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Pressure-on-knights-to-retain-back-rowers

macavity

Referee
Messages
20,606
The thing we need to accept is that our cap figures will always be "overs" for EVERYONE as their entire remuneration goes on our cap.

When other clubs have close to $100k extra for each of their top 25 in TPAs, and that is what we are bidding against, we literally have no capacity to sign anyone for "reasonable" dollars when there is ANY other bidder, unless the player is not even considering leaving, and even then their manager will still have them expecting similar dollars to what they can get elsewhere. Only locals or country boys (or more to the point players who can't get a gig elsewhere) are serious options for us.

There seems to be no acknowledgement of this fact here. It is the governing principle for our cap management now. We simply need to stop expecting to be able to even compete - the comp is rigged now. 10th is the goal these days.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,371
Is $130k a year for Pauli Pauli overs?

Other clubs having TPAs doesn't change the fact that the cap management is diabolical.
This football GM we signed from Cronulla seems good at picking up guys that are being moved on from other clubs at a discount, need plenty more of that.
 

Spot On

Coach
Messages
13,902
The thing we need to accept is that our cap figures will always be "overs" for EVERYONE as their entire remuneration goes on our cap.

When other clubs have close to $100k extra for each of their top 25 in TPAs, and that is what we are bidding against, we literally have no capacity to sign anyone for "reasonable" dollars when there is ANY other bidder, unless the player is not even considering leaving, and even then their manager will still have them expecting similar dollars to what they can get elsewhere. Only locals or country boys (or more to the point players who can't get a gig elsewhere) are serious options for us.

There seems to be no acknowledgement of this fact here. It is the governing principle for our cap management now. We simply need to stop expecting to be able to even compete - the comp is rigged now. 10th is the goal these days.

I've acknowledged that ad nauseum but we must also admit paying a winger 500K for example is piss poor cap management. If the cap is ever 'balanced' across the squad we can buy players, granted we will never have the ability to purchase a team of rep players like the top 5 clubs have year after year.

Yes 10th will be a successful campaign unless Brown is an absolute genius.
 
Messages
17,035
Really, our only chance of ever winning the comp again is for a crop of awesome young guys to burst on the scene at once, who are all loyal and one of those young guys being a gun half.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
26,545
Really, our only chance of ever winning the comp again is for a crop of awesome young guys to burst on the scene at once, who are all loyal and one of those young guys being a gun half.

We've got a great crop coming through right now, but we're not off to a good start with Tapine. My bet is that even under these optimal conditions, most of our best are going to get taken before they offer any value in first grade as a unit.
 

macavity

Referee
Messages
20,606
I've acknowledged that ad nauseum but we must also admit paying a winger 500K for example is piss poor cap management. If the cap is ever 'balanced' across the squad we can buy players, granted we will never have the ability to purchase a team of rep players like the top 5 clubs have year after year.

Yes 10th will be a successful campaign unless Brown is an absolute genius.

On Aku:

At the time he was signed, he would have attracted 500k+ offers from other clubs if he hit the market - not all of it on the cap of course.

We wanted to keep our shining light / fan favourite / home grown son.

I completely understand the signing.

They could not have known he would go to shit.

On our cap management:

Hindsight is beautiful. I don't think our cap management is as bad as you guys would like to make out - it is simply a matter that we are now feeling the full effects of the TPA uneven playing field which means we have had to pay "OVERS" for basically everyone we have signed since the rules allowed the unevenness came into place, excluding unproven/unheralded rookies - whether in house or external.

Meaning we have to fill squads with very young players.

Look at who we are/were paying "overs" - they are the guys who, at the time of singing, would have been of interest to other clubs via either potential (Matautia, Clydesdale who we all thought would kick on) or proven status (Mullo, Aku, Gags).

Look at who we have at "market value" - guys who there wasn't huge demand for and kicked on since they last signed - Rochow, Korbin.... players who may have potential but haven't really done anything of note - Mamo, Fitzgibbon, Feeney... or players no one else really wants (too many to list).

This is the new reality of being a Knights fan - basically the club needs to pay "overs" to the right "stars" (in reality, the "good but not quite star" players like Hokko, Mullo and Tariq).... hope they get that right (no injuries, no Aku-itis, no Roberts brain farts), then hope our unheralded kids (often left overs after the eyes are picked out of our area) grow an extra leg to compete at NRL level.... and then watch as the kids who do kick on are poached by (or have their prices inflated by) basically any other club in the comp, all of whom can throw more cash at them (Tapine).

I agree with the club putting values to players and sticking to those values to try to balance the cap, because we really have no other option but to try to have some sort of system to counter the inequality in the cap - but we need to recognise that is going to mean losing a lot of players we want to keep - because for us, "market value" (meaning what others will pay) is almost always going to be "overs".

We need to find value and utility in the guys no one wants - meaning we are also going to have to be used to a lot of player turnover, because they are likely to be gone as soon as they are off contract and someone wants them.

All this to accomplish the grand goal of finishing 10th.

It isn't changing until we get a level playing field.

As for Pauli Pauli, 130k would have been fair when he signed the deal, but he is in the last year of it, isn't he? What is he getting next deal if he kicks on and attracts interest?

I know I am the resident merchant of melancholy, but I'm not wrong and you are kidding yourself if you don't acknowledge the reality.
 

Spot On

Coach
Messages
13,902
No Mac you are not wrong. It is the reality of the situation.

However, we must have some hope that the coach can re - balance the cap and keep quality players in key positions long term (and they must effing perform mind you) and continue to look for decent recruits at fair price (Pauli) while pouring time and good coaching into our juniors. Without TPA's that's the best we can hope for.

For mine a club paying 2 million for Tapine is a one off and quite frankly, unheard of for a bloke with his resume.

You know there's every chance that if Brown can teach the squad how to actually defend well during a game of league the team may just do a little better than we all think.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,371
Pauli's deal is 2 years.

If you think that paying a bloke who can't tackle $575k a season to play centre is smart business this conversation isn't going anywhere.

And "the big clubs stealing our juniors" is a fallacy. We don't produce anyone of quality anymore. Where are these juniors running around for other clubs than were stolen? Cordner and...

No one is saying the top 5 or 6 clubs don't have a crazy advantage, but that means the Knights have to be smarter. The brains trust of midley, hages and stone certainly weren't that. Even the superfraud bennett saw fit to give roberts 400k a year FFS.

More guys like hilder, de gois, taia etc. Less handing out upgrades like confetti.
 
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macavity

Referee
Messages
20,606
And "the big clubs stealing our juniors" is a fallacy. We don't produce anyone of quality anymore. Where are these juniors running around for other clubs than were stolen? .

Josh Jackson, Kurt Mann, Will Smith, Latrell Mitchell, go back further, Greg Bird, Greg Inglis.... All guys who should be in red and blue and would make our 13.

Not saying it's not exaggerated, but it still happens.
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
26,545
Would anyone say no to getting Smithy back if Brown doesn't work out? He's the only bloke who had our club figured out since The Wok was pulling the strings.
 
Messages
3,000
It's easier keeping guys like Tariq compared to Tapine because they have a young family and are a bit more settled in life. Money is important for them, but they also understand the value of living somewhere like Newcastle compared to chasing the dollars or moving to a big city like Sydney. The amount of players who came here in their 30s and never left is a good advertisement for the Newcastle lifestyle.

A huge chunk of players that came from Sydney in the early years never left. The likes of Butts, Glanville and Michael Hagan.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,371
Inglis never played for the Knights and Bowraville is closer to QLD than Newie. Latrell Mitchell didn't make the cut for our Harold Matts side, LOL.

Pretty sure we let Kurt Mann and Will Smith go too.

Fair enough Josh Jackson and Bird, but Bird despises the place for some reason.

16 year old kids on the mid-north coast wouldn't see the Knights as their team because we have sucked for as long as they can remember, too young for Joey etc.

Think the ship has sailed for Smith in the NRL. At least he tried something different though, and it seemed to be working.
 
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perverse

Referee
Messages
26,545
Think the ship has sailed for Smith in the NRL. At least he tried something different though, and it seemed to be working.

Why do you think that, out of interest? Think he's past his used by date strategically?

I think he had the right blueprint, and if he came back and did it again with the tools that are on offer in our juniors at the moment, I think he could make an even better go of it. Having said that, Brown is doing interesting things too, so time will tell there.
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,371
Why do you think that, out of interest? Think he's past his used by date strategically?

Yep exactly. His last few years at the Roosters it looked like the game had passed him by, and he's been out of the NRL for five years now?

You could potentially bring him in as a director of football, but he's a weird sort of character and it would only undermine Brown who, as you say, is doing some interesting things of his own.
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,521
With browny picking young guys like Bhana and the Saifitis it puts guys like Rochow on notice, if you don't perform, don't expect an automatic upgrade like you would've got in the past, expect a stint in NSW cup instead
 

slotmachine

First Grade
Messages
7,371
Rochow actually been asked to take a pay cut because 2017 cap situation is so bad, according to Barry toohey.
 

Spot On

Coach
Messages
13,902
2016 cap - 6.8 mill + 600K marquee allowance + 300K veteran player allowance. 80K min wage.
2017 cap - 7 mill + 600K marquee allowance + 300K veteran allowance. 80K min wage.

460K cap for players outside the top 25 who might play in the firsts.

Apparently we have very limited TPA if any.

Uate - 500K
Snowden 400K?
Mullo - 550K
Hodko - 600K
Sione - 400K?
Gags - 575K
Rochow -
Smith -
Randall -
Mamo -
McManus -
Tariq -
Korbin -
Stockwell -
Chanel -
Pat M -
Pauili - 130K for 2016 (is that right?)
Paea -
Mataora -
Ross -


I'm assuming the following are not on much atm:

Levi, Safiti x 2, Bhana, Feeney, ?????


Can someone fill in the blanks???

At a quick glance I can see close to 6.8 million spent there adding in what I think those without a number may be earning or close to earning.

That Uate figure makes me physically ill and I dare say Nathan Brown is having sleepless nights thinking about it.
 
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Spot On

Coach
Messages
13,902
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...of-thirdparty-agreements-20150712-giaex4.html


I missed this article by Masters last year re the 'shadow market'. As always, a very good and insightful read about the huge advantages a few clubs have over the rest.


At one very successful club, the TPA arrangement works like this – the club CEO, the football manager and the player's agent sit down together and negotiate the amounts of money which will appear on the player's contract.
These are the monies, such as club payments and marquee player allowance, which will be registered with the NRL.
The club CEO then leaves the room and the player's agent and the football manager negotiate the TPA.
If a TPA is likely to raise suspicions with the NRL salary cap officer, it will not be registered and the money will be paid as a separate arrangement with the player.
For example, a prominent business sponsoring a player ranked last in a club's top 25 players would attract the attention of the NRL, who would reasonably ask: why is the company not sponsoring a high-profile player to promote its business?
There is no limit to the monetary total of registered TPAs because the NRL quite reasonably does not want to restrict the flow of funds from outside its normal sources of revenue – broadcasting fees, naming rights sponsorships, gate takings and club memberships.
However, salary cap space is very tight and a club may see promise in its 25th-ranked player but be unable to make a competitive payment to retain him. Far better to approach a benevolent supporter of the club who doesn't need business exposure and has a spare $50,000.
However, because the "shadow market" is clandestine and its size moves with the amount of heat generated by the player managers, clubs are always in the dark, so to speak.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...agreements-20150712-giaex4.html#ixzz41REo2v93
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook
 

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