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QRL plan to replace U20 NYC with Qld/NSW Cup

nqcowboy87

Bench
Messages
4,181
What a load of nonsense.

Since when has the Queensland Cup been "an open age reserve grade" ? It is a stand alone competition played between clubs with proud traditions, many far more than the majority of NRL clubs. This wonderful competion and its BRL and Brisbane predecessors date back to 1909 as do some of the clubs involved in it.

People go to Queensland Cup games to support their club - what the bloody hell has NRL got to do with it ? I've been going to Wynnum Manly games for 50 years and to suggest that their games should be played at NRL venues rather than the cauldron of Kougari Oval or at other wonderful Rugby League grounds like Langlands Park or Dolphin Oval is a total insult.

see this is why a national reserved grade comp wouldnt work, cause the ex brl sides in the qcup like norths, easts wouldnt want their teams to be put furhter own the rung like they where when the broncos came in
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
28,083
Let me get this straight.

The QRL are the only body that are standing in the way of the IC forming, yet they are trying to dictate what/how/where they NYC should be played??

Sorry Ross you cant have it both ways mate. Either sign up or shut up.

Easy solution Ross relinquish all control that the QRL has with the NRL/ARL/NSWRL cut ties and run your own backwater comp.
 

XXXX Cap

Juniors
Messages
1,266
It's not necessarily where the clubs are on the rung - it's this perceived need that everything must relate to the NRL.

These clubs existed before the NRL and the majority now only have limited numbers of NRL contracted players going around. The Intrust Super (Queensland) Cup is the premier competition in Queensland, not an underling to anything else.

The NRL can create Under 20's, Reserve Grade, C Grade - whatever they want and the Queensland Cup will still remain the top competition in Queensland with these great clubs striving their best to win it.

It doesn't need to be played at NRL venues, it doesn't need a play-off with the NSW Cup winners - it is already a great comp the way it is.
 

Titanic

First Grade
Messages
5,935
C'mon Fourex... I agree with all of that except Wynnum whacking Newtown on GF day would be the icing on the cake, surely?
 

bobbis

Juniors
Messages
798
There should be a 2nd tier competition based around the Qld and NSW cups. It shouldn't be an attempt at reserve grade though. The clubs wouldn't be aligned on the same poor geographical lines as the NRL and they'd play at home not as a fixture prior to the main NRL games. There's plenty of markets especially in Qld that can support a semi professional side but not an NRL team, this is the competition for them. There's also plenty of Sydney and Brisbane clubs with a good history that just aren't big enough for the NRL. Its also a place to groom expansion clubs.

There's more interest in watching Wynum than there is in watching Broncos reserves. RL would be stupid not to take advantage of existing supporter bases.
 

typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,478
What a load of nonsense.

Since when has the Queensland Cup been "an open age reserve grade" ? It is a stand alone competition played between clubs with proud traditions, many far more than the majority of NRL clubs. This wonderful competion and its BRL and Brisbane predecessors date back to 1909 as do some of the clubs involved in it.

People go to Queensland Cup games to support their club - what the bloody hell has NRL got to do with it ? I've been going to Wynnum Manly games for 50 years and to suggest that their games should be played at NRL venues rather than the cauldron of Kougari Oval or at other wonderful Rugby League grounds like Langlands Park or Dolphin Oval is a total insult.
The QLD cup will be the premier competition in QLD whether or not they are feeder clubs for the NRL which is just an evolved version of the NSWRL. I agree with you the QLD Cup as it was before the Broncos entered can be a stand alone competition. Besides there are only 3 QLD NRL teams compared to a whole competition worth of QLD Cup teams so it doesn't work.

You need 3 national tiers for the NRL it has been that way for a LONG LONG time and it was successful, all of a sudden we have only two plus two state cups and the talent on the ground is shallow. The QLD Cup shouldn't been contorted to fit what the NRL want they should just be in charge of making sure talent continues to flow out of Queensland.
 

XXXX Cap

Juniors
Messages
1,266
The QLD Cup shouldn't been contorted to fit what the NRL want

Exactly. Queensland Cup teams owe absolutely nothing to the NRL or its clubs.

Some of the Qld Cup teams were getting crowds of 20000+ thirty years ago to Lang Park. Now many NRL games with pages and pages of newspaper coverage and other media saturation can't get antwhere near that. Brisbane's population has doubled in that time.

To their credit, these clubs have battled on with near zero media attention and retain strong supporter bases.
 

Spitty

Juniors
Messages
1,113
The only reason we have a NYC is because the standard of the NSW Cup had sunk so low that it wasn't a good farming ground for the out of NRL talent. Basically clubs were just holding onto old hard heads and there was no room for youth to move forward. It had crap all to do with Qld, they'd run there comp well and had no problem farming out there out of NRL talent. Qld just got dragged into the NYC by the NRL to try and prop up the inability of the NSWRL to run an effective feeder competition.

But as for talent going straight from NYC to NRL and not via the relevant state cup, thats the decision of the individual club, it's got nothing to do with the structure of the league's.
 

XXXX Cap

Juniors
Messages
1,266
Why is the NSW Cup so ordinary ? By my understanding, they have 11 NRL clubs placing their excess players with teams in that competition. Comparatively, there are only 5 NRL clubs associated with Queensland Cup teams.

Geoff Carr would have everyone believe that the NSW Cup will be fixed if there were 13 NRL clubs feeding it and only 3 for the Queensland Cup.
 

lturner

Juniors
Messages
235
Why is the NSW Cup so ordinary ? By my understanding, they have 11 NRL clubs placing their excess players with teams in that competition. Comparatively, there are only 5 NRL clubs associated with Queensland Cup teams.

Geoff Carr would have everyone believe that the NSW Cup will be fixed if there were 13 NRL clubs feeding it and only 3 for the Queensland Cup.

Personally I don't think the quality of the games in the NSW Cup is that bad.

The organisation of the competition seems pretty poor though, and it suffers from a bit of an identity crisis, because it's made up of some reserve-grade teams from NRL clubs (same name, jersey etc), some genuine stand-alone clubs who want to exist for their own sake and have an actual support base (ie Newtown, North Sydney) and some stand-alone clubs which are primarily feeder sides for an NRL club and would cease to play at this level if they lost the support of their NRL club (eg Sydney Bulls from last year).

The second-tier comp/comps, however it ends up, need to balance the 2 competing requirements of (1) being able to accommodate excess players from the NRL, and (2) be an interesting and viable competition in it's own right.
 

XXXX Cap

Juniors
Messages
1,266
The second-tier comp/comps, however it ends up, need to balance the 2 competing requirements of (1) being able to accommodate excess players from the NRL, and (2) be an interesting and viable competition in it's own right.

Which the Queensland Cup is already doing very well.

My comment on the NSW Cup being ordinary is based on comments by others - I've never seen enough of it to know.

It's the Newtowns and North Sydneys with passionate support bases that create good competitions. Clubs set up just to be a feeder seem to lack something. Sunshine Coast is a borderline example up here.
 

lturner

Juniors
Messages
235
Which the Queensland Cup is already doing very well.

My comment on the NSW Cup being ordinary is based on comments by others - I've never seen enough of it to know.

It's the Newtowns and North Sydneys with passionate support bases that create good competitions. Clubs set up just to be a feeder seem to lack something. Sunshine Coast is a borderline example up here.

Agreed that Q-Cup is currently doing very well, but it would seem from recent media comments that our friends in the QRL want to further raise it's profile and the profile of the Q-Cup clubs, so it seems some changes are coming.

Just on the Sunshine Coast, are they the same as the previous Sunshine Coast Falcons, or a different club altogether?
 

Seagullsrock

Juniors
Messages
1,579
Agreed that Q-Cup is currently doing very well, but it would seem from recent media comments that our friends in the QRL want to further raise it's profile and the profile of the Q-Cup clubs, so it seems some changes are coming.

Just on the Sunshine Coast, are they the same as the previous Sunshine Coast Falcons, or a different club altogether?

SC are run by Manly.
 

XXXX Cap

Juniors
Messages
1,266
Just on the Sunshine Coast, are they the same as the previous Sunshine Coast Falcons, or a different club altogether?

I think they are the same club - just re-labelled Sea-Eagles because of the Manly connection. Before joining with Manly, they only played the FOGS lower grades and struggled to win many games.
 

Titanic

First Grade
Messages
5,935
The Sunshine Coast problem is rooted in the fact that historically they play their rep games north with Maryborough, Bundaberg etc and never had the exposure they probably warranted. Any quality players they attracted went there for the lifestyle rather than the footy. Their first foray into the Qld Cup was a fair effort off the park but they didn't have the full support of their member clubs so their team suffered accordingly. Livermore let them wither on the vine along with the Vipers and rightly or wrongly it has taken an NRL franchise to kick-start them.

Personally, the lack of foresight and investment in the infrastructure of Qld country rugby league by the QRL (read Brisbane-centric RL here) is disheartening. Yes, I know they have development officers all over the place but those guys are useless unless they have quality administration to hang off and their primary focus is as conduits to NRL clubs.

Some of the old heads that post here will remember the to-ing and fro-ing by the same QRL guys when the Broncos were first mooted. What deal was eventually struck for the real benefit of rugby league in Qld and at what cost to the BRL comp? Wests, Valleys and Brothers for a start ... not necessarily just because of the establishment of the Bronco's but because of the model they agreed to.

Then remember the knee-jerk farce that was the Crushers when under the cover of darkness their toy turned around and bit them. The AFL got their expansion model right in South Australia when the SAFL took total ownership of the Crows, imho.

The most amazing part is that through all of that the same personalities are still there and under the guise of representing Qld are preventing an independent commission. For the record I am not sure about the commission proposal but I am certain that the sport needs fresh leadership.
 

XXXX Cap

Juniors
Messages
1,266
Some of the old heads that post here will remember the to-ing and fro-ing by the same QRL guys when the Broncos were first mooted. What deal was eventually struck for the real benefit of rugby league in Qld and at what cost to the BRL comp? Wests, Valleys and Brothers for a start ... not necessarily just because of the establishment of the Bronco's but because of the model they agreed to.

Then remember the knee-jerk farce that was the Crushers when under the cover of darkness their toy turned around and bit them. The AFL got their expansion model right in South Australia when the SAFL took total ownership of the Crows, imho.

.

Correct.
 

Talanexor

Juniors
Messages
1,798
The NSWRL and QRL are holding the game back IMO. I don't care about their proud traditions.

If each NRL team had a first grade squad, an open-age reserve grade squad and a developmental u20's squad, there would be huge benefits for all concerned.

The fans get to enjoy three games of football for the price of one ticket, and get to see talented up-and-comers that most mainstream fans don't know exist.

The clubs therefore get bigger crowds whilst sharing the costs of stadium leasing, drastically improving the financial position of most clubs.

The NRL can sell the TV rights for each competition separately. Because the reserve-grade and u20's teams are aligned with an NRL team, there would still be a market for it, especially with the lack of decent content on the new digital channels.

For example, I would rather watch 3 Cowboys games per week - even if 2 were delayed - than sit through Cronulla vs Newcastle.

More importantly though, it would create a viable, watchable reserve competition. As it stands, players either make the transition from NYC to first grade or they fade into obscurity.
 

Seagullsrock

Juniors
Messages
1,579
The NSWRL and QRL are holding the game back IMO. I don't care about their proud traditions.

If each NRL team had a first grade squad, an open-age reserve grade squad and a developmental u20's squad, there would be huge benefits for all concerned.

The fans get to enjoy three games of football for the price of one ticket, and get to see talented up-and-comers that most mainstream fans don't know exist.

The clubs therefore get bigger crowds whilst sharing the costs of stadium leasing, drastically improving the financial position of most clubs.

The NRL can sell the TV rights for each competition separately. Because the reserve-grade and u20's teams are aligned with an NRL team, there would still be a market for it, especially with the lack of decent content on the new digital channels.

For example, I would rather watch 3 Cowboys games per week - even if 2 were delayed - than sit through Cronulla vs Newcastle.

More importantly though, it would create a viable, watchable reserve competition. As it stands, players either make the transition from NYC to first grade or they fade into obscurity.[/QUOTE]

1. Good for you but others do.

2. Why does everyone have to be a 'mainstream' fan i.e. an NRL fan and what about the people who don't want to pay ridiculous amounts of money to watch 3 games in a concrete monolith? There are plenty of people like myself who wouldn't give a f**k how a NRL team is going.

3. I don't believe Matt Gillett, Greg Inglis, Billy Slater..... came from the NYC did they and once again fading from obscurity to you is not seeing them on an NRL field. There are plenty of ex-NRL players running around in the Qld and NSW Cups and that is the beauty of the comp particularly in Qld. The old, experienced hardheads get to play with the young, upcoming players, thus, it assists the development of those players and the game. Under your current system, there is no change to the state of the game in NSW at the moment. Alot of the NSW Cup teams are 'open age reserve grade' teams. Kids are being put straight into the NRL from the NYC and they are not physically nor mentally prepared. Guys like Inglis have had that grounding playing against the older players which they require by playing in the Qld Cup.

There are plenty of other flaws in your argument but its a waste of time pointing them out to Sydney centric people like yourself.
 
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typicalfan

Coach
Messages
15,478
Well one of the traditions is 3 games on game day and that is a tradition that should return. I don't believe Billy Slater or Greg Inglis played when the NYC was formed but are you saying we have developed no potential stars from the NYC?

Josh Dugan, Lachlan Coote, Alex Glenn, Joel Thompson, Matt Duffie, Kevin Locke, Andrew McCullough, Jamal Idris, Nathan Gardner, Joseph Tomane, Kieran Foran, Russell Packer, Daniel Vidot, Daniel Mortimer, Sam McKendry, Kyle Stanley, Kane Linnett to name a few, a pretty good crop over two and a bit years.

If I go back to 2003 in the early years of Billy Slater and compare that to Coote and Dugan I would take the two from the NYC easily.

Fact is the QLD cup don't want to fall further down the rung but unfortunately it is a state competition getting in the way of a national one by getting in the way of a national reserve competition. The QLD Cup can still exist and will anyway if you would rather support your own QLD team over an NRL one good for you big whoop, plenty of country areas do the same even though their competitions are far inferior to the QLD Cup.

I think the funniest bit though is declaring anyone else "centric".
 

nqcowboy87

Bench
Messages
4,181
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/were-selling-our-soul/story-e6frext9-1225893319275

We're selling our soul

By Ricky Stuart From: The Sunday Telegraph July 17, 2010 12:00AM
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WHO knows when it started spiralling out of control? Away from what we used to know.

It first struck me back when I was coaching the Roosters and Craig Fitzgibbon, one of the great warriors, was practising his goalkicking after training.

"Hey," one of our young players yelled at him, "kick us one of your balls."

Fitzy gave him a look that suggested he would rather rip his arm off and slap some sense into him with it.

Maybe he should have, in hindsight. Respect and responsibility are missing from too many of our young players today.

In some respects it's not their fault. It's ours. We give them too much money. We bring them into first grade too early.

We allow them to believe they are better than they really are because so much of playing first-grade football is about confidence and we need them to be confident in our team.



In every sense they are professionals.

In every sense but the right sense.

We have abused the word professional in modern rugby league.

A kid shows some application for five minutes in a game on Sunday afternoon and we applaud him for being professional. He makes a play that brings us to our feet and we say it's because he's so professional.

We carry on like this when those of us who have been around for more than five minutes know that professionals don't clock off.

Professionals are men like Craig Fitzgibbon, there after training practising his skills well after the unprofessional players have gone home. Some time ago it changed.

I believe the reason it changed is because of the salary cap and the pressure it brings on how clubs are forced to spend their money.

Because of that pressure we are not spending what money we have the correct way.

The problem then affects us in two vital areas.

It's relevant now because of last week's events surrounding Melbourne's salary cap fiasco.

I have heard a lot of argument about the salary cap and how it promotes cheating, and how if we bring in concessions it will stop the need to cheat.

What I believe is we are not spending our money the right way as football clubs.

The nature of the salary cap means clubs have to compete harder for young players, in order to get the best young kids we can at our clubs and make it harder for other clubs to then come and poach them.

It means a lot of kids today, who don't play regular first-grade football, are earning six-figure contracts and living what I would call a privileged life as a "professional" player.

That's the first problem with the cap. Too many kids have it too easy, too early.

They fail to learn respect and responsibility. And with that we get what we had in the case of the young kid with Fitzgibbon, where a young kid who should still be playing first grade now has long disappeared from the game.

It all came too easy for him, and when the time came for him to put up he didn't have it in him.

The other problem is bigger.

Forced to spend so much money on our kids, it quickly eats into what we have available for players at the other end of their careers.

We still find the money to pay our marquee players, the likes of Darren Lockyer and Johnathan Thurston and Billy Slater, because we need those players to be successful.

Where we struggle is for the players who are about the same age but aren't match-winners, in the true sense.

It forces coaches to make a tough decision.

Do I take the old-timer for $130,000 a year, with perhaps just a season or maybe two in him, or do I put that money into a young kid and hope he kicks on to be something special?

Nearly every young player needs three years training and playing at NRL level to finally become a first-grader.

Most coaches will put the money into the kid, because that has the potential for the greater pay-off down the track.

But what this has done to our competition is strip it of the older, experienced players who bring benefits which we are only now beginning to realise are no longer there. They bring stability and mentoring for our young players.

We hear a lot about how exciting the game is today.

While the modern player is more brilliant than footballers of the past - a benefit of full-time coaching - I am dead-set sure that the modern footballer is nowhere the complete footballer like previous generations.

Some of the decision making, for instance, that young players come up with today staggers me.

As well as stability in week-to-week performance experience, older players also bring stability to the culture of your club.

Unfortunately, those players are heading to England earlier and earlier now, picking up nice contracts there because we choose to put our money elsewhere.

The NRL could easily fix this by bringing in a draft and payment ceilings for young players.

Those two things alone would do the job.

It would ease salary-cap pressures within clubs, it would actually prolong careers because clubs wouldn't feel pressured to blood their young players so early, and it would free up money to pay players in their late 20s who are leaving our game far too early.

Most of all, if would improve the football.

It would be to everyone's benefit.

story on the salary cap but it relates to the whole reserve grade thing
 
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