Parramatta Eels Holden Cup & Junior Reps Thread Part III

[junior fan]

Don't mind a draft although can't see how the NRL will run junior development. They don't have the personnel or infrastructure to accomodate it. The ARU have proven it is fraught with danger their Gold Cup for 15s and 17s. It is a joke of a competition relying on volunteers to coach and manage many of whom aren't anywhere near qualified or competent enough. The end product will mean players who are ill prepared graduating into a draft at 18 due to substandard development, and result in a generation of substandard competition.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Don't mind a draft although can't see how the NRL will run junior development. They don't have the personnel or infrastructure to accomodate it.

Couldn't they just hire the best people currently employed by the clubs? The clubs would no longer need them.

 

[junior fan]

Couldn't they just hire the best people currently employed by the clubs? The clubs would no longer need them.

Possibly, where would they train? At the current clubs? Then why change the system?

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Possibly, where would they train? At the current clubs? Then why change the system?

What do you mean by 'at the current clubs'? They'll train on the same sporting fields / gyms that they do now.

We're talking about the 15s, 16s 18s here.

Why change the system? Because, aside from the one-team towns, the current system provides a f**ked up set of incentives, and discourages investment for fear of simply developing players for other clubs. The problem that the NRL will face is determining how to share the junior funding around.

 

[Chipmunk]

I agree in principle. The trick is going to be working out at what age players should enter the draft. A lot more 18 year olds in the AFL are potentially up to playing senior football. Bugger all league players are. But I guess is still the most logical age to do it.

Is the NRL and AFL still that much different in the percentage of players Under 20 who play in the First Grade team? I suggest in most instances that it is not that much different. I know that there was probably some disproportionate nunmber of 18 years playing when GWS and Gold Coast first came up, but I suggest that's settled down a bit.

 

[Chipmunk]

Why can't the existing junior clubs (organisations) just report to and through the NRL, rather than to a senior club? The NRL funds these clubs directly too.

The AFL don't have a problem with it.

In fairness to the AFL, Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood, etc. Don't have an Under 16, 18 or 20's team. They just play their drafted players in some NSW/Qld Cup equivalent team.

 

[Chipmunk]

Don't mind a draft although can't see how the NRL will run junior development. They don't have the personnel or infrastructure to accomodate it. The ARU have proven it is fraught with danger their Gold Cup for 15s and 17s. It is a joke of a competition relying on volunteers to coach and manage many of whom aren't anywhere near qualified or competent enough. The end product will mean players who are ill prepared graduating into a draft at 18 due to substandard development, and result in a generation of substandard competition.

Why can't every person currently involved in junior development just go and work for the ARL Commission, instead of the respective NRL club they currently do?

 

[Chipmunk]

Possibly, where would they train? At the current clubs? Then why change the system?

Seriously? The biggest issue of changing the junior structure is where they would train?

 

[hindy111]

It would make it exciting too. Trading up for picks for the next year etc... It would put a bit more thought on long term planing and if your team does finish last atleast you know you can pick the best player in your position most needed rather than waiting 2-3 years or having to pay overs.

AT present it takes 5yrs for a top of table club to be caught by a bottom club. It is almost impossible for team in the bottom 4 to compete with those in the top untill there side gets old. Look how manly and Melbourne have dominated for so long.
You can pick 6 of the top 8 before season starts for the next 4 yrs just about.

 

[hindy111]

Great i have a good idea and i dont give it its own thread!

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Is the NRL and AFL still that much different in the percentage of players Under 20 who play in the First Grade team? I suggest in most instances that it is not that much different. I know that there was probably some disproportionate nunmber of 18 years playing when GWS and Gold Coast first came up, but I suggest that's settled down a bit.

Presentation (see slides 5 and 6) shows that in 2011 only 1 18 year old debuted in the NRL and 7 19 year olds.

http://www.rugbyleague.com.au/nrlwelfare/files/CDAA_presentation_NRL_2012.pdfou can get away with physical maturity a lot more easily in Aussie Rules.

In Aussie Rules I reckon you'd find that 19 is the most common debut age (which is obviously a slightly different stat to those above).

 

[junior fan]

What do you mean by 'at the current clubs'? They'll train on the same sporting fields / gyms that they do now.

We're talking about the 15s, 16s 18s here.

Why change the system? Because, aside from the one-team towns, the current system provides a f**ked up set of incentives, and discourages investment for fear of simply developing players for other clubs. The problem that the NRL will face is determining how to share the junior funding around.

It's all too simplistic. In reality our junior rep coaches are supplemented by the likes of Cayless, Burt etc In roles for parramatta. Many other coaches are ex players for clubs. Unlikely they will just jump on the NRL development express for a pie and a coke. Sourcing new coaches will be difficult with a centralised based model. That experience and knowledge lies within the clubs.

Most junior reps team use club facilities, can't say I'd be overly impressed when talented youngsters are produced in our facilities to be drafted away. Love to see a corporate working example where your facilities are used to produce workers for a competitor.

Will there still be a 16s and 18s competition? What will they be badged as? Can't see young kids aspiring to play for the "NRL 16s somewhere west of the city Merkins" tribalism will be lost and no doubt some juniors to other codes.

What happens to the famed "Academies"? Assuming the coaching hits the middle group how are the top kids extended? Elite pathways and development I assume are gone and we produce sub standard athletes with basic skills nowhere near as developed as today's (Parras academy excluded).

Added the proposed abolishing of the NYC and all I see is the game struggling to produce anywhere near the athletes we (the game) have been developing.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

There would still be an under 20s comp, but it would be funded by the NRL rather than the clubs, and therefore the players wouldn't be the 'property' of the clubs either. All resources (staff, facilities, scholarships, signing bonuses) would be provided by the NRL. The big junior clubs (e.g. Wenty, Burleigh) would surely love to have NRL contracted junior stars playing in their 16s, 18s and 20s teams, along with use of NRL funded development staff.

 

[Chipmunk]

Presentation (see slides 5 and 6) shows that in 2011 only 1 18 year old debuted in the NRL and 7 19 year olds.

http://www.rugbyleague.com.au/nrlwelfare/files/CDAA_presentation_NRL_2012.pdfou can get away with physical maturity a lot more easily in Aussie Rules.

In Aussie Rules I reckon you'd find that 19 is the most common debut age (which is obviously a slightly different stat to those above).

Do you have the stats to back up what you reckon?

This article suggests that the average age of draftees is now over 20.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-12/the-matureage-move

 

[Chipmunk]

It's all too simplistic. In reality our junior rep coaches are supplemented by the likes of Cayless, Burt etc In roles for parramatta. Many other coaches are ex players for clubs. Unlikely they will just jump on the NRL development express for a pie and a coke. Sourcing new coaches will be difficult with a centralised based model. That experience and knowledge lies within the clubs.

Most junior reps team use club facilities, can't say I'd be overly impressed when talented youngsters are produced in our facilities to be drafted away. Love to see a corporate working example where your facilities are used to produce workers for a competitor.

Will there still be a 16s and 18s competition? What will they be badged as? Can't see young kids aspiring to play for the "NRL 16s somewhere west of the city Merkins" tribalism will be lost and no doubt some juniors to other codes.

What happens to the famed "Academies"? Assuming the coaching hits the middle group how are the top kids extended? Elite pathways and development I assume are gone and we produce sub standard athletes with basic skills nowhere near as developed as today's (Parras academy excluded).

Added the proposed abolishing of the NYC and all I see is the game struggling to produce anywhere near the athletes we (the game) have been developing.

So why are there plenty of rugby league players being produced in Queensland, country NSW and NZ without the issues you have raised above?

 

[Chipmunk]

There would still be an under 20s comp, but it would be funded by the NRL rather than the clubs, and therefore the players wouldn't be the 'property' of the clubs either. All resources (staff, facilities, scholarships, signing bonuses) would be provided by the NRL. The big junior clubs (e.g. Wenty, Burleigh) would surely love to have NRL contracted junior stars playing in their 16s, 18s and 20s teams, along with use of NRL funded development staff.

I'm sure these other clubs would get alot more fulltime and parttime paid staff to run their clubs also.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Do you have the stats to back up what you reckon?

Well, the list of 2013 AFL Debutantes here at the link below, shows 92 debutantes in that year. 19 were 18 years old. 30 are 19 years old (so already more than half are 18 or 19), 15 are 20 years old, 11 are 21, 10 are 22 and the remaining few are older.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AFL_debuts_in_2013


Seems pretty consistent with what I reckon.

2014 update, 50 out 83 debutantes were 18 or 19 with 30 of those being 19.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Do you have the stats to back up what you reckon?

This article suggests that the average age of draftees is now over 20.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-12/the-matureage-move

Average age of drafted and debuted....and they are talking simple averages, not the ages at which most players debut.

Most years there are one or two big positive outliers (e.g. there was a 29 year old debutante in 2013), which skew the mean because you can't have similar negative outliers (unless a 10 year old makes their debut). My 2013 and 2014 lists clearly show that more than 50 percent of debutantes are 18 or 19, and that 19 year olds are the biggest single group.

 

[junior fan]

So why are there plenty of rugby league players being produced in Queensland, country NSW and NZ without the issues you have raised above?

Like Travis Turnbull (Queensland), Ethan Parry (Tamworth) or Josh Alioai (NZ)? They are all brought in as 15/16 year olds to get the development at a club with the resources and infrastructure. the days of players coming from the bush at 21 and playing grade are well gone. Under the new structure these players won't be brought in and will "hopefully" make it through whatever structures might exist nearby.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Like Travis Turnbull (Queensland), Ethan Parry (Tamworth) or Josh Alioai (NZ)? They are all brought in as 15/16 year olds to get the development at a club with the resources and infrastructure. the days of players coming from the bush at 21 and playing grade are well gone. Under the new structure these players won't be brought in and will "hopefully" make it through whatever structures might exist nearby.

What's stopping the NRL from scouting them and bringing them into the nearest 'academy'?