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Panthers want nrl to look at incentives for junior spending

Iamback

Referee
Messages
20,297
It still is about the narrative at moment. Clubs feel hard done to if a player is signed by another club as they feel they have invested in said player and got little return. If the narrative had been the NRl is paying for development then it takes away that feeling and would in all likelihood deepened the player development pool as clubs who currently dont spend the money would have had to.

If all sides pull their weight then the comp quality can lift.
Some suit and Tie in Sydney. Shouldn't tell NQ or Warriors who and what they spend their development money on
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,549
If all sides pull their weight then the comp quality can lift.
Some suit and Tie in Sydney. Shouldn't tell NQ or Warriors who and what they spend their development money on
yeh you're right lets leave it to the clubs, what could go wrong?
 

Pete Cash

Post Whore
Messages
62,165
If it was as simple as a bit of fancy accounting, your club should be a powerhouse. The Raiders aren't short of money, but still struggle to keep players.

Luck? maybe. It's pretty fortunate that we have had a talented group come through in pretty quick succession, but it's also fair to say that good management played it's part. Our strike rate historically has been pretty shit for the most part, and this lot are the first products to come through from the 14-15 age group with the benefit of the academy and other facilities we have in place. Pretty much every kid we have debuted in the last 5 years or so has either kicked on with us or another club. The ones before that such as Cartwright, Moylan, Jennings, Lewis, Coote, Graham etc had plenty of talent, but either didn't really reach their potential or had to go elsewhere to reach it. The talent management now is clearly better.

The players are obviously happy, they are winning and still getting a pretty decent payday. My guess would be that they are happy to be making a good living while playing with their mates, being in the conversation for Rep jerseys and having state of the art facilities. When they get to the point that the next kid comes through and looks likely to take their spot, they know the Dogs, Tigers etc will throw stupid money at them anyway.

Mate the Raiders accountant is Don Furners dog

Actually we don't really struggle to re-sign players. We just sign busted geezers to 25 year deals

It's attracting players in the first place
 

The_Frog

First Grade
Messages
6,390
Going back to the original article I'm interested to know how the Panthers spend $450k on clothing and why this seen as development costs?

8800 junior players is claimed on the Panthers site, male and female. How much do you reckon to outfit 8800 junior players? This works out just on $50 each which seems low, if anything.
 
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soc123_au

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
19,835
Mate the Raiders accountant is Don Furners dog

Actually we don't really struggle to re-sign players. We just sign busted geezers to 25 year deals

It's attracting players in the first place
Furners dog is too busy as game management coach to cook the books.

We don't attract many established players either. Although we aren't as disadvantaged as you guys on that front.
 

nick87

Coach
Messages
12,382
If it was as simple as a bit of fancy accounting, your club should be a powerhouse. The Raiders aren't short of money, but still struggle to keep players.


I say this a bloke who was born and rasied in penrith until 21 when i moved to Canberra and i genuinely LOVE both places!
Most rich, semi famous 18-30 year olds dont want to live in Canberra, even the ones who grew up here.
And to be perfectly frank, not many want to live in f**king penrith either. But you cant play for Canberra unless you live there. You can live on the North Shore, or Eastern Suburbs and play for Penrith. Pretty big difference.
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
17,849
If you wanna see why a rule change is shit you’ve just gotta think like a dodgy coach.

Guaranteed Bellamy would secure a top two finish then debut every rookie at the club. Means he can keep them cheaper and they’d be less attractive to other clubs.

And every struggling club would do the same once their season was over. The last few rounds would be a clusterf**k
 

soc123_au

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
19,835
I say this a bloke who was born and rasied in penrith until 21 when i moved to Canberra and i genuinely LOVE both places!
Most rich, semi famous 18-30 year olds dont want to live in Canberra, even the ones who grew up here.
And to be perfectly frank, not many want to live in f**king penrith either. But you cant play for Canberra unless you live there. You can live on the North Shore, or Eastern Suburbs and play for Penrith. Pretty big difference.
Yeah, you guys are on a hiding to nothing geographically. I've had some great times in Canberra, but I couldn't imagine living there. Those winters are brutal.

We have never really been what you would call a "destination" club and will never be able to compete with the Roosters, Manly etc on location, but like you said, you can still live there and play in Penrith, or live in Penrith and the CBD and beaches are only an hour or so away anyway. Penrith has come a long way in the last few years as well as a city and hopefully will continue to develop.
 

soc123_au

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
19,835
If you wanna see why a rule change is shit you’ve just gotta think like a dodgy coach.

Guaranteed Bellamy would secure a top two finish then debut every rookie at the club. Means he can keep them cheaper and they’d be less attractive to other clubs.

And every struggling club would do the same once their season was over. The last few rounds would be a clusterf**k
Make it a 5 game minimum.

No matter what you do some f**ker will exploit it, just need to find a way to keep the f**kery to a minimum.

The other exploit would be you have an 18yo in the system and he signs for another club before he has played NRL. Chuck him for 10 off the bench in a garbage game and f**k the other club from ever getting exemptions.
 

SBD82

Coach
Messages
17,849
Make it a 5 game minimum.

No matter what you do some f**ker will exploit it, just need to find a way to keep the f**kery to a minimum.

The other exploit would be you have an 18yo in the system and he signs for another club before he has played NRL. Chuck him for 10 off the bench in a garbage game and f**k the other club from ever getting exemptions.
Yeah exactly.

I tend to think that the NRL makes overly complex rules in response to simple problems. Which then leads to the coaches exploiting the rule and the NRL start the cycle again to fix the exploitation of the first rule.

Make it simple. Give all clubs a grant for X dollars for junior development, then trust them to do what they’ve always done, which is to take talented juniors and turn them into NRL players.

Or give the money directly to local footy clubs and let them do what they’ve always done - supply talented juniors to NRL clubs so that they can turn them into NRL players.
 
Messages
3,224
The issue isn't that clubs don't want to develop talent , of course they do .. its that some work way harder then others & have the players they've pumped resources into pinched by other clubs. Some protection for these " development " clubs is the key.
You will stop the club hopping too, create more one club players & keep fan engagement if you reward clubs for developing a young player & as he hits 50, 100 & 200 first grade games you get cap discounts to retain him. Then their is incentive to find talent & the clubs that pinch players won't be able to & have to get off their lazy asses & develop their own.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,549
8800 junior players is claimed on the Panthers site, male and female. How much do you reckon to outfit 8800 junior players? This works out just on $50 each which seems low, if anything.
Surely they’d be giving the money to panthers jnrs not funding it directly wouldn’t they? Anyone involved in a penrith jnr club fill us in if panthers buy the kits for all jnrs?
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
If it was as simple as a bit of fancy accounting, your club should be a powerhouse. The Raiders aren't short of money, but still struggle to keep players.
Surely you knew what I meant by fancy accounting... Don't pretend that it's not ubiquitous across the NRL, or that your side is above it.

The main reason the Raiders struggle to keep good players is the same reason all regional clubs do; the nature of the NRL's player market and salary cap rules are totally weighted in favour of Sydney and big city clubs.
No transfer windows, no draft, no incentives and protections for juniors development, having to pay overs just to get any player settled in Sydney (with the exception of those with literally not other choice) to move out of Sydney, etc, etc, etc. All those things add up, and the vast majority impact teams from smaller markets significantly more than the others, but this is a tangent that it's own massive discussion.
Luck? maybe.
Maybe?

What about the happy accident of BS short-sighted rule changes, that have completely f**ked the game to the point that most games are basically unwatchable in my opinion, effectively rigging the whole sport in the favour of teams that played Penrith's style of game... It's definitely not a coincidence that Penrith go from 10th in 2019 to almost undefeated minor premiers in 2020.

Pre the six again rule this Penrith side is being strangled out of the contest by most sides with a competent defence. Post six again they can rely on gifted unearned cheap possession and field position, and run riot as a result.

The fact that the Panthers were flat broke less than a decade ago and were a realistic chance of going bankrupt until Gus got old mate Jimmy Packer to more or less pay off all your debts, effectively allowing all of the club's bad business practices and overextending of themselves to go without consequences, was a massive boon as well. Your junior development and growth West would have at least crippled the club financially for years, if not decades, if not for that piece of charity that most other clubs could never, ever, even dream of having the good fortune of falling in their lap.

All of that, and more, seems to be more than 'maybe' a little bit lucky to me.
It's pretty fortunate that we have had a talented group come through in pretty quick succession, but it's also fair to say that good management played it's part. Our strike rate historically has been pretty shit for the most part, and this lot are the first products to come through from the 14-15 age group with the benefit of the academy and other facilities we have in place. Pretty much every kid we have debuted in the last 5 years or so has either kicked on with us or another club. The ones before that such as Cartwright, Moylan, Jennings, Lewis, Coote, Graham etc had plenty of talent, but either didn't really reach their potential or had to go elsewhere to reach it. The talent management now is clearly better.
Other big juniors clubs have had periods of similar strike rates, the only difference is somehow Penrith have managed to keep all of Cleary, Luai, To'o, etc, when at other clubs three quarters, or more, of those guys would have ended up in other club's jerseys before they'd really had a chance to kick on as a team.

I mean sure the Tigers probably are a bad example, because they really are a shambles, but they are a recent example, and just look at what they've produced over the last roughly ten years, and imagine where they'd be now if they could somehow have keep even half of it together.

That's the major difference between the current Panthers side and other similar ones. Which brings me back to my question; how have they managed it when for almost 30 years now , if not longer, every other side has found it more or less totally impossible.
The players are obviously happy, they are winning and still getting a pretty decent payday. My guess would be that they are happy to be making a good living while playing with their mates, being in the conversation for Rep jerseys and having state of the art facilities. When they get to the point that the next kid comes through and looks likely to take their spot, they know the Dogs, Tigers etc will throw stupid money at them anyway.
Ha ha, you're not serious are you!

Sport is a business, loyalty is dead, and 99% of players aren't taking a cent less than what they are worth on the open market.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have the slightest issue with it, the players have short careers and good luck to them, but let's not kid ourselves.
 
Last edited:
Messages
4,310
Surely you knew what I meant by fancy accounting... Don't pretend that it's not ubiquitous across the NRL, or that your side is above it.

The main reason the Raiders struggle to keep good players is the same reason all regional clubs do; the nature of the NRL's player market and salary cap rules are totally weighted in favour of Sydney and big city clubs.
No transfer windows, no draft, no incentives and protections for juniors development, having to pay overs just to get any player settled in Sydney (with the exception of those with literally not other choice) to move out of Sydney, etc, etc, etc. All those things add up, and the vast majority impact teams from smaller markets significantly more than the others, but this is a tangent that it's own massive discussion.

Maybe?

What about the happy accident of BS short-sighted rule changes, that have completely f**ked the game to the point that most games are basically unwatchable in my opinion, effectively rigging the whole sport in the favour of teams that played Penrith's style of game... It's definitely not a coincidence that Penrith go from 10th in 2019 to almost undefeated minor premiers in 2020.

Pre the six again rule this Penrith side is being strangled out of the contest by most sides with a competent defence. Post six again they can rely on gifted unearned cheap possession and field position, and run riot as a result.

The fact that the Panthers were flat broke less than a decade ago and were a realistic chance of going bankrupt until Gus got old mate Jimmy Packer to more or less pay off all your debts, effectively allowing all of the club's bad business practices and overextending of themselves to go without consequences, was a massive boon as well. Your junior development and growth West would have at least crippled the club financially for years, if not decades, if not for that piece of charity that most other clubs could never, ever, even dream of having the good fortune of falling in their lap.

All of that, and more, seems to be more than 'maybe' a little bit lucky to me.

Other big juniors clubs have had periods of similar strike rates, the only difference is somehow Penrith have managed to keep all of Cleary, Luai, To'o, etc, when at other clubs three quarters, or more, of those guys would have ended up in other club's jerseys before they'd really had a chance to kick on as a team.

I mean sure the Tigers probably are a bad example, because they really are a shambles, but they are a recent example, and just look at what they've produced over the last roughly ten years, and imagine where they'd be now if they could somehow have keep even half of it together.

That's the major difference between the current Panthers side and other similar ones. Which brings me back to my question; how have they managed it when for almost 30 years now , if not longer, every other side has found it more or less totally impossible.

Ha ha, you're not serious are you!

Sport is a business, loyalty is dead, and 99% of players aren't taking a cent less than what they are worth on the open market.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have the slightest issue with it, the players have short careers and good luck to them, but let's not kid ourselves.
Wow. You really needed to get that off your chest. Do you feel better now?
 
Messages
4,310
8800 junior players is claimed on the Panthers site, male and female. How much do you reckon to outfit 8800 junior players? This works out just on $50 each which seems low, if anything.
Would it just be kit? What about staff (running clinics etc, maybe administration), helping out with other overheads.

I don’t know for sure, just spit-balling.
 

Iamback

Referee
Messages
20,297
Surely you knew what I meant by fancy accounting... Don't pretend that it's not ubiquitous across the NRL, or that your side is above it.

The main reason the Raiders struggle to keep good players is the same reason all regional clubs do; the nature of the NRL's player market and salary cap rules are totally weighted in favour of Sydney and big city clubs.
No transfer windows, no draft, no incentives and protections for juniors development, having to pay overs just to get any player settled in Sydney (with the exception of those with literally not other choice) to move out of Sydney, etc, etc, etc. All those things add up, and the vast majority impact teams from smaller markets significantly more than the others, but this is a tangent that it's own massive discussion.

Maybe?

What about the happy accident of BS short-sighted rule changes, that have completely f**ked the game to the point that most games are basically unwatchable in my opinion, effectively rigging the whole sport in the favour of teams that played Penrith's style of game... It's definitely not a coincidence that Penrith go from 10th in 2019 to almost undefeated minor premiers in 2020.

Pre the six again rule this Penrith side is being strangled out of the contest by most sides with a competent defence. Post six again they can rely on gifted unearned cheap possession and field position, and run riot as a result.

The fact that the Panthers were flat broke less than a decade ago and were a realistic chance of going bankrupt until Gus got old mate Jimmy Packer to more or less pay off all your debts, effectively allowing all of the club's bad business practices and overextending of themselves to go without consequences, was a massive boon as well. Your junior development and growth West would have at least crippled the club financially for years, if not decades, if not for that piece of charity that most other clubs could never, ever, even dream of having the good fortune of falling in their lap.

All of that, and more, seems to be more than 'maybe' a little bit lucky to me.

Other big juniors clubs have had periods of similar strike rates, the only difference is somehow Penrith have managed to keep all of Cleary, Luai, To'o, etc, when at other clubs three quarters, or more, of those guys would have ended up in other club's jerseys before they'd really had a chance to kick on as a team.

I mean sure the Tigers probably are a bad example, because they really are a shambles, but they are a recent example, and just look at what they've produced over the last roughly ten years, and imagine where they'd be now if they could somehow have keep even half of it together.

That's the major difference between the current Panthers side and other similar ones. Which brings me back to my question; how have they managed it when for almost 30 years now , if not longer, every other side has found it more or less totally impossible.

Ha ha, you're not serious are you!

Sport is a business, loyalty is dead, and 99% of players aren't taking a cent less than what they are worth on the open market.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have the slightest issue with it, the players have short careers and good luck to them, but let's not kid ourselves.

😂😂😂 good rant and a load of dribble
 

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