NRL state of play: NRLW Magic Round, expansion and pathways

[The Great Dane]

Qrl were against the introduction of the dolphins in the nrl

for much of its life the arlc has been qld centric

even vlandys added the dolphins

The Dolphins wouldn't have been in a position to join the NRL at all if the NRL had had a reserve grade since 98.

That would have made the Qld Cup irrelevant and would have seen reduced investment into QRL and the Qld Cup clubs, and the Dolphins, a long with the rest of the Qld Cup sides, would either be juniors clubs or wouldn't exist at all.

 

[TheRam]

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!!! I would not trust the ARLC in Sydney with the QRL's responsibilities far away from Sydney in regional Queensland.

They shouldn't have veto power nor should the clubs. Sporting organizations need to be run autocratically not democratically. Democracies don't work well in sport.

There are way to many self interests that will always prevent the best and hardest decisions to be made for the game as a whole. Which is exactly what we has and have been getting to this point right now. Just to get the most basic and simplest ideas and decisions over the line it is taking years if ever to get them done.

One obvious example is real and binding KPI's that clubs MUST meet or risk huge penalties or even relocation or explosion(under the most server circumstances) if not met, especially if it is repeatedly happening over and over again. And each clubs KPI's are different and tailor made to suit that club current abilities, resources and wealth. Not all clubs are made equal and therefore the KPI's should allow/represent that. Handing out guaranteed salary grants without strings/conditions/KPI's attached is insane and holding the game back big time. Who voted for that I wonder? Hmmm...

 

[yakstorm]

When you say 270 teams in Melbourne does that mean if we multiply it by 17 for the number of players needed(just a rough estimate) we have 4590 players(hopefully mostly juniors) in Melbourne. Is that how it works? I get that some teams may have less players and some more, just a rough calculation.

Your maths is pretty close to the money. NRL Victoria confirmed in May it had passed 4,500 registered club players and considering the Sunraysia competition only kicked off last week and Limestone Coast generally doesn't start until September, and there are also the school competition numbers (there was a Victorian pool for the first time in the Schoolboys Cup), it will bump it up a bit higher.

 

[Wb1234]

The Dolphins wouldn't have been in a position to join the NRL at all if the NRL had had a reserve grade since 98.

That would have made the Qld Cup irrelevant and would have seen reduced investment into QRL and the Qld Cup clubs, and the Dolphins, a long with the rest of the Qld Cup sides, would either be juniors clubs or wouldn't exist at all.

Third tier competition

 

[Pneuma]

That's fantastic. Imagine if it just keeps growing and we get around 3-5k women playing it over the next 10 in years Victoria? It would do wonders for the game.

When you say 270 teams in Melbourne does that mean if we multiply it by 17 for the number of players needed(just a rough estimate) we have 4590 players(hopefully mostly juniors) in Melbourne. Is that how it works? I get that some teams may have less players and some more, just a rough calculation.

Also do you know how much they spend on junior development in Victoria alone? And how long has this kind of structure and similar numbers been going on? Is this new?

I'm just curious to know because thus far the Storm haven't produced virtually any players of note or numbers really from Victoria. I hope this is all relatively new and we will start to see Melbournian kids filtering into their NRL team and not just the Maori or Islander background ones that are already traditional league playing.

We need to convert a decent percentage of non traditional league fans and other sports players to league to be truly successful. Junior development is the key. If we can get kids playing from all ethnicity and across all socio-economic backgrounds then the success of the game in Victoria and prosperity would be assured not to mention what it would do for the game via ratings and attendances and TV rights to say the least. Growing the pie in Victoria is a must. We need to be doing all we can to assure its success. The ARLC/NRL need to be involved to in a big way. The Strom at this point can't be doing it alone. It is a massive job to get it where it needs to be.

Senior teams total 27 or 10%. Rest are under 18s or lower to under 6s. Biggest growth is in u der 10s to under 16s where there are grades with up to 14 teams. They are producing juniors through to jersey flegg for example where over half the team are from their junior ranks. Not sure how much is spent on development. Total players in Melbourne will be around 5000 this year. Interesting bit will be growth next year.

 

[TheRam]

Your maths is pretty close to the money. NRL Victoria confirmed in May it had passed 4,500 registered club players and considering the Sunraysia competition only kicked off last week and Limestone Coast generally doesn't start until September, and there are also the school competition numbers (there was a Victorian pool for the first time in the Schoolboys Cup), it will bump it up a bit higher.

Senior teams total 27 or 10%. Rest are under 18s or lower to under 6s. Biggest growth is in u der 10s to under 16s where there are grades with up to 14 teams. They are producing juniors through to jersey flegg for example where over half the team are from their junior ranks. Not sure how much is spent on development. Total players in Melbourne will be around 5000 this year. Interesting bit will be growth next year.

Very encouraging numbers. Do either of you know if there has been a bump in numbers this season over previous ones and or have the development structures changed to make it better and get the growth happening?

Hard to know if we are actually making inroads unless we know what the figures were before covid-19 for example.

Thanks guys for your responses by the way. Much appreciated. I love seeing our game grow, especially in non-traditional States. It is vital we get this right to create a truly national and strong game that is bullet proof against all our competitors.

 

[siv]

If a National Reserve Grade kicked off tomorrow, the only NSW Cup teams truely impacted would be the Newtown Jets and North Sydney Bears. Sure Wests Magpies would need to be renamed Wests Tigers again, and Manly would drop their affiliation with Blacktown Workers, but that's it.

And lets add the fact that the Cowboys and Titans are running single team RG structures as well next year

That really only leaves the Broncos, maybe the Storm who both tried to create 2nd tier clubs at times. Which means its really a travel cost issue.

The Warriors dont seem to have a issue.

Dolphins are too new

And NRL pays travel costs these days

Anyway I can see PVL telling the QRL that you can have your extra cash for Qld Cup after you allow NRL-RG to be setup

Just signoff on 40 man NRL squads rather than 30+6. You can then easily adjust interchange rules to support playing in a NRL-RG

 

[Pneuma]

Very encouraging numbers. Do either of you know if there has been a bump in numbers this season over previous ones and or have the development structures changed to make it better and get the growth happening?

Hard to know if we are actually making inroads unless we know what the figures were before covid-19 for example.

Thanks guys for your responses by the way. Much appreciated. I love seeing our game grow, especially in non-traditional States. It is vital we get this right to create a truly national and strong game that is bullet proof against all our competitors.

The comp went like others during Covid. There has been a big boost this year. I think Samoas effort at the World Cup helped. Playing numbers pre Covid were lower similar but there is no doubt this year has been a big success.

 

[Wb1234]

And lets add the fact that the Cowboys and Titans are running single team RG structures as well next year

That really only leaves the Broncos, maybe the Storm who both tried to create 2nd tier clubs at times. Which means its really a travel cost issue.

The Warriors dont seem to have a issue.

Dolphins are too new

And NRL pays travel costs these days

Anyway I can see PVL telling the QRL that you can have your extra cash for Qld Cup after you allow NRL-RG to be setup

Just signoff on 40 man NRL squads rather than 30+6. You can then easily adjust interchange rules to support playing in a NRL-RG

You want all your good juniors playing in one team and being coached a similar way to first grade so the transition through the grades is seamless

 

[The Great Dane]

Third tier competition

With third tier competition comes third tier sized grants, exposure, fanbases, investment, sponsors, etc, etc.

In the Dolphins' case that means that their nifty little stadium that was paid for by the taxpayer through the sports rorts wouldn't exist. They'd have been working on a tiny budget compared to that they had as members of the Qld Cup, and their sponsorship value would have been comparable to other park footy sides because of the lack of exposure. The quality of their team and the competition they were playing in would have taken a hit, which would have made them less attractive to spectators and would have hit their already small gate takings even further. As a result of all of the above their fanbase would have evaporated just like those of the other BRL/QRL clubs that dropped out of the second tier, and they wouldn't have been in any position to bid for an NRL side.

 

[Wb1234]

With third tier competition comes third tier sized grants, exposure, fanbases, investment, sponsors, etc, etc.

In the Dolphins' case that means that their nifty little stadium that was paid for by the taxpayer through the sports rorts wouldn't exist. They'd have been working on a tiny budget compared to that they had as members of the Qld Cup, and their sponsorship value would have been comparable to other park footy sides because of the lack of exposure. The quality of their team and the competition they were playing in would have taken a hit, which would have made them less attractive to spectators and would have hit their already small gate takings even further. As a result of all of the above their fanbase would have evaporated just like those of the other BRL/QRL clubs that dropped out of the second tier, and they wouldn't have been in any position to bid for an NRL side.

Third tier is what they contribute to the nrl. Their crowds are hundred at best

you weren’t even a fan of the dolphins admission anyway

there would be little practical difference between a third tier or reserve grade from the clubs who miss out except they can’t use players from nrl clubs

 

[The Great Dane]

And lets add the fact that the Cowboys and Titans are running single team RG structures as well next year

That really only leaves the Broncos, maybe the Storm who both tried to create 2nd tier clubs at times. Which means its really a travel cost issue.

The Warriors dont seem to have a issue.

Dolphins are too new

And NRL pays travel costs these days

Anyway I can see PVL telling the QRL that you can have your extra cash for Qld Cup after you allow NRL-RG to be setup

Just signoff on 40 man NRL squads rather than 30+6. You can then easily adjust interchange rules to support playing in a NRL-RG

All the best development systems in the world are pyramids (the football pyramids, collegiate system in America, take your pick of examples), larger at the base and smaller at the top.

By going down this route the NRL would effectively be creating a bottleneck that restricts the professional pathways in the southern hemisphere to the NRL clubs own systems and players that are poached from RU. In other words you'd have to be picked to join one of the 17, soon to be 18, NRL club systems development pathways to have any realistic chance of making the NRL, which will necessitate significantly restricting the talent pool and the amount of juniors that are exposed to elite development programs.

Arguably that'll be good for the NRL clubs in some regards, as there'll be less competition for the best players in the younger age groups, but it'll be a disaster for the sport as it'll restrict the amount of opportunities in the sport and you will see more kids with potential giving up the sport at a younger age simply because their isn't room for them in the system.

The idea is mid 20th century thinking, and we're not in the mid 20th century anymore.

 

[The Great Dane]

Third tier is what they contribute to the nrl. Their crowds are hundred at best

you weren’t even a fan of the dolphins admission anyway

there would be little practical difference between a third tier or reserve grade from the clubs who miss out except they can’t use players from nrl clubs

There's tens of thousands of dollars and potentially dozens of participants per-club a season in practical difference.

You're right though, the NRL couldn't have wasted a license on the Dolphins if they had further decimated grassroots RL. . .

 

[siv]

All the best development systems in the world are pyramids (the football pyramids, collegiate system in America, take your pick of examples), larger at the base and smaller at the top.

By going down this route the NRL would effectively be creating a bottleneck that restricts the professional pathways in the southern hemisphere to the NRL clubs own systems and players that are poached from RU. In other words you'd have to be picked to join one of the 17, soon to be 18, NRL club systems development pathways to have any realistic chance of making the NRL, which will necessitate significantly restricting the talent pool and the amount of juniors that are exposed to elite development programs.

Arguably that'll be good for the NRL clubs in some regards, as there'll be less competition for the best players in the younger age groups, but it'll be a disaster for the sport as it'll restrict the amount of opportunities in the sport and you will see more kids with potential giving up the sport at a younger age simply because their isn't room for them in the system.

The idea is mid 20th century thinking, and we're not in the mid 20th century anymore.

Clubs are targeting players at 16 already

The only players who come through this model are the late bloomers

Anyway removing 3 players from a Qld Cup team today wont change much

Plus you still have the same pathway from Qld Cup to NRL, you just enter at NRL-RG

In fact you will create more opportunities for 250 players who get forced to leave/retire every year

 

[siv]

Lets not forget players 18 to 36 today will be earning around 3-4 mil from 1.5-2 mil 5 years ago

While Qld Cup teams still operate around $1 mil

And this gap will grow with every new broadcast deal and new CBA

We just had the RLPA push to move players 26-36 up to minimum fulltime professional wages in the CBA

This isnt going away

NSW Cup and Qld Cup need to grow yes, but at their pace, and independent from the NRL

 

[Perth Red]

Sure of course.

The Storm keep telling us that they are making great strides in this area all the time, so if that is actually true, you beaut. But if it is found to be bullocks which I suspect it is seeing that they have developed 'F' all juniors from the whole of Victoria, then I say audit them and see where and how much of their money goes into Victorian junior development. If it is deemed not enough the ARLC need to take a $2-3m of they Salary grant money and do the Victorian/Melbourne development for them for both the men and women side of the game.

Actually, does anyone know exactly how much the Storm spend on junior development in Victoria alone, not what they spend that includes the development they do in other States? Also how much do the NRL/ARLC spend currently on Victorian junior development?

It would make things a little clearer.

It’s not the storms job to fund jnr participation. That’s the job of Vicnrl which Is now a subsidiary of the nrl.

 

[Perth Red]

With third tier competition comes third tier sized grants, exposure, fanbases, investment, sponsors, etc, etc.

In the Dolphins' case that means that their nifty little stadium that was paid for by the taxpayer through the sports rorts wouldn't exist. They'd have been working on a tiny budget compared to that they had as members of the Qld Cup, and their sponsorship value would have been comparable to other park footy sides because of the lack of exposure. The quality of their team and the competition they were playing in would have taken a hit, which would have made them less attractive to spectators and would have hit their already small gate takings even further. As a result of all of the above their fanbase would have evaporated just like those of the other BRL/QRL clubs that dropped out of the second tier, and they wouldn't have been in any position to bid for an NRL side.

Not necessarily. it could in fact be argued a legitimate nrl2 comp would be more appealing to local fans than the contrived pseudo reserve grade we have now where results are largely influenced by what nrl fringe players are playing that week And whose identity is neither a legit comp or a full reserve grade.
uk rl runs on an oily rag yet manages to have two semi pro comps under SL.

 

[The Great Dane]

Not necessarily. it could in fact be argued a legitimate nrl2 comp would be more appealing to local fans than the contrived pseudo reserve grade we have now where results are largely influenced by what nrl fringe players are playing that week And whose identity is neither a legit comp or a full reserve grade.
uk rl runs on an oily rag yet manages to have two semi pro comps under SL.

Nobody was saying that the current system is the best system, or even advocating for the current system, simply saying that it's better than the proposed NRL reserve grade.

Multiple tiers of pro/semi-pro competitions would exist if the NRL were interested in what was best for the sport, but that's a separate discussion.

 

[gUt]

I don't delve into this stuff like you all but as a footy fan I prefer the variety of clubs we see in the difference between T1 (NRL) and T2 (NSWRL AND QRL comps). If it was straight like for like with the NRL it would be a bit samey.

 

[Perth Red]

I don't delve into this stuff like you all but as a footy fan I prefer the variety of clubs we see in the difference between T1 (NRL) and T2 (NSWRL AND QRL comps). If it was straight like for like with the NRL it would be a bit samey.

I think the trick would be to not have any focus on reserve grade and to have the perception of nrl2 as the second tier. it would actually make the nsw cup more interesting with addition of country teams like qrl cup has. It won’t ever be big but that’s not its goal, that’s what the nrl is for. But it would add more opportunity for players to be paid and stay in game after nrl And give RL fans a good day out at the footy in areas that dont have an nrl team near by.