Panthers want nrl to look at incentives for junior spending

[The_Frog]

Would it just be kit? What about staff (running clinics etc, maybe administration), helping out with other overheads.

I don’t know for sure, just spit-balling.

PR questioned $450k spent on clothing.

 

[The_Frog]

That's the major difference between the current Panthers side and other similar ones. Which brings me back to my question; how have they managed it when for almost 30 years now , if not longer, every other side has found it more or less totally impossible.

What is this almost 30 years cutoff? The last Raiders premiership? Its all I can think of that makes that cut off point significant. Just like the great Raiders side, we've got lucky with our development. The Raiders did it 50/50 development and imports and for over half a decade they were the ducks guts, because they were able to assemble that fantastic side. Excellent recruiting for sure, but fancy having Clyde, Daley and Lazarus come through your backyard as a fledgling club as well as bringing in Stuart, Meninga and Belcher (I know Stuart was a local boy but he was imported from Rugby, already an international).

The same thing has happened at Penrith in recent times, but the vast majority came up through our system. Api Koroisau is really the only imported player who is truly integral to the side. I think there's a certain amount of luck involved in both examples. The Penrith system is starting to show signs of bringing out excellence in its players, especially with the form of players who have left for greener pastures this year. But we'll have to wait and see if this burns itself out after a few years like the great Raiders side did.

 

[The Great Dane]

What is this almost 30 years cutoff? The last Raiders premiership? Its all I can think of that makes that cut off point significant.

Oh I don't know, maybe it's because almost 30 years ago the sport went from mainly semi-pro to fulltime professionalism...

Trying to compare today's environment to anything before the advent of professionalism is basically impossible because the influences on the players market are so radically different.

Just like the great Raiders side, we've got lucky with our development.

The great Raiders sides of the late 80s and early 90s were not great just because of development. They were great because the core of those sides were built pre-salary cap when most competition for the signatures of the players you really wanted to keep could more or less easily be seen off.

Post salary cap the Raiders/local Rugby scene was just as fruitful, but like everybody else but the current Panthers side, we've been consistently incapable of competing in the market for most of the best of them, and what we could keep we couldn't keep together for long because of salary cap pressures. The advent of the Brumbies effectively splitting the local talent pool in two definitely made things more difficult as well, but that's an aside.

Which again brings us back to where we started.

 

[siv]

The official definition of a RL junior

a player who becoming 15 has played 2 complete seasons with their District Clubs junior league

 

[Perth Red]

The official definition of a RL junior

a player who becoming 15 has played 2 complete seasons with their District Clubs junior league

Its a stupid definition based on when families never left their suburb.
What about the kid who plays up to 12 in Bears jnr region, family moves to perth and he plays for south perth club until 16 then into Pirates SG Ball, then gets signed by Panthers at 17 for the second year of SG ball and then into their reserves before making his first grade debut for Panthers. Whose he a jnr of?

 

[The_Frog]

Its a stupid definition based on when families never left their suburb.
What about the kid who plays up to 12 in Bears jnr region, family moves to perth and he plays for south perth club until 16 then into Pirates SG Ball, then gets signed by Panthers at 17 for the second year of SG ball and then into their reserves before making his first grade debut for Panthers. Whose he a jnr of?

Don't know, but we put a damn sight more work into him than the club he now plays for.

And Brighton Seagulls is surely in the St George district.

 

[soc123_au]

Surely you knew what I meant by fancy accounting... Don't pretend that it's not ubiquitous across the NRL, or that your side is above it.

The main reason the Raiders struggle to keep good players is the same reason all regional clubs do; the nature of the NRL's player market and salary cap rules are totally weighted in favour of Sydney and big city clubs.
No transfer windows, no draft, no incentives and protections for juniors development, having to pay overs just to get any player settled in Sydney (with the exception of those with literally not other choice) to move out of Sydney, etc, etc, etc. All those things add up, and the vast majority impact teams from smaller markets significantly more than the others, but this is a tangent that it's own massive discussion.

Of course I knew what you meant. If it was just about fancy accounting then you guys would be cheering. You pretty much debunk your own theory in your next paragraph.

Maybe?

What about the happy accident of BS short-sighted rule changes, that have completely f**ked the game to the point that most games are basically unwatchable in my opinion, effectively rigging the whole sport in the favour of teams that played Penrith's style of game... It's definitely not a coincidence that Penrith go from 10th in 2019 to almost undefeated minor premiers in 2020.

Pre the six again rule this Penrith side is being strangled out of the contest by most sides with a competent defence. Post six again they can rely on gifted unearned cheap possession and field position, and run riot as a result.

The fact that the Panthers were flat broke less than a decade ago and were a realistic chance of going bankrupt until Gus got old mate Jimmy Packer to more or less pay off all your debts, effectively allowing all of the club's bad business practices and overextending of themselves to go without consequences, was a massive boon as well. Your junior development and growth West would have at least crippled the club financially for years, if not decades, if not for that piece of charity that most other clubs could never, ever, even dream of having the good fortune of falling in their lap.

All of that, and more, seems to be more than 'maybe' a little bit lucky to me.

The rules changed for everyone. In 2020 for the first 6 weeks or so we couldn't buy a 6 again. I remember seeing a list mid season and we were given the least and were the most against. Last year we did alright, not sure where we ranked in the stats, but we absolutely exploited it giving away 6 agains to kill kick returns. Again, the rules were the same for everyone, some teams were too slow to adapt.

Our shit financial state pre Gus was the club concentration on building a leagues club empire and massively overspending on the renovations at the main club on Mulgoa Rd. The financier called in the loans after being taken over by a private equity firm and Packer bailed us out. No consequence is a fairy tale though. It was a loan and paid back when the club sold off some of it's assets, 3 or 4 of the clubs iirc. It had f**k all to do with the football operations. Thankfully the dickheads in charge of getting us in that position are gone and we are much better managed now. In any case getting Gus involved was good management, not just luck. Love him or hate him, he has plenty of clout and friends in the right places.

Other big juniors clubs have had periods of similar strike rates, the only difference is somehow Penrith have managed to keep all of Cleary, Luai, To'o, etc, when at other clubs three quarters, or more, of those guys would have ended up in other club's jerseys before they'd really had a chance to kick on as a team.

I mean sure the Tigers probably are a bad example, because they really are a shambles, but they are a recent example, and just look at what they've produced over the last roughly ten years, and imagine where they'd be now if they could somehow have keep even half of it together.

That's the major difference between the current Panthers side and other similar ones. Which brings me back to my question; how have they managed it when for almost 30 years now , if not longer, every other side has found it more or less totally impossible.

If the Tigers weren't such a basket case they probably keep the "big 4" We were lucky enough to be in a premiership window when the players you listed went from promising kids on minimum wage to established players. They all probably signed for a bit under what they could have got elsewhere, but maybe made it up in rep payments, third party deals etc. Plus a realistic chance of winning comps. They all also grew up together, and by all accounts that means something to them. It's been reported that Cleary's new deal has him earning less than he would have under his old deal. He wants to try and keep the squad together. Maybe he figures he will inherit a fair whack out of his old mans deal at some point so money isn't likely to ever be an issue for him.

Ha ha, you're not serious are you!

Sport is a business, loyalty is dead, and 99% of players aren't taking a cent less than what they are worth on the open market.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have the slightest issue with it, the players have short careers and good luck to them, but let's not kid ourselves.

Plenty of players take less to play for certain clubs. It was only reported yesterday Josh Jackson has requested a pay cut to help the Dogs.

 

[Tiger Shark]

Its a stupid definition based on when families never left their suburb.
What about the kid who plays up to 12 in Bears jnr region, family moves to perth and he plays for south perth club until 16 then into Pirates SG Ball, then gets signed by Panthers at 17 for the second year of SG ball and then into their reserves before making his first grade debut for Panthers. Whose he a jnr of?

So many promising players in the SG Ball go on to achieve nothing in the game, from when he left Perth and joined Penrith there was still alot of development left for him and Panthers should get alot of the credit for that imo.

He could have easily gone to a lesser club not known for junior development and not kicked on.

 

[Tiger Shark]

The official definition of a RL junior

a player who becoming 15 has played 2 complete seasons with their District Clubs junior league

Which is stupid. You're telling me a player who plays Harrold Matts, then SG Ball then goes on to first grade for the same club isn't that clubs junior. Please.

 

[Perth Red]

So many promising players in the SG Ball go on to achieve nothing in the game, from when he left Perth and joined Penrith there was still alot of development left for him and Panthers should get alot of the credit for that imo.

He could have easily gone to a lesser club not known for junior development and not kicked on.

My point exactly!

 

[seanoff]

Mate the Raiders accountant is Don Furners dog

Actually we don't really struggle to re-sign players. We just sign busted geezers to 25 year deals

It's attracting players in the first place

If you’re a star nrl player and Canberra offer you $1m and pretty much any club other the NQ offer you $100k less. You go to the other club.
I’ve lived in Canberra and pretty much any place other than Townsville I’d consider a better option.
It’s not the clubs fault. It just is what it is.

 

[siv]

Which is stupid. You're telling me a player who plays Harrold Matts, then SG Ball then goes on to first grade for the same club isn't that clubs junior. Please.

Matts was U15s

 

[siv]

Which is stupid. You're telling me a player who plays Harrold Matts, then SG Ball then goes on to first grade for the same club isn't that clubs junior. Please.

So whos junior is a player who starts in Matts with club 1 and the moves to club 2 in Flegg?

 

[Perth Red]

So whos junior is a player who starts in Matts with club 1 and the moves to club 2 in Flegg?

or plays Hm for one club, the SG ball for another, then jersey Flegg before making his NRL debut for a different club lol. The whole thing is a bit stupid really and clubs need to get over any sense of entitlement to players in development systems. If they all had to spend the same then it really wouldn't matter!

 

[Captain Apollo]

So many promising players in the SG Ball go on to achieve nothing in the game, from when he left Perth and joined Penrith there was still alot of development left for him and Panthers should get alot of the credit for that imo.

He could have easily gone to a lesser club not known for junior development and not kicked on.

Phil Gould once said at a speaking event I was at when he was Coaching Director at the Roosters, he told the then Jersey Flegg team that statistically only 1 out of 3 of them would go on to make it at first grade level as a full time career.

 

[RL The greatest game]

We need to spend more to augment our junior playing base

 

[Perth Red]

We need to spend more to augment our junior playing base

What do you mean by this? Do you mean the number of kids playing RL (participation rates) or improving the elite pathway for the best kids to become NRL players (development)?
People often mix the two and they are very very different from an investment and strategy point of view

 

[RL The greatest game]

What do you mean by this? Do you mean the number of kids playing RL (participation rates) or improving the elite pathway for the best kids to become NRL players (development)?
People often mix the two and they are very very different from an investment and strategy point of view

What i say.

 

[siv]

What do you mean by this? Do you mean the number of kids playing RL (participation rates) or improving the elite pathway for the best kids to become NRL players (development)?
People often mix the two and they are very very different from an investment and strategy point of view

Both many times depends on when they get poached