NZ Maori 2008 World Cup

[Charge]

How many non-Maoris are in the current NZ side? If it is less than half, then why have another Maori side?

I could understand the Maori argument if there were no Maoris in the current NZ setup.

 

[The Observer]

Here is a list of some players who went on to bigger and better things after the 2000 World Cup. <snipped>

Wales and Scotland aren't countries either. The West Indies isn't a country, but people seem happy enough for them to compete in the CWC.

Good points, Auckmel.

 

[The Observer]

Its no poor taste, <snipped>
Proper nations with home growen talent and no teams like the Maori!

Read my later posts.

That was the first time Maori were in the World Cup, so its not like the deserve a place over Fiji or Tonga who have been at the last two..

Fiji and Tonga have been playing RL since the 80s, the Maori have been playing since 1908. In that time Fiji has copped 60 point thrashings from Australia and England (like in RLWC 95 and 2000); Samoa was thrashed by Australia in 2000. OTOH the Maori have beaten elite nations like GB in 1996 and run them close in 1999, and had close games against teams in its RLWC pool.

How many non-Maoris are in the current NZ side? If it is less than half, then why have another Maori side?

I could understand the Maori argument if there were no Maoris in the current NZ setup.

Eh? The % makeup of the current NZ team is irrelevant. That would be like talking about whether West Indian background of C Walker, R Bailey, M Calderwood, G Raynor and L Pryce should make the West Indies RL team redundant.

The NZ represents the best players in NZ, whether their ancestry be Pakeha (European), Maori, Samoan, Tongan, other PI, Chinese or whatever. The Kiwis get first pick.

The Maori would represent the best players of Maori ancestry that aren't picked for NZ Kiwis, they cede the best players to NZ out of respect. They deserve a chance to qualify for RLWC by satisfying two conditions, by representing
1) the indigenous or first people of NZ who have lived there for 9000 years (modern NZ is less than 250 years old) AND
2) an ethnic minority.

As I explained above, the UK got four Home Nations teams in the last RLWC so you shouldn't complain.

FWIW of the 27 odd players in the Kiwi squad, around 10 had Maori ancestry (Whatuira, Toopi, Hape, Jones, Hohaia, Rauhihi, Wiki, Kidwell, Guttenbeil, N Cayless). All of those are of mixed ethnicity (as all Maori are these days).

Webster, Webb and Harrison may have had some Maori ancestry, I'm not sure.

 

[Ari Gold]

But Lebanon, Greece, Italy etc who will be full of born and bred Australians wont be Australia "A" "B" and "C"?

Then of course we'll have, Western Samoa and Tonga who'll be full of Kiwis and Australians too.

Greece and Itay won't be eligible for the WC because of this problem, and Lebanon will have to call on 6+ LOCALS into their squad.

Now if Italy and Greece aren't eligible for the WC, how could the Maori be eligible?

do they have a domestic competition?
can they develop their own juniors?

NO they can't... how can they, its impossible for the maori's to have their own league. they just rely on clubs in NZ and AUS to develop their players.

 

[ozbash]

Lebanon will have to call on 6+ LOCALS into their squad. - ring ins ?

do they have a domestic competition?
can they develop their own juniors?

yes they bloody well do ! only recently they played a 3 test series v the cook islands which caps were awarded.

maori rugby league is an organisation in its own right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Maori


Rugby League
A New Zealand Maori first toured overseas in 1908 when they visited Australia. This tour was a success, and was followed by another tour to Australia in 1909 and to Great Britain in 1910.

A separate body, the Maori Rugby League was formed in 1934 to administer the game in Maori communities. This body was later renamed the Aotearoa Maori Rugby League and in 1992 it was registered as an incorporated society.

The Maoris have had a wonderful record of beating international touring teams over the years. In 1983 they visited Britain and a side containing future Kiwis stars like Hugh McGahan, Dean Bell and Clayton Friend proved too strong for the amateur opposition they played. For many years, the Maoris have competed in the Pacific Cup alongside other teams with a strong presence of New Zealand based players - Samoa, Tonga and the Cook Islands, so they thought it was right they should have the opportunity to follow these teams to the World Cup. The invitation to the Maoris to take part in the 2000 World Cup came about as a result of promises made to them by the old Super League International Board at the height of the “war” that tore the game apart in the southern hemisphere.

The Maori team has participated in the Pacific Cup (since 1974), Superleague Oceania Tournament (1997), Papua New Guinea 50th Anniversary (1998), World Cup (2000), World Sevens Qualification (2003) and Pacific Rim (2004) competitions.

Their most recent match was against the Cook Islands on 8 October 2005, which was a 26-all draw.

http://www.nzsportsacademy.co.nz/league.htm

Tarewa Nikau

Rugby League Programme Director

Tawera is one of New Zealand’s most successful rugby league sportsmen. He has played for NZ Kiwis, Melbourne Stormers, Sheffield and Castleford. A previous coach for the Aotearoa Maori Rugby League team, Tawera is currently coaching regional team, Waicoa Bay Stallions. Tawera is responsible for developing the Rugby League Programme which will be offered by the New Zealand Sports Academy in February 2006.


Velani Bernard

Rugby League Programme Manager

Velani has a Diploma in Tertiary Teaching. She is a skilled project manager, specialising in quality management systems and organisational development. She is responsible for ensuring all support systems and processes are in place for the Rugby League Programme being offered by the New Zealand Sports Academy in February 2006.

 

[Copa]

Lebanon will have to call on 6+ LOCALS into their squad. - ring ins ?

.

Lebanon has a domestic comp and they have recently toured the UK with a team fully made up from players involved in the lebanese comp.



Maori are OUT.... keep complaining if you want though.

 

[carlnz]

Lebanon will have to call on 6+ LOCALS into their squad. - ring ins ?

do they have a domestic competition?
can they develop their own juniors?

Dont forget that is only 6 players from their domestic comp in their squad!! So Lebanon can still name an 18 man team with Australian born players, or maybe 17 with one domestic player on the bench.

Just think what it will do for the 6 guys from their local comp? Play along side and train with full time players.

So in saying this teams can name a very strong team for a match against NZ or Aus then when they play a lower nation like USA or Cook Islands they could name 4 of the domestic players in the team.

 

[screeny]

A robust, empassioned defence of the Maori question from a few posters, and I agree that different opinions should be respected and debated.....but having said that, you're all wrong and totally out of step with the exigencies of int'l RL!!

First of all, anyone who brings up Italy, Lebanon, Greece etc as part of a defence of the Maori inclusion into the WC argument is barking up the wrong tree. They're countries, 'Maori' isn't a country. Has it ever been a country? (Serious question, has there ever been a state in what is todays NZ called 'Maori'? What was NZ called before it was named NZ: Aotearoa or the Maori Kingdom or someething else?).

Observer,

I'm aware of the Fifa GB polemic but if you think the FA, the Welsh FA and the FAI wouldn't have objected to any real threat to combine them you're nuts. I know you're not nuts, and I know you don't really believe the HNs in football would have been sacrificed for a GB team. There's too much money, power and history at stake in the respective four nations.

You raise the 2000 WC and the scorn attributed to the HNs. But look at the HNs from a day-to-day perspective, not a 'big match' perspective. RL benefits much, much more from the HNs being independent bodies, with each ruling body being forced to develop its own administration which will, in the long run, benefit RL in terms of players and spectators.

By criticising Wales v Ireland on the basis of a low crowd is criticising the very notion and aspiration of a European wide int'l tournament. The ENC is a good thing for RL, a necessity even, in spite ofthe poor crowds.

You say:

In your opinion. If we're supposed to use the very subjective notion of a team's potential contribution as a criterion for RLWC entry, then we'll struggle to stage an RLWC with 4 nations.

I absolutely disagree with that! What are you saying, that only four nations can have any positives coming out of a WC??!

To answer your two questions:

1) The West Indies play test, ODI and WC cricket. What nation or country do they represent? Is it OK that a WC team represents 6 countries?

2) Northern Ireland team plays in FIFA competition, and can vy for WC entry. Does Northern Ireland represent a nation or country? Which country are they a part of?

1. The cricket authorities believe that a federation team offers their sport a serious, viable int'l competitor which would not be the case with individual island nations. The Maori do not offer RL any serious salvation - it's not as though they provide the sport at the moment with a real int'l drawcard. The Windies cricket team is a huge part of that sport's int'l programme.

2. NI is independent in football because, I presume without doing any research, the other HNs are independent and the N. Irish FA wanted to control its own patch. Again, I'm sure money and power have a lot to do with it.

Well they're countries, the Maori aren't representing a country.-screemy

you try telling that to a maori .
what a load of crap.

Ozbash, 'Maori' isn't a country, now be quiet.

 

[griff]

The Maori would represent the best players of Maori ancestry that aren't picked for NZ Kiwis, they cede the best players to NZ out of respect. They deserve a chance to qualify for RLWC by satisfying two conditions, by representing
1) the indigenous or first people of NZ who have lived there for 9000 years (modern NZ is less than 250 years old) AND
2) an ethnic minority.

No, the Maori only got to NZ in about 1200 AD. So if you say that they deserve a chance to qualify for the RLWC by virtue of their length of time they lived in NZ and the fact they are an ethnic minority, do you think Yorkshiremen should also qualify? Yorkshiremen have been living in England for longer than Maoris have been living in NZ.

The point is moot anyway, fortunately they will not be appearing at RLWCs in future.

And the point you aren't recognising about Wales or Scotland or the West Indies is that they are all countries or groups of countries - they are all geographic areas. Maori on the other hand is an ethnic concept.

 

[ozbash]

so in effect you 2 (griff and screemy) are denying the aotearoa maori inclusion to the world cup because of race.. ? to me that smells of racism.
you say there is no such place as maori ? - dead right, maori are the indiginous pople of nz
there is a recognised place known to the maori as aotearoa . the queen of england recognises it, the nz govt recognises it,, the maori want to represent it in the next w/cup !

forget the history lessons, the maori want to play and they have every right.

 

[griff]

You are right, Aotearoa will be playing at the WC, the Kiwis will represent that country.

It isn't about racism at all, get over yourself.

 

[Manurewa_Marlins]

And we'll have an Aussie team full of Kiwis. This is BS!

 

[disco1]

The principality of Wales has less autonomy within the UK than the state of NSW does within the Commonwealth of Australia, and noone is claiming NSW should be in RLWC.

What are you going on about, have you ever done history? Wales is millenia's old with its own language, own territory, own capital, identity, own flag and peoples. We have fought for our independance for thousands of years. Just because our larger neighbours decided THEY want everyone under the same flag doesn't mean the Welsh want to.

The Welsh have their own sporting teams by right.

Last time I checked NSW had a history spanning 1 side of A4 paper with no traditions of its own and no culture apart from that borrowed from your English mother country.

The Maori shouldn't be allowed their own team, if they do should there also be a Norse RL, Celtic RL, Viking RL, Saxon RL, Pict RL...etc...etc

 

[roopy]

poll

 

[Carbz]

so in effect you 2 (griff and screemy) are denying the aotearoa maori inclusion to the world cup because of race.. ? to me that smells of racism.

This was a good debate until you mentioned racism mate. I'm sure a Maori team would be a strong one and probably could be well marketed, but the fact remains, they are already represented by the NZ side. A side that is now the best in the world. get behind them

 

[AuckMel]

This was a good debate until you mentioned racism mate.

He has a point though. Why should other players have the opportunity to double dip but not others who aren't so lucky to have grandparentage from other nations?

This is where the whole grandparent rule falls down. Clearly, Maori and Aboriginie players are disadvantaged by it.

I'm sure a Maori team would be a strong one and probably could be well marketed, but the fact remains, they are already represented by the NZ side.

So are Australians in the Australian team.

 

[Copa]

He has a point though. Why should other players have the opportunity to double dip but not others who aren't so lucky to have grandparentage from other nations?

This is where the whole grandparent rule falls down. Clearly, Maori and Aboriginie players are disadvantaged by it.

So are Australians in the Australian team.

so should we have a team for each of the over 200 Australian Aboriginal nations?

 

[AuckMel]

so should we have a team for each of the over 200 Australian Aboriginal nations?

One would do.

What are you guys so afraid of?

Having as many players as possible involved in the game at the highest level is, good/great for the game.

 

[Copa]

One would do.

What are you guys so afraid of?

Having as many players as possible involved in the game at the highest level is, good/great for the game.

But they are separate nations, with different languages, practices and varying religious beliefs. In parts of Oz it isn't hard to find elderly aboriginal people who can't speak to one another because they can't speak english and they can't speak the other's language.

If you want a maori nation represented then the over 200 aboriginal nations should be represented.

 

[Big Bunny]

so should we have a team for each of the over 200 Australian Aboriginal nations?

200 nations in areas that play rugby league, 500 across the the continent, each with their own customs, language, laws, history, religious differences, national boundaries. Strictly there shouldn't be any reason for them to not participate as separate entities.

Personally I'm not a fan of it happening, nor am I fussed on the Maori, but they do have as much right as any other groups. It's their right to determine their own path just as it is the case for the Welsh nation that exists within the boundaries of another in the form of Great Britain, or the Cook Islands, another proud nation that comes under the jurisdiction of New Zealand. If the RLIF says no then that's that, but it is rather laughable that anyone on here thinks they know any better than those from the nations in question. I would never pretend to know what's best for a country I only have a cursory knowledge of, I'd have thought it reasonable that others on here were the same. Not only is that common sense, but it's good manners.