Pacific Cup 2024

[Blair]

I'm glad we use the word 'culture' or 'heritage' instead of 'race' when we talk about players choosing who to play for.

I remember my Maori teacher at Monrad Intermediate in PN being so proud of the NZ Maoris (the vernacular of the time) tour of Wales in 1982. He also looked his class squarely in the eye and added 'but I'm not comfortable with a race-based rugby side'.

It was quite raw back then, only a year after the Springbok Tour of course.

I also remember my old man going off during the international against Wales (which the 'Maoris' lost 25-18), 'wouldn't the All Blacks bowl these Welsh bastards!'

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

TBH, I don't think that Haas has the same mana (not sure of the Samoan equivalent word) amongst the NZ Samoans as what RTS has - he would be a bigger influence. And most of the Oz Samoans already play for Samoa anyway.

Actually yea fair point, RTS has massive standing doesn’t he. I think Gardiner said Roger was the catalyst for Nanai switching too.

 

[blue bags]

1000% they are having their cake and eating to

Play Origin to get the cash
Play for Samoa/ Tonga for the heritage/culture

Its double dipping to the fullest.
Make them tier 1 status and stop this rort otherwise let Kiwis play Origin then

Brad Thorne. Quadruple double double UPS

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Are there actually that many genuine should have played for NZ in this series players who played for Tonga? I don't think there is. There's Taumalolo, we all know why that Judas left, AFB is basically an Aussie-Tongan, Tui probably wouldn't have got a start with us anyway even with all our other 6's out, Havilli is the same, most of the others are Aussie, moved to Aussie young and eligible for Origin, and then Elesi Katoa is actually Tonga Tongan.

Probably not right at the moment, no. There are several NZ born guys who moved to Australia before age 10, where I couldn't really criticise them too much if they had chosen Australia over NZ (S Katoa, I Katoa, Kaufusi, Paseka). Lolohea and Havili are Kiwis (and literally ex-Kiwis) but they would've been no more than a sideways move from the makeshifts halves and hookers we already had. Australia may have stronger claims over the current Tongan squad than NZ does.

What concerns me is more the overall long term effect if all (or a vast majority of) Tonga and Samoa eligible players commit to Tonga and Samoa. Yes, I know we can cobble together essentially a Maori side with the occasional Pakeha and the odd Aussie-raised bloke who isn't in the Origin frame, like Crossland. Nevertheless, such a side is unlikely to be representative of the game in NZ - and I definitely have a bit of an Auckland bias on this because if you remove Samoa and Tonga eligible Aucklanders, you are left with almost no-one. Club footy in Auckland might as well be a feeder comp for Samoa and Tonga - how is that fair, and frankly, at what point does local footy become almost pointless and self-defeating for NZRL?

As a Kiwi I just think it's a rort that we as a rugby league playing nation can't select our own players, because they choose to play for countries who for all intents and purposes don't, and can't realistically be expected to, produce any players. I mean, it's not just that they "can't produce players" in the sense of players not developing their game in Tonga or Samoa, it's that they "can't produce players" in the sense of blokes who maybe just lived there a bit. And people will say "those countries do so much for the game" when they essentially do nothing. It's Bizarro World.

Anyway, I haven't got any solutions to propose for any of this, it just vexes me.

 

[Philip_Smith007]

Kiwi v PNG relegation/promotion game is after what would be considered the final Aussie vs Tonga?
Weird.

 

[JJ]

Probably not right at the moment, no. There are several NZ born guys who moved to Australia before age 10, where I couldn't really criticise them too much if they had chosen Australia over NZ (S Katoa, I Katoa, Kaufusi, Paseka). Lolohea and Havili are Kiwis (and literally ex-Kiwis) but they would've been no more than a sideways move from the makeshifts halves and hookers we already had. Australia may have stronger claims over the current Tongan squad than NZ does.

What concerns me is more the overall long term effect if all (or a vast majority of) Tonga and Samoa eligible players commit to Tonga and Samoa. Yes, I know we can cobble together essentially a Maori side with the occasional Pakeha and the odd Aussie-raised bloke who isn't in the Origin frame, like Crossland. Nevertheless, such a side is unlikely to be representative of the game in NZ - and I definitely have a bit of an Auckland bias on this because if you remove Samoa and Tonga eligible Aucklanders, you are left with almost no-one. Club footy in Auckland might as well be a feeder comp for Samoa and Tonga - how is that fair, and frankly, at what point does local footy become almost pointless and self-defeating for NZRL?

As a Kiwi I just think it's a rort that we as a rugby league playing nation can't select our own players, because they choose to play for countries who for all intents and purposes don't, and can't realistically be expected to, produce any players. I mean, it's not just that they "can't produce players" in the sense of players not developing their game in Tonga or Samoa, it's that they "can't produce players" in the sense of blokes who maybe just lived there a bit. And people will say "those countries do so much for the game" when they essentially do nothing. It's Bizarro World.

Anyway, I haven't got any solutions to propose for any of this, it just vexes me.

The bold part is 100% correct in so many contexts... and yeah, really good points more generally imo

 

[Matua]

Probably not right at the moment, no. There are several NZ born guys who moved to Australia before age 10, where I couldn't really criticise them too much if they had chosen Australia over NZ (S Katoa, I Katoa, Kaufusi, Paseka). Lolohea and Havili are Kiwis (and literally ex-Kiwis) but they would've been no more than a sideways move from the makeshifts halves and hookers we already had. Australia may have stronger claims over the current Tongan squad than NZ does.

What concerns me is more the overall long term effect if all (or a vast majority of) Tonga and Samoa eligible players commit to Tonga and Samoa. Yes, I know we can cobble together essentially a Maori side with the occasional Pakeha and the odd Aussie-raised bloke who isn't in the Origin frame, like Crossland. Nevertheless, such a side is unlikely to be representative of the game in NZ - and I definitely have a bit of an Auckland bias on this because if you remove Samoa and Tonga eligible Aucklanders, you are left with almost no-one. Club footy in Auckland might as well be a feeder comp for Samoa and Tonga - how is that fair, and frankly, at what point does local footy become almost pointless and self-defeating for NZRL?

As a Kiwi I just think it's a rort that we as a rugby league playing nation can't select our own players, because they choose to play for countries who for all intents and purposes don't, and can't realistically be expected to, produce any players. I mean, it's not just that they "can't produce players" in the sense of players not developing their game in Tonga or Samoa, it's that they "can't produce players" in the sense of blokes who maybe just lived there a bit. And people will say "those countries do so much for the game" when they essentially do nothing. It's Bizarro World.

Anyway, I haven't got any solutions to propose for any of this, it just vexes me.

What are the actual demographics in league in Auckland? Surely there's got to be a lot of Maori players because so many come through?

If not for the injuries this year our squad will have still had a healthy number of Samoans too - Leota, Brown, Mulitalo, NAS to go with Papali'i, Isaako, and Clark.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

What concerns me is more the overall long term effect if all (or a vast majority of) Tonga and Samoa eligible players commit to Tonga and Samoa. Yes, I know we can cobble together essentially a Maori side with the occasional Pakeha and the odd Aussie-raised bloke who isn't in the Origin frame, like Crossland. Nevertheless, such a side is unlikely to be representative of the game in NZ - and I definitely have a bit of an Auckland bias on this because if you remove Samoa and Tonga eligible Aucklanders, you are left with almost no-one. Club footy in Auckland might as well be a feeder comp for Samoa and Tonga - how is that fair, and frankly, at what point does local footy become almost pointless and self-defeating for NZRL?

I agree if we get more players switching it's not helpful for the Kiwis, but will it really affect domestic footy here that much?

We used to have players progressing into the Kiwis from the domestic scene, but now all our test players are drawn from NRL/SL clubs, who in turn recruit from school or age grade rep teams where youngsters are rarely thinking that far ahead; they're just after their first professional contract.

And if they're offered a age-grade rep spot somewhere along the way, they’ll generally take whatever is put in front of them first, often with no correlation to their eventual senior preference ala Benji playing for Aussie schoolboys.

Whatever happens with test allegiances I think club footy will just keep chugging along here regardless, because the guys at that level never have to make those sorts of decisions.

 

[Wheeled Warrior]

PNG winning would be lol

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

What are the actual demographics in league in Auckland? Surely there's got to be a lot of Maori players because so many come through?

If not for the injuries this year our squad will have still had a healthy number of Samoans too - Leota, Brown, Mulitalo, NAS to go with Papali'i, Isaako, and Clark.

I can't back this up with stats (which probably don't exist tbf) but I would say combined non-Maori Polynesians significantly outnumber Maori. As someone who attends Fox games throughout Auckland regularly I would consider it a predominantly Pasifika sport (although granted I'm not going around and interviewing all of the players on their genealogy).

This is always going to come down to personal choice and 100% of players are never going to go in one direction or the other, but if we reach a point where almost all Samoan and Tongan eligible players refuse to play for NZ I would suggest that is likely to be a massive issue for us.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I agree if we get more players switching it's not helpful for the Kiwis, but will it really affect domestic footy here that much?

We used to have players progressing into the Kiwis from the domestic scene, but now all our test players are drawn from NRL/SL clubs, who in turn recruit from school or age grade rep teams where youngsters are rarely thinking that far ahead; they're just after their first professional contract.

And if they're offered a age-grade rep spot somewhere along the way, they’ll generally take whatever is put in front of them first, often with no correlation to their eventual senior preference ala Benji playing for Aussie schoolboys.

Whatever happens with test allegiances I think club footy will just keep chugging along here regardless, because the guys at that level never have to make those sorts of decisions.

I wasn't saying club footy will die, I'm saying that Auckland club footy (mostly junior footy because realistically players who have made it to senior footy in NZ have often already missed the boat for an NRL contract) will effectively be a pathways system for the NRL, Tonga, and Samoa.

Again, I'm not saying anything will or can be done about this, I'm just saying that for me that's a perverse situation.

 

[shinobi]

Probably not right at the moment, no. There are several NZ born guys who moved to Australia before age 10, where I couldn't really criticise them too much if they had chosen Australia over NZ (S Katoa, I Katoa, Kaufusi, Paseka). Lolohea and Havili are Kiwis (and literally ex-Kiwis) but they would've been no more than a sideways move from the makeshifts halves and hookers we already had. Australia may have stronger claims over the current Tongan squad than NZ does.

What concerns me is more the overall long term effect if all (or a vast majority of) Tonga and Samoa eligible players commit to Tonga and Samoa. Yes, I know we can cobble together essentially a Maori side with the occasional Pakeha and the odd Aussie-raised bloke who isn't in the Origin frame, like Crossland. Nevertheless, such a side is unlikely to be representative of the game in NZ - and I definitely have a bit of an Auckland bias on this because if you remove Samoa and Tonga eligible Aucklanders, you are left with almost no-one. Club footy in Auckland might as well be a feeder comp for Samoa and Tonga - how is that fair, and frankly, at what point does local footy become almost pointless and self-defeating for NZRL?

As a Kiwi I just think it's a rort that we as a rugby league playing nation can't select our own players, because they choose to play for countries who for all intents and purposes don't, and can't realistically be expected to, produce any players. I mean, it's not just that they "can't produce players" in the sense of players not developing their game in Tonga or Samoa, it's that they "can't produce players" in the sense of blokes who maybe just lived there a bit. And people will say "those countries do so much for the game" when they essentially do nothing. It's Bizarro World.

Anyway, I haven't got any solutions to propose for any of this, it just vexes me.

I think if the Samoan Kiwis elect to play for Samoa then NZRL are going to have to lean heavily into the Maori heritage players and working more closely with NZMRL to develop these players from outside of Auckland otherwise really push hard to allow Aus born Kiwis to be eligible for Origin and the Kiwis. I mean can we just declare ourselves a tier 2 nation and be in the same boat as Samoa and Tonga? Why are we tier 1 when we dont have a pro league like England and Australia to draw players from? Theres no difference now between NZ, Samoa, Tonga as all our players are developed in the NRL and Superleague and any kid that is half decent gets shipped over at 15/16 from NZ anyways.

Speaking of tier 1 when PNG gets its own nrl team will that make them tier 1 as they would have a pro team and pathways with the Hunters?