NRL vs NFL debate

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

If there's a mod handy, maybe you should remind these twats that there is an NFL section where they can discuss things that are irrelevant to this discussion.

If I want to read about the next big thing from Pigsknuckle Arkansas, I'll go to the NFL forum....

 

[Bomber]

Ozhawk66, you seem to be missing my point totally about steroid use.

The fact that there are virtually no second or third time offenders is to be commended. But, there should be no first time offenders either! I'm not that naive to think that there won't ever be any drug use in any sport, but anyone who uses drugs should have the book thrown at them and be tossed out of the sport.

Just because I can't provide the current NRL drug policy in its entirery doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In this thread there are stacks of anecdotal references to players getting suspended in league for steroid use. The very fact that a Queensland Cup player got suspended for two years should alert you to the fact that the NRL policy is exactly the same, since the same penalty is given for drug cheats in any form of rugby league in Australia. (FFS! They even suspended Ten Pin Bowlers and Ice Hockey players in Australia for using drugs!)

I'll assume you don't know too much about the formation of the National Rugby League in November 1997 - it was a merger of the ARL and Super League which had seperate competitions (and thus seperate policies on drugs) in 1997. The NRL stipulated that two years would be the mandatory suspension for steroid use. The two players which I provided in my source played in the ARL which had a 22-week suspension policy for drugs. It was only by using a technical loophole (their contracts were signed whilst they were in the ARL competition) that they avoided the two-year suspension.

To be fair, I've never seen an actual link to a NFL handbook relating to their drug policy. You've only provided vague statements from their commissioner saying "I think.....I think......I think......"

Perhaps the NFL is going on some sort of social justice bend by only suspending first time offenders for four weeks, thereby granting them a shot at redemption, etc. But what kind of message does that send? "Okay, I'm sorry, but you've been suspended for getting on the juice. Take the time to go back to the family farm in Bumf**k Iowa, and we'll see you back here to take on the Fighting Anteaters."

As for the 'fact' that three dynasties have been under a cloud of suspicion re: steroids. It is only speculation, but it's out there. It is a 'fact' that there is suspicion. The head coach in question actually played for one of those teams, but I'm not sure whether it was during their run of Super Bowl wins. The 'party pie' reference was a bit of wordwanking on my part, but nonetheless he said the use of steroids was common, to the point that he felt compelled to take them to keep up with his opposition.

But enough of this. You're going to cop such a hiding once this fantasy football starts ;-)

 

[Misty Bee]

Lets get a few things right.

There is no such sport as "NRL". The name is Rugby League.

Re Wingers 'doing very little", NFL is the only sport where wingers get interchanged! In fact, a change of posession means that an entire team gets interchanged. Now, if posession changes are similar to League (around 70 posession changes per match), that means EVERY player gets interchanged 70 times!!! Where is the endurance in that???

NFL is the football world'sversion of Cricket. Cricket, too, is exciting, seeing a pace bowler thundering in from the outer gruond, delivering a lethal ball to the batsman, who dances down the ground and belts the thing over mid-on for a boundary. Glorious, rivetting stuff. It's just that the next 5 minutes where every member of the bowlers team picks up the ball, has a look at it, throws it to his mate, through 11 pairs of hands until it reaches the bowler, who walks slowly back to the fence....zzzzzzzzzzz.

In Australia, the 4 codes of football that we are familiar with don't have such frequent stoppages. Even poor old Union, the domain of the fat football player, is based on a theory of keeping the ball in play.

As for multiskilling, forget it. I recall (name forgotten) an ex AFL player who played gridiron in the US. His job? To kick a ball 50m in 4.6 seconds. 4.7 would be a failure. Had to be 4.6. Imagine Andrew Johns having nothing else to do but put an occasional kick with specific measurements! The amazing thing about the Johns brothers was their ability to pull a kick up a few inches short of the dead ballline regardless of WHERE they kicked it from. That level of brilliance is never used un NFL.

Pre interchange, there were only 2 replacements allowed during a game. These players had to play an entire reserve grade match to qualify for their reserve status. And before that, there were no reserves at all. League folklore is full of men like Eric Weissel, Alan Prescott, John Sattler etc who have played hugely improatnt matches with broken bones. Weissel once set up an Ashes victory with a 75m run on a broken ankle. Gridoron's answer to this is......?

The population difference is very crucial. With 15 times the population, you would expect the basic athlete, upon entry into the Gridiron big time, to be bigger, stronger and faster than his League counterpart. Yes, the genetic fetures of African ancestry means a pool of large people. No matter. While there are (estimated) 70 million African Americans that can provide the NFL with their giants, we have a few hundred thousand Maori, Polynesian, and Koori people that can provide our code with scary, tough, ruthless people aka Quentin Pongia, Kevin Tamati, Gordon Tallis, Mal Merninga, Carl Webb, Iafeta Pa'aleasiina etc.

And the final nail in the Gridiron coffin - apart from the USA - the land of sporting isolationism - has been adopted by exactly ZERO countries,despite over a century of hype. Maybe other countries can't get the gear - it's all bought by motorcycle riders and bedding manufacturers.

But, in the end, who are we to argue? I'd prefer to leave the final word to one Nate Turner - boom young gridiron potential superstar - who decided that all the fame, fortune and glory of playing Gridiron was no match for the utter joy of playing Rugby League. And he got to represent his country, which is more than any Gridiron player has ever achieved.

 

[Misty Bee]

Look in terms of sheer size, power and speed NFL players are superior, look at someone like Daunte Culpepper, a quaterback the size of Willie Mason, and damn quick as well, can you imagine someone like that as a playmaker in league?
Then you got the wide receivers, guys like Terrell Owens, 6'3, 100kg, can jump and would probably out sprint most NRL wingers.
NFL wide recievers are some of the quickest athletes in the world, guys like Maurice Greene use to play WR in HS. Americans (African Americans in particular) are just better athletes. When's the last time an Australian sprinter made the final of the 100m?
NRL players might be fitter but not faster.

Irrellevant, unless you are gathering a kick in goal and racing 100m to score -last done I believe by Brett Mullins in 1994 in Newcastle. (and could have been done by Darren Clarke, 100m olympic finallist and Balmain winger, but I digress)

Far more important is pace over 5m, 10 or even 20m.

When the Olympics have a 5m race (for the likes of Matt Bowen, Luke Burt etc) you can use that argument.

 

[ozhawk66]

He would be crap at half back because he's been throwing pies through the air, not League passes. He'd be better in a three stooges film than in a Rugby League match.


League passes are no where near the same league as the NFL. A bit harder to throw 60 yd bombs than the same ol 2-5 meter pass - with two hands.


And how many tackles would he make tonight?


If he were playing league, I bet his 120 kg frame would have no probs taking on any forwards, or chasing down a faster winger. Especially when I have seen Daunte take LB's head on, that make Mason or a Webke look mild(smaller, slower etc...) in comparison. And I don't see too many 80 kg #7 jersies capable of doing this.


Probably the same amout he makes in an NFL season, 0.

That would be me like saying, how many passes would your player complete in the NFL? zero.



Just what Queensland need, a Seppo with a "great arm" and no tackling ability at half. Get Wayne Bennett on the line, time to drag another halfback from overseas...

Jesus you're a nong.

Nong? Carefull nubster, the Maroons will be had tonight.

 

[Misty Bee]

And another thing seppos, we use metric in OZ. To me, a 7ft 300 pound giant is a man who 5 more shoes than I do and could be sold to a feak show in London for 300 quid.

Meters and kilos, please.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

League passes are no where near the same league as the NFL. A bit harder to throw 60 yd bombs than the same ol 2-5 meter pass - with two hands.

You obviously didn't watch last night's show.

See if an NFL player could pass a League ball 20-25 metres with pinpoint accuracy like A. Johns can.

The NFL ball is 2/3 the size of a League ball.

60 yards sounds impressive except that... they've been practising it for years, the ball is smaller, and 60 yards isn't 60 metres....

If he were playing league, I bet his 120 kg frame would have no probs taking on any forwards, or chasing down a faster winger. Especially when I have seen Daunte take LB's head on, that make Mason or a Webke look mild(smaller, slower etc...) in comparison. And I don't see too many 80 kg #7 jersies capable of doing this.

hahahahaahahahaah

The bloke hasn't made a tackle in the NFL. He'd be pissed on, be run over, spat on, farted on, have missed 20 tackles and been wholly responsible for NSW leading 32-0 at half-time if he was the Qld halfback tonight. I don't care if he's 150kgs and can run the 100 in 10 flat, he would be absolutely useless in the NRL without 3 - 4 years absolute minimum training.

Mason and Webke would be doing a war dance on his head every 2 minutes.

You're seriously demented.

That would be me like saying, how many passes would your player complete in the NFL? zero.

Exactly. The same amount of tackles Culpepper would make in an NRL game.

Nice point. what are you going to tell me next, AFL players make good punters?

Nong? Carefull nubster, the Maroons will be had tonight.

Idiot.

I hope the Maroons get sh*t on tonight...

 

[TooheysNew]

If you can't go to TFC, bring TFC to you. ;-)

 

[ozhawk66]

Lets get a few things right.

Re Wingers 'doing very little", NFL is the only sport where wingers get interchanged!

The NFL doesn't have wingers.


In fact, a change of posession means that an entire team gets interchanged. Now, if posession changes are similar to League (around 70 posession changes per match), that means EVERY player gets interchanged 70 times!!! Where is the endurance in that???


This is where your going down a slippery slope of apple/oranges argument. Change of possession in league happens more frequently, even though real estate is much harder to come by in football. Your also forgetting that players in American football have constant one-on-one contact - such is not the case in league. This is where endurance is taxed in different ways between the two sports.


In Australia, the 4 codes of football that we are familiar with don't have such frequent stoppages. Even poor old Union, the domain of the fat football player, is based on a theory of keeping the ball in play.


Where each play is more important unto itself in football, a series of 6 in league equals about 1-2 plays. If that. Where your used to seeing and expecting the same ol plays in normal play of the ball and know where the ball is going, in football, you have to be careful of the fact that ball can end up anywhere from 5-50 yds downfield in seconds.

In football, your offensive choices are: run right, left or up the middle. Run wide right or left. Pass right or left or over the middle. Screen passes, left right or up the middle. Pass middle routes in the flat or crossing routes 10-20 yards down field. Pass short or long on the sideline rotes. Pass deep left or right.....or down the middle. Pass deep left or right on sideline routes.

I won't mention the trick plays or misdirection plays which happen all the time. The closest thing to a trick play in league is a kick 'n chase.




As for multiskilling, forget it. I recall (name forgotten) an ex AFL player who played gridiron in the US. His job? To kick a ball 50m in 4.6 seconds. 4.7 would be a failure.

Your talking about hang time and your a bit off in your representation of it. And a punter has to be able to do more than what your saying, including holding for extra points/field goals and is required to have some capability at the QB position - one of the most important positions - or he'll never punt in the NFL, no matter how far he can punt.



Had to be 4.6. Imagine Andrew Johns having nothing else to do but put an occasional kick with specific measurements! The amazing thing about the Johns brothers was their ability to pull a kick up a few inches short of the dead ballline regardless of WHERE they kicked it from. That level of brilliance is never used un NFL.

It's a talent that's highly graded in a punters ability to constantly kick inside the 20 without any return. And it's very hard to do. Never used? It's done all the time.



Pre interchange, there were only 2 replacements allowed during a game. These players had to play an entire reserve grade match to qualify for their reserve status. And before that, there were no reserves at all. League folklore is full of men like Eric Weissel, Alan Prescott, John Sattler etc who have played hugely improatnt matches with broken bones. Weissel once set up an Ashes victory with a 75m run on a broken ankle. Gridoron's answer to this is......?


I could match your broken ankle story - like to see a link for yours, though - with Jack Youngblood playing with a broken leg in the Super Bowl.



The population difference is very crucial. With 15 times the population, you would expect the basic athlete, upon entry into the Gridiron big time, to be bigger, stronger and faster than his League counterpart. Yes, the genetic fetures of African ancestry means a pool of large people.

Genetics don't mean a damn thing here. There are loads of "white' people with the same attributes and even a fair amount of Pacific Islander blood in the NFL.



And the final nail in the Gridiron coffin - apart from the USA - the land of sporting isolationism - has been adopted by exactly ZERO countries,despite over a century of hype. Maybe other countries can't get the gear - it's all bought by motorcycle riders and bedding manufacturers.

Don't know what you mean by adopted, but it is played in other countries - Canada, Australia, Europe etc.... and the ratings for the Super Bowl dwarf anything in the rugby union or league world.



But, in the end, who are we to argue? I'd prefer to leave the final word to one Nate Turner - boom young gridiron potential superstar - who decided that all the fame, fortune and glory of playing Gridiron was no match for the utter joy of playing Rugby League. And he got to represent his country, which is more than any Gridiron player has ever achieved.

More than any other Gridiron player has achieved is a stupid, culturally biased comment. Besides, it's not called gridiron. It's called football.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

lol Dilmah

I like NFL, I've already mentioned that, I watch it every chance I get, I go in Yahoo fantasy comps (I like that it's stat driven) and Foxtel do cover it well.

But, let's face facts.

If I'm watching an NFL game I can take 2 craps, pee 15 times, make coffee 8 times, jerk off 6 times and check the stats of the other games on the net 10 times without missing any action.

I have to do all that in the 10 minute 1/2 time break of an NRL game in order to not miss any action.

I tried it once and had to be scraped off the wall.

 

[ozhawk66]

And another thing seppos, we use metric in OZ. To me, a 7ft 300 pound giant is a man who 5 more shoes than I do and could be sold to a feak show in London for 300 quid.

Meters and kilos, please.

The last time I posted using weight I used kilos in describing Mason and Daunte Culpepper.

 

[Misty Bee]

More than any other Gridiron player has achieved is a stupid, culturally biased comment. Besides, it's not called gridiron. It's called football.

Football is played with a round ball - the object being to kick that ballinto a net.

Gridiron is Gridiron - what Seppos play instead of real football codes.

Just worked out whey there are so many stoppages - it must be hell in those helmets if your head sweats!

 

[ozhawk66]

You obviously didn't watch last night's show.

See if an NFL player could pass a League ball 20-25 metres with pinpoint accuracy like A. Johns can.


If he can't, he'd never get looked at. And were talking a lot longer than the seldom used 20/25 meter passes in league. And, he has to do it with one arm.


The NFL ball is 2/3 the size of a League ball.

Might be a bit smaller and less bulbous, but the pigskin is a much harder ball to land on :lol:


60 yards sounds impressive except that... they've been practising it for years, the ball is smaller, and 60 yards isn't 60 metres....


They practise for years becaue they have too and I don't see em passing anywhere near 60 yds or meters in league.



hahahahaahahahaah

The bloke hasn't made a tackle in the NFL.

Wanna bet? Besides, the collisions Daunte endures are much harder than the average NRL tackles.



He'd be pissed on, be run over, spat on, farted on, have missed 20 tackles and been wholly responsible for NSW leading 32-0 at half-time if he was the Qld halfback tonight. I don't care if he's 150kgs and can run the 100 in 10 flat, he would be absolutely useless in the NRL without 3 - 4 years absolute minimum training.

Mason and Webke would be doing a war dance on his head every 2 minutes.


Maybe in your world, but not the real world. There is an increadibly high percentage of American football players who would hurt a Mason or Webke - quickly and in a bad way.



You're seriously demented.

In your world, I am demented. Wouldn't have it any other way. If your players/game was that rough, they wouldn't be letting 18 year old kids like Bott into the NRL. Needless to say, that 18 year old kid has years before he even gets looked at to make the NFL.



Exactly. The same amount of tackles Culpepper would make in an NRL game.

Nice point. what are you going to tell me next, AFL players make good punters?


No, cause only one has kicked in the NFL, as far as I know.



Idiot.

.

Don't get too mad knobuhleenus.

 

[ozhawk66]

lol Dilmah

I like NFL, I've already mentioned that, I watch it every chance I get, I go in Yahoo fantasy comps (I like that it's stat driven) and Foxtel do cover it well.

But, let's face facts.

If I'm watching an NFL game I can take 2 craps, pee 15 times, make coffee 8 times, jerk off 6 times and check the stats of the other games on the net 10 times without missing any action.

I have to do all that in the 10 minute 1/2 time break of an NRL game in order to not miss any action.

I tried it once and had to be scraped off the wall.

I've actually timed a league halftime and it was exactly 15 minutes, not ten.

 

[ozhawk66]

Football is played with a round ball - the object being to kick that ballinto a net.

Gridiron is Gridiron - what Seppos play instead of real football codes.

Just worked out whey there are so many stoppages - it must be hell in those helmets if your head sweats!

No, the object is to score a TD.

And we very seldom call it gridiron, just like we call soccer soccer.

One gets used to the helmets. And where there is stoppages for scrums on every play in football, most players are pacing themselves DURING normal play of the ball as most players are not involved on the tackle/play of the ball during normal play in league.

In football, every player is involved on every play. Thats why there are 7 refs on the field as opposed to only one on the field in league.

 

[Everlovin' Antichrist]

You've timed one League half time at 15 minutes?

Jesus, we had better start sending letters to the NRL about that.

 

[Ghoulies]

I've actually timed a league halftime and it was exactly 15 minutes, not ten.

Ozhawk, you're a dingbat. You've completely missed the point, an NRL game could have a 30 minute half time break but it would still be nothing compared to the amount of stoppages in gridiron.

 

[Mr Saab]

Gridiron is Gridiron - what Seppos play instead of real football codes.

nobody but clowns like you call it Gridion. Go to america and say that and they wont have any idea what you are on about.
ITs American Football.

 

[ozhawk66]

You've timed one League half time at 15 minutes?

Jesus, we had better start sending letters to the NRL about that.

It's hell being wrong about something you claimed, isn't it.

 

[Misty Bee]

The NFL doesn't have wingers.

So who plays on the flanks?





This is where your going down a slippery slope of apple/oranges argument. Change of possession in league happens more frequently, even though real estate is much harder to come by in football. Your also forgetting that players in American football have constant one-on-one contact - such is not the case in league. This is where endurance is taxed in different ways between the two sports.

You allow forward passes, how come it's harder to gain ground?

One one one contact is virtually constant in the forwards in League as well. There is another misnomer in Gridiron, the fact that all players have contact each play means that the available players aiming to tackle to ball carrier is less. The defence is diverted in a rediculous drive for 'impact'that has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of stoppnig the ball carrier (the position of the ball in Gridiron determines where the play is, right?)

Watch the first tackle of Origin tonight. some bloke getting belted by 3-4 opponents. No padding either. And no 5 minute break to recover.


Where each play is more important unto itself in football, a series of 6 in league equals about 1-2 plays. If that. Where your used to seeing and expecting the same ol plays in normal play of the ball and know where the ball is going, in football, you have to be careful of the fact that ball can end up anywhere from 5-50 yds downfield in seconds.

In football, your offensive choices are: run right, left or up the middle. Run wide right or left. Pass right or left or over the middle. Screen passes, left right or up the middle. Pass middle routes in the flat or crossing routes 10-20 yards down field. Pass short or long on the sideline rotes. Pass deep left or right.....or down the middle. Pass deep left or right on sideline routes.

I won't mention the trick plays or misdirection plays which happen all the time. The closest thing to a trick play in league is a kick 'n chase.

Firstly, if 6 League rucks is equal to 2 Gridiron plays, then that means that League is 3 times as tough as Gridiron. I know you will guffaw at that. But a set of 6 takes roughly 60-90 seconds, when the ball can travel anywhere on the ground. How many MINUTES does it take to have 6 plays in Gridiron?

Skills in League require split secopnd decisions to be made - not in over rehearsed moves that take a minute of discussion to set up, and allow for zero spontenaiety. Watch Joey and Lockeyer tonight. They will do things completely beyond the scope of thought of a NFL quarterback.




As for multiskilling, forget it. I recall (name forgotten) an ex AFL player who played gridiron in the US. His job? To kick a ball 50m in 4.6 seconds. 4.7 would be a failure.

Your talking about hang time and your a bit off in your representation of it. And a punter has to be able to do more than what your saying, including holding for extra points/field goals and is required to have some capability at the QB position - one of the most important positions - or he'll never punt in the NFL, no matter how far he can punt.

So he gets to do 3 types of kicks? How about tackle? Passing? Organising? Chip kicks?



Had to be 4.6. Imagine Andrew Johns having nothing else to do but put an occasional kick with specific measurements! The amazing thing about the Johns brothers was their ability to pull a kick up a few inches short of the dead ballline regardless of WHERE they kicked it from. That level of brilliance is never used un NFL.

It's a talent that's highly graded in a punters ability to constantly kick inside the 20 without any return. And it's very hard to do. Never used? It's done all the time.
How many players do they need to produce those vast array of skills? You said yourself that a kicker may need to have 3 different kicks. How many are needed to simulate the wide variety of possibilities?


Pre interchange, there were only 2 replacements allowed during a game. These players had to play an entire reserve grade match to qualify for their reserve status. And before that, there were no reserves at all. League folklore is full of men like Eric Weissel, Alan Prescott, John Sattler etc who have played hugely improatnt matches with broken bones. Weissel once set up an Ashes victory with a 75m run on a broken ankle. Gridoron's answer to this is......?


I could match your broken ankle story - like to see a link for yours, though - with Jack Youngblood playing with a broken leg in the Super Bowl.
Don't need a link - it's well known League knowledge. If you don't know the stories of Weissel, Prescott or Sattler, you shuold not be arguing anything on a league forum.



The population difference is very crucial. With 15 times the population, you would expect the basic athlete, upon entry into the Gridiron big time, to be bigger, stronger and faster than his League counterpart. Yes, the genetic fetures of African ancestry means a pool of large people.

Genetics don't mean a damn thing here. There are loads of "white' people with the same attributes and even a fair amount of Pacific Islander blood in the NFL.

Rubbish. If you can't see the genetic differences between races, you're blind!



And the final nail in the Gridiron coffin - apart from the USA - the land of sporting isolationism - has been adopted by exactly ZERO countries,despite over a century of hype. Maybe other countries can't get the gear - it's all bought by motorcycle riders and bedding manufacturers.

Don't know what you mean by adopted, but it is played in other countries - Canada, Australia, Europe etc.... and the ratings for the Super Bowl dwarf anything in the rugby union or league world.

Europe isn't a country. It's presence here is so small that certain small breeds of weasles garnisheer greater support. And I bet the Australian Gridiron team has never played a test in front of 35 000 like the USA Tomahawkes have!



But, in the end, who are we to argue? I'd prefer to leave the final word to one Nate Turner - boom young gridiron potential superstar - who decided that all the fame, fortune and glory of playing Gridiron was no match for the utter joy of playing Rugby League. And he got to represent his country, which is more than any Gridiron player has ever achieved.




More than any other Gridiron player has achieved is a stupid, culturally biased comment. Besides, it's not called gridiron. It's called football.