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NRL rebellion: Rugby league clubs want CEO Dave Smith gone or threaten to leave comp

DiegoNT

First Grade
Messages
9,378
Someone thinks that there are only 16 clubs that need support

But you also have 26 Tier 2 clubs

6 State Leagues

SOO and Rep teams at all levels Oz to state teams like U20s to schoolboys

Lets remember TV rights included TV of many many other games not just NRL FG

Its all a finally balanced thing. Yes the nrl needs to spread the money around the various state leagues, clubs junior systems, promoting the game, internationals etc.
There are alot of areas in rugby leageu that need support, there's a lot of areas sticking there hands out for money, the nrl clubs are actually the ones making the most of the nrls money. About 95% of the tv money coming in is down to the nrl comp with its 16 teams, and origin. The other 5% comes from internationals, second tier comps etc. I'm not sure how much the origin gets, but the clubs get back 51% of that money ( it used be 66% 5 years ago). Even with the prop up grants for struggling clubs the nrl is making alot more money of the clubs then it's giving back. That money that the 16 clubs are making the nrl is helping to fund the state leagues, the promotion and expansion of the game, and funding that's being planned for grass roots ( that's without mentioning the money the nrl clubs are re-investing into their junior systems).
 

elbusto

Coach
Messages
15,803
Someone thinks that there are only 16 clubs that need support

But you also have 26 Tier 2 clubs

6 State Leagues

SOO and Rep teams at all levels Oz to state teams like U20s to schoolboys

Lets remember TV rights included TV of many many other games not just NRL FG
five state leagues. The Tasmanian comp is dead
 
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Cumberland Throw

First Grade
Messages
6,553
Someone thinks that there are only 16 clubs that need support

But you also have 26 Tier 2 clubs

6 State Leagues

SOO and Rep teams at all levels Oz to state teams like U20s to schoolboys

Lets remember TV rights included TV of many many other games not just NRL FG


Who are the 26 tier 2 clubs that need support;

Must be those strugglers on skid row like ;

Mounties - Wentworthville LC - Wyong LC - North Sydney LC -

Who combined have a declared profit of over $50M a year, that has to be re-invested in community activities...
 

DiegoNT

First Grade
Messages
9,378
How about the weak clubs just fall away, or is that too progressive for our comp?

There's too much charity in our game.

Lets talk about cutting the 4 struggling clubs we have at the moment. Titans, dragons, tigers, Knights.
They get 8 million each from the nrl in grants, that's 32 million each . They all get 4.5 million on top of that for emergency fund. So by cutting these clubs, the nrl saves 50 million dollars right?
The nrl currently get 250 million a year for its tv rights the way they are.
Well with 12 clubs the nrl only has 6 games a week to sell to sell. Thats 3/4 of waht we have now. So that 250 drops by a quarter- 62.5 million. You also no longer have teams in big markets like the hunter region, illawarra region, gold coast-tweed region and campbelltown- west sydney region. So the price is going to drop further. Pay tv loses exclusive matches means the value drops again.
With those 4 teams cut, you run the risk of losing about 500, 000 fans ( being conservative, that's 125, 000 each). Those fans range from full members with every piece of merchandise, to the extreme casuals. Now if those fans all spent 20 bucks each on the nrl this year that's another 10m immediately gone. You also effect the junior production lines in those areas. So instead of saving money, the nrl well be set to lose money by cutting those 4 teams, and not only that they lose money to invest back into the game.

Now you might say replace those 4 struggling teams with new teams. Well that's the 32m going back into club grants. Because the teams will take some time and investment to get off the ground and need time to build a fan base, these teams will probably initially cost the nrl 10m a year each for their first few years at least. You still have the problem of potential losing the fans, tv market and junior bases of the 4 struggling teams you cut.

It may be cheaper to help and save these struggling clubs then it is to cut those clubs and replace them. Yes they should be running that way already, but you got to remember the games only recently gone from the amateur era, the super league era and the destructive news/gallop era, it's only recently that the nrl has begin to be run to its true potential . People use souths as an example of a club being run professionally, but just ten years ago it was run as a joke. If we were cut in 05 we would never of had the chance to run at our full potential. All the current 16 clubs still have that potential, so now that the nrl is getting its act together it would be criminal to cut a club now and not give it a chance in a more prosperous era
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,766
Its all a finally balanced thing. Yes the nrl needs to spread the money around the various state leagues, clubs junior systems, promoting the game, internationals etc.
There are alot of areas in rugby leageu that need support, there's a lot of areas sticking there hands out for money, the nrl clubs are actually the ones making the most of the nrls money. About 95% of the tv money coming in is down to the nrl comp with its 16 teams, and origin. The other 5% comes from internationals, second tier comps etc. I'm not sure how much the origin gets, but the clubs get back 51% of that money ( it used be 66% 5 years ago). Even with the prop up grants for struggling clubs the nrl is making alot more money of the clubs then it's giving back. That money that the 16 clubs are making the nrl is helping to fund the state leagues, the promotion and expansion of the game, and funding that's being planned for grass roots ( that's without mentioning the money the nrl clubs are re-investing into their junior systems).

Stop talking %s talk real dollars. And in that time NRL clubs are receiving more than double what they got before and its going up another 50% in the next deal

SOO alone is well more than 5% more like 30% of the TV deal

If you want to talk %s - NRL clubs only make up less than 2% of the RL clubs the ARLC are responsiblr for

You dont want to get to the stupid situation like Soccer

Where junior registrations are triple that of RL just to fund the national body
 

DiegoNT

First Grade
Messages
9,378
Stop talking %s talk real dollars. And in that time NRL clubs are receiving more than double what they got before and its going up another 50% in the next deal

SOO alone is well more than 5% more like 30% of the TV deal

If you want to talk %s - NRL clubs only make up less than 2% of the RL clubs the ARLC are responsiblr for

You dont want to get to the stupid situation like Soccer

Where junior registrations are triple that of RL just to fund the national body

Yes they've doubled the money they've given to the clubs, because the clubs have tripled the money the nrl recieves from the tv deal (from 83 million a year to 250 million a year).

It's the nrl clubs that make the money for the nrl to spread around. TV companies don't pay 250 million a year because they love rugby league. They pay that much so they can broadcasts broncos into Brisbane, so they can broadcasts at george and easts and rabbitohs. So they can broadcast stars like Thurston, inglis and rts. This is what makes the nrl its money, so of course they need to keep spending money on it keeping it strong. It's what makes it money. Without it you don't have the millions to spend in other areas. That's what's wrong with soccer, their elite comp doesn't make enough money for it to be able spread the money around.

Neglect the nrl comp, let teams die, have broncos win every second year because they are the richest best run team (the man utd of rugby league) and watch the tv dollars drop significantly, then there'd be no money whatsoever for the nrl to spread around
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,137
To some degree you are correct Diego but not every club is equal value to the tv deal so a bit simplistic to suggest all the NRL clubs are responsible for the income and as said the NRL is responsible for funding the whole game. It has stated its intention to increase its revenue outside of the tv deal and when you add in the club grants plus the infrastructure needed to run just the NRL competition then it doesn't leave a lot of the tv deal for everything else. It's a fine balancing act but just giving clubs more and more money in the grant has proven not to actually Change anything for them. Gould himself admitted that it wouldn't help. You want to bet that the $3million hand out on offer to sign the club agreement will disappear and do very little for most clubs to improve them long term? The last hand out didn't seem to make much difference.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,137
The Panthers group paid out 16.6million in salarys or the football Club?

The football club. The accounts I linked are just the football clubs figures not the leagues club.

So they paid $10million to non playing salaries and $6.1mill to players. People arguing clubs need more NRL grant need to take a look at the annual reports of those clubs that produce them. There are significant expenditures and some sobering low revenue streams in those accounts. Clubs are bleating they are making losses and wanting the NRL to solve their mismanagement or just give them more money to solve the over saturation of the market which is leading to lower crowds, memberships, merchandise sales and sponsorships per club than they need to bring in.

Re clubs fanbases, suggesting clubs have around 300-500k fans per club seems a very long stretch when you consider what evidence we have. Attendances and memberships are obvious. If you look at tv ratings most all Sydney games attract 300-350k viewers in Sydney. Even the biggest clubs when they play each other in prime time viewing on fta only draw sub 450k. Now these figures are made up of club fanbase A + club fanbase B + neutrals. How big the neutrals audience is can only be speculated. I'd be surprised if most sydney clubs have more than 75-100k tv fans on avg.
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,766
Yes they've doubled the money they've given to the clubs, because the clubs have tripled the money the nrl recieves from the tv deal (from 83 million a year to 250 million a year).

It's the nrl clubs that make the money for the nrl to spread around. TV companies don't pay 250 million a year because they love rugby league. They pay that much so they can broadcasts broncos into Brisbane, so they can broadcasts at george and easts and rabbitohs. So they can broadcast stars like Thurston, inglis and rts. This is what makes the nrl its money, so of course they need to keep spending money on it keeping it strong. It's what makes it money. Without it you don't have the millions to spend in other areas. That's what's wrong with soccer, their elite comp doesn't make enough money for it to be able spread the money around.

Neglect the nrl comp, let teams die, have broncos win every second year because they are the richest best run team (the man utd of rugby league) and watch the tv dollars drop significantly, then there'd be no money whatsoever for the nrl to spread around

Diego

The PRODUCT RL is worth triple

The Product RL comes at a cost that begins at u6s and finishes withe Australian RL team at the top

NRL FG clubs are part of the product

We saw what can happen in the SL War when clubs get greedy and the damage to the RL product and the fan base

There is so much still to repair because of this damage done by greedy clubs
 

DiegoNT

First Grade
Messages
9,378
Diego

The PRODUCT RL is worth triple

The Product RL comes at a cost that begins at u6s and finishes withe Australian RL team at the top

NRL FG clubs are part of the product

We saw what can happen in the SL War when clubs get greedy and the damage to the RL product and the fan base

There is so much still to repair because of this damage done by greedy clubs

So tv companies pay 250m a year for under 6s?
Do tv companies pay 250m a year for bush footy?
Do tv companies pay 250m a year for development officers?
Do tv companies pay 250m a year for the state leagues?
Your right, the product of rugby league comes at a cost, the nrl has to pay for these things somehow.
The nrl makes almost all its money from the nrl and state of origin.
So of course money has to go back into those 2 things to keep it strong otherwise the nrl will have no money for the other things.
There's a reason australian soccer and union are struggling at lower levels, there's a reason why soccer's licence fees are triple, and why union clubs have to pay extra fees to the aru to keep it afloat, and that's because it's elite competitions don't make enough money to filter down to the lower levels.
 

pHyR3

Juniors
Messages
955
The football club. The accounts I linked are just the football clubs figures not the leagues club.

So they paid $10million to non playing salaries and $6.1mill to players. People arguing clubs need more NRL grant need to take a look at the annual reports of those clubs that produce them. There are significant expenditures and some sobering low revenue streams in those accounts. Clubs are bleating they are making losses and wanting the NRL to solve their mismanagement or just give them more money to solve the over saturation of the market which is leading to lower crowds, memberships, merchandise sales and sponsorships per club than they need to bring in.

Re clubs fanbases, suggesting clubs have around 300-500k fans per club seems a very long stretch when you consider what evidence we have. Attendances and memberships are obvious. If you look at tv ratings most all Sydney games attract 300-350k viewers in Sydney. Even the biggest clubs when they play each other in prime time viewing on fta only draw sub 450k. Now these figures are made up of club fanbase A + club fanbase B + neutrals. How big the neutrals audience is can only be speculated. I'd be surprised if most sydney clubs have more than 75-100k tv fans on avg.

where are you getting these figures from???

Friday night footy usually pulls in close to a MILLION people on FTA incl. regionals.

break it up 50/50, so 500k per team. say 40% neutrals. still leaves an avg audience of 300k of fans per team watching on a given friday. and id hazard a guess and say that you can still be a fan of a game and miss every 2nd friday night footy match.

add in radio figures and crowd figures, i dont see 300k on average for a nsw team to be a stretch.

7.5 million people, 10 clubs. 3 million people are fans of a club.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,137
where are you getting these figures from???

Friday night footy usually pulls in close to a MILLION people on FTA incl. regionals.

break it up 50/50, so 500k per team. say 40% neutrals. still leaves an avg audience of 300k of fans per team watching on a given friday. and id hazard a guess and say that you can still be a fan of a game and miss every 2nd friday night footy match.

add in radio figures and crowd figures, i dont see 300k on average for a nsw team to be a stretch.

7.5 million people, 10 clubs. 3 million people are fans of a club.

I'm taking the figures from the city the team is from ie two Sydney teams playing each other to a tv audience in Sydney of 300-425k, sure there may be some of the interstate and regional audience following the clubs involved but I suspect, and can't be proved either way other than looking at other stats such as membership social media followers etc, that most of them will be neutrals.

Fans are not just people in the street who say "yeh I follow parra" but people who actually contribute someway. There's not 3 million NRL fans in NSW lol, if there was SOO figures would be double the size they are now!
 
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siv

First Grade
Messages
6,766
So tv companies pay 250m a year for under 6s?
Do tv companies pay 250m a year for bush footy?
Do tv companies pay 250m a year for development officers?
Do tv companies pay 250m a year for the state leagues?
Your right, the product of rugby league comes at a cost, the nrl has to pay for these things somehow.
The nrl makes almost all its money from the nrl and state of origin.
So of course money has to go back into those 2 things to keep it strong otherwise the nrl will have no money for the other things.
There's a reason australian soccer and union are struggling at lower levels, there's a reason why soccer's licence fees are triple, and why union clubs have to pay extra fees to the aru to keep it afloat, and that's because it's elite competitions don't make enough money to filter down to the lower levels.

The answer is indirectly yes

Stronger feeder structures develops a strong FG player

And yes Fox did broadcast U16s U18s GFs

Schoolboys U17s season
U20s season
NSW and QLD Cup games all season
Australian v NZ u20s
U20 SOO
2 Pacific Tests
U18 RLWC 9s

All of these games are not NRL FG fixtures

But without money being diverted to grass roots RL these products struggle to develop NRL FG players

I would also like to see a grant paid to the APRLC to help develop RL in the Pacific basin
 

elbusto

Coach
Messages
15,803
where are you getting these figures from???

Friday night footy usually pulls in close to a MILLION people on FTA incl. regionals.

break it up 50/50, so 500k per team. say 40% neutrals. still leaves an avg audience of 300k of fans per team watching on a given friday. and id hazard a guess and say that you can still be a fan of a game and miss every 2nd friday night footy match.

add in radio figures and crowd figures, i dont see 300k on average for a nsw team to be a stretch.

7.5 million people, 10 clubs. 3 million people are fans of a club.
Red's natural approach to everything is negative. Must be a result of being a pom.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,137
See post below pHyR3! I come on here to discuss things not just bag off posters who actually contribute to discussions, shame others can't do the same. It would make the board more enjoyable.

Re docs post he missed my point re exclusivity and price of product, not interested in derailing the thread into a faux EPL v NRL discussion.

Back to the topic of the thread, sigh. The reason fanbase is important to get a handle on relates directly to sustainability if clubs are going to get a balance between self generated revenue and NRL grant. Looking at the annual reports available the game day revenue, merchandise sales, income from membership etc make for Interesting reading and are clear areas clubs could improve with a bigger or more engaged fanbase.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,137
Looking at tne clubs needing NRL bail out at the moment:
St's their revenue has dropped significantly from the leagues club contribution, from $5mill to less than $1mill over last few years which is probably a significant reason for their current revenue problem. Interestingly their membership revenue has also dropped significantly in last 3 years.

Wests, Balmain not being able to contribute the $2million plus a disengaged fanbase due to tne club dramas seem to be the big issues

Newcastle, not sure why they struggle so much? Big fanbase, good stadium and one town team. Probably still trying to get decent management after tinkler debacle.

Titans, Searle over capitalised and lost tne faith of the fanbase. Also struggled to get decent sponsorship plrtfolio in recent times.

According tne clubs 14 of them have lost $30million last year so seems there are many problems across the clubs at the moment.
 

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-cent-of-player-payments-20151116-gl03xm.html

Clubs ask ARL to increase funding to 130 per cent of player payments

Date
November 16, 2015 - 8:00PM

Brad Walter
Sports Reporter

NRL clubs want their annual grants increased to 130 per cent of the salary cap and changes to the constitution to give them a greater say in the make-up of the ARL Commission.

Those are the key points in a list of demands drawn up ahead of a potentially explosive meeting on Wednesday between a delegation of club bosses and the NRL's negotiating team, headed by ARL chairman John Grant.

The clubs, who are set to report financial losses of $40 million between them for the 2015 season, believe the only way they can become stronger is through an increased share of the NRL's revenue and want a greater say on how it is distributed. Only South Sydney and Brisbane recorded a profit without leagues club funding, and one Sydney club is rumoured to have suffered a $4 million deficit.

With the delegation of club chairmen, comprising Bart Campbell (Storm), Nick Politis (Roosters), Ray Dib (Bulldogs), Scott Penn (Sea Eagles) and Warriors chief executive Jim Doyle, leaving their last meeting with Grant, ARL commissioner Tony McGrath and NRL head of club services Tony Crawford three weeks ago frustrated that negotiations were going backwards, the clubs have devised a list of demands, which include:

annual grants of 130 per cent of the amount for total player payments;
a 30 per cent share of NRL profits;
a review of the ARLC constitution;
NRL licences for an indefinite period;
an independent review of the NRL's costs, and;
a say in approving the NRL's budget;
Review of the ratchet clauses that link increases in the salary cap to increases in player wages;
A vehicle to share digital rights revenue based on the model used in Major League Baseball;
$3 million offered by the NRL but with no conditions attached.

Grant recently offered each club an additional $1.5 million per season over the next two years and while most are believed to be satisfied with that deal, they want their annual grant to be set at 130 per cent of the salary cap.

Should the funding demands of the clubs be met, most expect they could at least break even and the NRL would no longer have to prop up Gold Coast and Newcastle.

If that was to occur next season, the grant would need to increase from $7 million to $8.85 million as the 2016 salary cap will rise to $6.8 million.

The $48 million offered to the clubs comes from a $50 million advance on the $925 million free-to-air television deal with Channel Nine, which is due to start in 2018.

However, the clubs are unhappy the offer from Grant is dependent on them signing new participation agreements otherwise the $1.5 million increase per season in 2016 and 2017 would need to be repaid as a loan.

If the clubs don't feel that progress is being made after Wednesday's meeting, they are expected to increase pressure on Grant and may seek to remove him as a commissioner - a task that would require a vote of 14 of the 26 ARLC members, comprised of representatives of the 16 clubs, the NSWRL, QRL and the eight commissioners.

However, the clubs have no say in the appointment of commissioners and there is a growing belief that the constitution is no longer in the best interests of the game, as it virtually eliminates anyone who has had an involvement in the NRL, such as former ARL chief executive John Quayle or Harvey Norman CEO Katie Page.

Agreed to at a time when the game was desperate to be rid of News Corp, the eligibility rules mean that the NRL is controlled by a board with little rugby league knowledge and some feel that they are out-dated.

It has even been suggested that the clubs should have a representative on the ARL Commission.

At the least, clubs want a greater say in the appointment of commissioners as the strongest bargaining chip they currently hold is the refusal to sign participation agreements to play in the NRL from 2018, although the Titans, Knights, Wests Tigers and St George Illawarra have already done so.

Campbell, who is the spokesman for the clubs, told Fairfax Media after a recent phone hook-up of club chairmen that the 16 clubs were unified in their determination to gain a better deal.

"Ultimately every club is committed and unified on the course of action we are taking from here and pleasingly we are continuing to be sensible, collegiate and remain as one in our thinking, which is good," Campbell said. "We have got a meeting on November 18 and ultimately that will either prove fruitful or fruitless, and that will dictate the action from there."
 

elbusto

Coach
Messages
15,803
Just wondering whether some of the nrl clubs are too stupid to realise that this is the moment we have news limited by the balls and a bit of patience is required
 

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