no sense. Why would anyone continue to lend such a government money?
 
Messages
11,677
But ultimately it is voters who decide whether they think it's desirable for their government to owe massive amounts of money. For it to be rationalised away by 'well they can print as much as they want so their debt is meaningless' just seems like a dirty trick that makes no sense. Why would anyone continue to lend such a government money?

I get the feeling we may see the results of this in the US soon enough, but it's different for them in some ways because they are the reserve currency.

I mean, if interest rates are so low and there's more money then the interest gained is even lower in value, so why would anyone want to keep grabbing US dollars?

Is there a chance that countries might start to prefer to hold their gold as a base because the US dollar is becoming effectively worthless due to oversupply? It might seem like a crazy idea but I think the chances of a return to a gold standard are increasing...

Australia, though? It's about the message - we can borrow now because interest is so low and we have such low debt (comparatively). If you sell that message and then actually put the money to work (and what that means changes with each person's personal priorities) then you have a chance to avoid backlash in the short term...

In theory, anyways. Whether people can actually understand it if it's put to them is another thing altogether...
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
92,064
I get the feeling we may see the results of this in the US soon enough, but it's different for them in some ways because they are the reserve currency.

I mean, if interest rates are so low and there's more money then the interest gained is even lower in value, so why would anyone want to keep grabbing US dollars?

Is there a chance that countries might start to prefer to hold their gold as a base because the US dollar is becoming effectively worthless due to oversupply? It might seem like a crazy idea but I think the chances of a return to a gold standard are increasing...

Australia, though? It's about the message - we can borrow now because interest is so low and we have such low debt (comparatively). If you sell that message and then actually put the money to work (and what that means changes with each person's personal priorities) then you have a chance to avoid backlash in the short term...

In theory, anyways. Whether people can actually understand it if it's put to them is another thing altogether...
A surprisingly lucid post from the King of the Jews.
 

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,295
Economic 'literacy' here refers to believing a theory that has never been tested at scale in the real world. It's rhetoric from charlatans with nothing to lose.

You wot mate?

How many surpluses / deficits do you think we've had since federation?

Here's a clue...........

AO-Chart1-160514.png


https://www.firstlinks.com.au/budget-time-labor-v-liberal-fiscal-discipline

Now if you pay a little attention, you'll see net debt peaked after world war two at over 120% of GDP, yet by the time Whitlam came to power, we'd had two teeny pissant surpluses, and thirty odd deficits, yet somehow net debt had shrunk to around 10% of GDP.

You've got 120 odd f**king years of real world examples that this so called "unproven theory" you refer to works.

Is that not a big enough sample size so as to be relevant?

Like footy fans blaming every loss on their pet fixation, economists and other soft-science academics never have to face the consequences of their shit predictions and a posteriori narratives. But politicians do, so they're the ones who get to make the decisions. At the moment Coronavirus has given them a free pass for shit to fall apart, and propping up businesses (rather than giving the money directly to workers to do f**k all) at least stops productivity from falling off a cliff. At least in theory.

But ultimately it is voters who decide whether they think it's desirable for their government to owe massive amounts of money. For it to be rationalised away by 'well they can print as much as they want so their debt is meaningless' just seems like a dirty trick that makes no sense. Why would anyone continue to lend such a government money?

Um, well they do, and at pretty f**king awesome interest rates at the moment to boot.

And the reason they do, is because they're pretty damn certain they're gonna be paid. Amazing shit eh?

Mate, honestly, you've been sold a dud with this whole debt and deficit thing, it simply does not bear up to any real scrutiny.

I think from memory the ratio is 101:17 deficits:to surpluses since federation, it obviously isn't a problem for that to have been the case, why would that change?
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
63,210
Absolutely agree with all of that. I was calling a house price fall before COVID, which I got slammed for here. Our economy was going this way no matter what. COVID just kicked it in the guts earlier than expected.

I still have this feeling, though, that the government would rather run more deficits (because it's ok, now, right? Right? You know...COVID...) and hope that those keep the economy on its feet until things improve and that this path gives the housing market the best chance of survival.

Once again, being the government that saw the collapse of the housing market (which, along with digging shit out of the ground, is the facade our "wealth" is based on) seems to me to be the biggest fear in Australian politics. I know there were other reasons on top of this, but don't forget that the beloved Johnny Howard got smoked partially because of the belief that he couldn't control interest rates anymore...

My view is that the one thing Australians care about more than anything else is being able to live "The Instagram Life" and housing and the fake wealth that comes with it are pivotal to that delusion.


I read an article about if house prices fell what would happen. And it wasn't positive for just those with properties.
Unlike Germany a lot of investment houses are own by individuals hereunder not corporations. Prices drop and rent drops. That takes more money out of economy and less spending. It went into a lot of details. I do not remember it all but the general message was it wont benefit many people that may think it will.
 

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,295
I get the feeling we may see the results of this in the US soon enough, but it's different for them in some ways because they are the reserve currency.

I mean, if interest rates are so low and there's more money then the interest gained is even lower in value, so why would anyone want to keep grabbing US dollars?

Is there a chance that countries might start to prefer to hold their gold as a base because the US dollar is becoming effectively worthless due to oversupply? It might seem like a crazy idea but I think the chances of a return to a gold standard are increasing...

Australia, though? It's about the message - we can borrow now because interest is so low and we have such low debt (comparatively). If you sell that message and then actually put the money to work (and what that means changes with each person's personal priorities) then you have a chance to avoid backlash in the short term...

In theory, anyways. Whether people can actually understand it if it's put to them is another thing altogether...

The US has been doing it for over a decade though, and their economy has just been growing, and growing. Our dollar was turning to shit pre-covid, we were down to the low sixties against the USD from memory, and it's only been the last six months or so that it's corrected back to around it's historical norm.

None of it really makes a great deal of sense, other than that the US is busy propping up assets like there's no f**king tomorrow, and the markets are all like why the f**k not. Buy me some stonks. I mean you look at it, and all you can see is an illusion.

As for the message here, well that's the problem isn't it. The government has welded it's self to the idea that deficits = bad, they've literally spent decades selling that idea to the point where otherwise intelligent people won't even question it, they truly believe that shit. Yeah they've got a bit of a free pass cause 'rona, and let's face it, when it's your pockets getting lined you aint gonna merkin up about all that much.

But gee, it's a f**king giant about face, and a decent sized shit sandwich to have to swallow.
 

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