Queenslander!

[ANTiLAG]

Wally and plenty of others close to the team would suggest that Stanton's motivation was not that clear

A coaches motivation is to win. If it is to lose that is simply fraudulent.

As for pasting a single sentence and ignoring context let alone surrounding sentences, I repeat the paragraph;

"That is debatable. If Wally had won a premiership with the Broncos I would have to agree [that Wally was a far superior leader and player than Joey]. However, as far as Origin goes - I agree that that Wally has a more glittering record than Joey given the longevity of Wally's career.

But lets not let Wally's achievements fall into a myth. Heads up with Brett Kenny both in the five eighth position Wally was owned. They played 12 games against each other both playing five eighth - Brett emerged the victor 8 times. That said - Wally was a sporting hero of mine growing up. Truly admire him. Great player in origin. Both he and Kenny were extremely talented footballers."

Wally's record in the almanacks heads up with Kenny at five eigth in origin at a ratio of 2 to 1. Thus heads up it is reasonable to question the myth that Wally was "unqestionably superior" in origin but was owned by certain players. It is in the almanacks. The games are on dvd. Go watch them. How can it be said without doubt he was a better player with Kenny when he has the inferior record against him? Kenny owns the heads up record. Successful results matter.

I'll summise and be real clear - Kenny's career casts doubt over the King's "unquestionable superiority" in origin or even as the best five eigth of the 80's.

Now you may give Wally the nod over Kenny - and that could still be a reasonable opinion. But to say it is without doubt is just insulting to the achievments of Kenny in a blue jumper, in a blue and yellow jumper, and his green and gold jumper.

 

[cornerposter]

A coaches motivation is to win. If it is to lose that is simply fraudulent.

All this time I thought you were just fishing for an argument, but it turns out you're just wet behind the ears. I'm truly sorry for my misjudgement

Let me tell you what happened:
You see Cranky Franky knew that he could pick whoever the f**k he wanted in his Australian side and they would win. He knew there was little to no chance of the Poms beating his mighty squad. Armed with this confidence, Franky chose to opt for the scrum pairing of Sterling and Kenny because that suited his Cockroach agenda. While this pairing was a formidable option, it certainly wasn't the expected combination. Particularly because Lewis had been appointed Vice Captain and Mortimer was the incumbent...

...and that my wide eyed little friend is why Kenny was selected over Wally.

Heads up with Brett Kenny both in the five eighth position Wally was owned.

Nice try, you're still a f**ktard :lol:

 

[ANTiLAG]

Pete, totally agree with the elite group methodology.

I do feel you're being harsh on Lewis though AntiLag.

He wasn't dropped in 1990, rather he was ruled out through injury.

He did play in 1991 as well.

Yes he did play in 1991. He played the first test Pete. Had a shocker. Aussie lost. He was dropped. Peter Jackson was five eigth in the second test.

1990 ruled out via injury? He was injured in 1990 for the broncs but recovered to play in the finals. The ARL doc then ruled him unfit. Fit to play in the finals but not to tour? The Queensland Rugby league webite describes it as

"He got a clearance from his doctor to play in the Preliminary Final for the Broncos against Canberra. Lewis played the final 15 minutes of the game and came through ok. Lewis had a special medical on the Tuesday to prove his fitness. The ARL doctor Nathan Gibbs controversially ruled Lewis unfit for the tour despite playing and getting through a semi final a few days before hand. Many Queensland people have never forgiven Nathan Gibbs and the ARL for what they believed was a plot against Lewis. It clearly looked like another anti-Lewis plot."

Lewis did not think he was that injured in 1990. Anti-Lewis plot sounds pretty dropped to me. I do not think it was a conspiracy though. Bear in mind in 1990 he had already been stripped of the Broncs captaincy, and been shunted out of the five eigth position to lock and the bench. He was not in great form. His services were not retained by the Broncos for the subsequent year. Thus his form did not merit taking him recovering from injury.

Anyway - enjoyed the walk down memory lane.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Let me tell you what happened:
You see Cranky Franky knew that he could pick whoever the f**k he wanted in his Australian side and they would win. He knew there was little to no chance of the Poms beating his mighty squad. Armed with this confidence, Franky chose to opt for the scrum pairing of Sterling and Kenny because that suited his Cockroach agenda. While this pairing was a formidable option, it certainly wasn't the expected combination. Particularly because Lewis had been appointed Vice Captain and Mortimer was the incumbent...

...and that my wide eyed little friend is why Kenny was selected over Wally.

So the facts we have without resorting to mind reading is that Lewis was dropped for Kenny after Kenny had won two premierships and had finally handed NSW their first ever origin win whilst playing five eigth against Wally.

 

[cornerposter]

So the facts we have without resorting to mind reading is that Lewis was dropped for Kenny after Kenny had won two premierships and had finally handed NSW their first ever origin win whilst playing five eigth against Wally.

I forgot, you're more text book than street smarts. It's safer that way isn't it? f**ktard...

 

[ANTiLAG]

I forgot, you're more text book than street smarts. It's safer that way isn't it? f**ktard...

Is street smarts mind reading? Does it include crystal ball gazing and tarot cards?

Whenever soemone says they have street smarts and not book smarts I hear they have fake smarts and not real smarts.

 

[cornerposter]

Is street smarts mind reading? Does it include crystal ball gazing and tarot cards?

Anyway, in my opinion whenever soemone says they have street smarts and not book smarts I hear they have fake smarts and not real smarts.

Ask your lecturer...

...f**ktard

 

[ANTiLAG]

Been too many years since I've seen him.

Why are you scared to answer... not so sure yourself?

 

[Big Pete]

That's just hearsay though AntiLag, the same that says Stanton held an obvious bias against Queenslanders.

The official line was that he was ruled out through injury and I choose to believe that.

But that's not to really discredit your point. There were moments in Lewis' career that weren't flash, you and I both can agree on that. We can also agree that he was a fantastic player and captain and he's a large part of Origin folkore, which to be honest, is why we're all here in this thread to begin with.

 

[cornerposter]

Why are you scared to answer... not so sure yourself?

Evidence of total f**ktardism #756

 

[ANTiLAG]

That's just hearsay though AntiLag... The official line was that he was ruled out through injury and I choose to believe that.

Hearsay. Big word on this forum. I suspect you probably meant the term strictly philosophically but if you meant to use legal methodology and terms Pete I'll oblige. I fear we will lose the others now but I suspect you'll keep up.

The article definitely could be deemed hearsay - but there is potentially enough there to establish constructive knowledge ascribed to Wally himself that he was dropped. To establish this we'd have to know if Wally himself thought or should have thought with reason that he was fit enough to play. If he did he could thus be found to have constructively known with good reason to think he was fit, that he was dropped and not injured.

Did Wally think he was fit to play?

Clearly his Broncos docs thought he was fit to play a few days before so its reasonably probable he thought he was fit to tour. He did not sustain any aggravation to injury in that match. Have not read autobiographical stuff on this in the last 12-15 years and will not presume to mind read. But his club docs said okay and he got through the game fine, and Wally then went to the special medical a few days later. I think 12 reasonable people would think there is enough there to find Wally thought with good reason he was fit to play as a fact.

I concede its not an absolute fact - but men have been hung on much less in the past and there are enough facts there for constructive knowledge Pete. Its not perfect nor pure knowledge but its far more substantial and fact based than attempting mind reading about any anti agendas as done by corner poster.

 

[ANTiLAG]

double post

 

[caspersparks]

stop the beef fellas..

time for a bit of joey magic me thinks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF6wpyu4Vq4&feature=related

 

[Big Pete]

Which anti agendas are we referring to here Lag?

The 1982 prejudice against the Queensland players or the allegations that Lewis was ruled out so Clive Churchill could retain his record as the most capped captain of the Kangaroos?

The official line in 1982 was that Lewis was dropped because Stanton thought Kenny was the better player.

However popular belief suggests Lewis was dropped due to Stanton's bias as the NSW coach and an apparent hostility inside the Australian camp that had originated from the Origin series.

Then there is the popular belief involving the 1990 omission. That Lewis was fit and he was dropped for two reasons.

A) To preserve Clive Churchill's record as captain.

B) He simply wasn't good enough, so they ruled him out to save him the embarrassment.

In the end, the reasoning was he wasn't fit to play and I believe that's what we'll have to live with.

Just like how we have to believe that the NSW coach wasn't bias to his own state and chose to drop Lewis because he wasn't good enough.

In lay man's terms, I'm just saying you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

But let's look at the big picture, the point that Lewis wasn't perfect is fair and the notion that he isn't the undisputed best player of all time is also fair.

On that note, I don't feel it's a great idea to be too critical of the true greats of the game. We should honour them and celebrate them. Given that this thread is dedicated to Queensland, I feel it's only befitting that Lewis is celebrated as one of the game's best players.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Which anti agendas are we referring to here Lag?

Cornerposter's mind reading one.

The 1982 prejudice against the Queensland players or the allegations that Lewis was ruled out so Clive Churchill could retain his record as the most capped captain of the Kangaroos?

Never referred to any 1982 prejudice against Qld'ers - I merely spoke of Kenny's inclusion due to form and Lewis dropped.

Protecting Clive Churchill's record?! Do you know how paranoid that sounds? However, if you believe that - you believe he was still dropped. Concurs with my conclusion.

Lewis was not even first choice five eigth for his club in 1990. Stripped of captaincy. Moved to lock if not the bench. Not re-signed. And someone thinks non selection is more likely to do with protecting Clive Churchill's record? Well that is still a dropping and not an injury.

The official line in 1982 was that Lewis was dropped because Stanton thought Kenny was the better player.

Well Kenny was in scintilating form in 1982. NSW first origin win - Parramattas second premiership - Kenny was heavily involved in those successes.

However popular belief suggests Lewis was dropped due to Stanton's bias as the NSW coach and an apparent hostility inside the Australian camp that had originated from the Origin series.

The Popular belief fact? Many believe it so it must be true. Like religion? And you have negative connotations toward hearsay!

Then there is the popular belief involving the 1990 omission. That Lewis was fit and he was dropped for two reasons.

A) To preserve Clive Churchill's record as captain.

B) He simply wasn't good enough, so they ruled him out to save him the embarrassment.

A sounds paranoid and ridiculous given Lewis's poor form. As for B - has more merit than the previous idea - I mean Lewis was no longer considered the first choice five eigth for his club - let alone country!

In the end, the reasoning was he wasn't fit to play and I believe that's what we'll have to live with.

Whose we? I think its reasonable to conclude he was dropped - cf previous post. But not because of Churchill's record! Because of poor form.

Just like how we have to believe that the NSW coach wasn't bias to his own state and chose to drop Lewis because he wasn't good enough.

You do not have to believe anything. However, when you think about it its more reasonable to say Kenny was in brilliant form and deserved the 1982 jumper than it would be to say Lewis was not selected in 1990 because of some Clive Churchill conspiracy theory. However, if you accept the Churchill theory he was still dropped.

In lay man's terms, I'm just saying you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

If you're attempting to demonstrate an inconsistency in my reasoning then you have forgotten the fact specific nature of argument conclusions. Constructive knowledge is not pure philosophical deduction but inductive logic applied to known facts, while not absolutely accurate it is still light years from mind reading. In the end it can possibly in some cases ignore what someone subjectively thought or knew and deem knowledge with what they should have reasonably thought or what they should have been taken to know. The common law does it every day in deciding facts. There is no inconsistency in my reasoning - the facts of the 1982 and 1990 selections are different.

To be real simple -
1982 - Kenny in brilliant form - reasonable to conclude coach thought he was better man
1990 - Lewis in bad form - reasonable to conclude he was dropped. Cf previous post.

There could possibly have been an anti-qld bias in 1982 that saw Lewis lose his jumper- but it is a harder burden to discharge given Kenny's brilliant form in 1982, than my 1990 argument given Lewis's poor form!

But let's look at the big picture, the point that Lewis wasn't perfect is fair and the notion that he isn't the undisputed best player of all time is also fair.

On that note, I don't feel it's a great idea to be too critical of the true greats of the game. We should honour them and celebrate them. Given that this thread is dedicated to Queensland, I feel it's only befitting that Lewis is celebrated as one of the game's best players.

What rugby league history would Queensland have without NSW players?

Pete - you truly are a clever canny cookie. But remember the reasonableness of an argument is not just limited by logic but by the facts as well. A constructive knowledge argument of the coaches thinking with Lewis and Kenny in 1982 wouldn't get past the threshold - Kenny was playing too well. But there are enough facts there for a finding that Lewis was dropped in 1990 due to poor form.

 

[Big Pete]

Never referred to any 1982 prejudice against Qld'ers - I merely spoke of Kenny's inclusion due to form and Lewis dropped.

You used it to slight Lewis though and not to praise Kenny. Considering the coach was involved with NSW, there was talk of friction between the New South Wales and Queensland players and the coaches obviously being exposed more to Kenny one could make the argument that bias played more of a role than the form of Lewis. Wally still made that team by the by he was just used off the bench, and that isn't the first time a superior player has had to be used off the bench due to a coaches particular bias.

Lewis was also vice-captain, so he must've been rated fairly highly at that point in time.

So really, I wouldn't even use the 1982 example as a slight on Lewis to begin with.

Protecting Clive Churchill's record?! Do you know how paranoid that sounds? However, if you believe that - you believe he was still dropped. Concurs with my conclusion.

Those aren't my words, but there is a belief among those that was the case in regards to 1990.

Just like your opinion that he was dropped on form, although he was guaranteed a position based on incumbency if he could past the medical by Arthurson, which according to the NSW doctor, he didn't. If you don't believe the ARL haven't selected incumbents in the past, even when they haven't been on song then I will gladly educate you.

And I believe you could easily make a case Lewis would've made it on incumbency alone given the official word from Arthurson and the ARL.

As for Lewis' relationship with the Brisbane Broncos well there were a lot of factors that contributed to the fall out at Red Hill.

Firstly, it should be noted Lewis played a major role in forming the foundations of the club. He attracted other players, drew the support of the Queensland audience and attracted a number of sponsers.

Why weren't the Broncos so successful? Well in a matter of words, their all-star roster was too good and a number of players were involved in Origin and that would derail them during the middle part of the season.

The club being brand new weren't used to it and it took a number of years to get conditioned to it.

As for Lewis being dropped as captain, well I can tell you from the horses mouth it's because the players idolised him to the point where they didn't even refer to him as Wally, but rather the King.

There was an obvious divide between the players and Wally. Lewis' poor off-field application to training was seen as a bad influence on the players, so Bennett decided for the sake of the club and it's long term viability that Miles would take over.

In the lead up to the 1990 off-season Lewis had major surgery that ruled him out of training for the majority of the pre-season. Normally, this would have adverse effects on any player but for Wally and his relationship with the club this was huge. The Broncos had made huge leaps in their preparation for the upcoming season, enlisting the help of Raiders conditioning maestro Kevin Giles. Giles was way ahead of his time and he got a number of players performing at the peak of their powers, this further distanced Wally and the club.

Wally had a bad season that year through injury, I can't say much else but injury hampered him severely that season.

Come the end of 1990 the Lewis' contract had expired and he demanded the exact same money he had been on before which had been substantial. The club tried seeking an exemption from the NRL but (surprise surprise) they weren't willing to support the Broncos and so Ribot offered Lewis a reduced contract and Lewis didn't accept it.

So to suggest he was dropped from the club and didn't have the ability is a bit rich. I'm sure if he was given the same exemptions Johns was at Newcastle he would've been able to of seen his career out at the Broncos. Instead, the club was faced with a tough decision, a decision that not many other clubs have had to face and they decided to show loyalty to the youth of the club, and it was those players who helped the Broncos achieve 5 premierships (the sixth one was a little far from their reach).

What rugby league history would Queensland have without NSW players?

A lot of proud history in the BRL.

In all seriousness, this thread has nothing to do with NSW. Why would they rank a mention in a Queensland thread? It's like expecting a steak at a vegan restaurant.

Editted: It was getting late last night so I felt as if I didn't round out my points properly.

 

[kruzin]

Please dont start on food pete...i just woke up and im hungry....

Much like Wendel and his little trist with cocaine yet most are fine with him being seen as a positive role model for young blokes (me being amongst them)

Selective memory mate?

No as an unbiased QLD Supporter, i have no problem admitting that sailor was a drug cheat, but he suffered in his career by being banned and the media scrutiny, Andrew Johns didnt lose a thing, and still has not being punished at all for what he did, that is the only difference

 

[Dazzat]

Imagine my complete disappointment ... waking up this morning and realising I missed Laggy's continuing dribble on Wally Lewis' status in the game. I will now go and stab myself continually in the eye out of sheer disappointment.

 

[ANTiLAG]

It would appear you accept as a fact that Lewis was dropped from Australia team in 1991. For the rest of your points...

You used it to slight Lewis though and not to praise Kenny.

I used the example of Kenny to slight the Lewis myth.

Considering the coach was involved with NSW, there was talk of friction between the New South Wales and Queensland players and the coaches obviously being exposed more to Kenny one could make the argument that bias played more of a role than the form of Lewis.

Bias stirs up negative connotations. Strategic opinion, strategic inclination could be substituted here. But point is valid. Also a valid point to say Lewis was dropped because Kenny was in great form having done well in two grand finals and origin.

So really, I wouldn't even use the 1982 example as a slight on Lewis to begin with.

He lost his spot to Kenny, it does slight the Lewis myth no matter how well you spin otherwise.

Although he was guaranteed a position based on incumbency

Guaranteed? No Pete.

If you don't believe the ARL haven't selected incumbents in the past, even when they haven't been on song then I will gladly educate you.

Double negative. But I'll give you benefit of the doubt and respond to your presumed purpose. Of course they have selected out of form incumbents in the past but that does not guarantee a spot. I can also educate you on times when they have dropped the incumbent to proove that there are no guarantees. Incumbent players do get dropped often. Even great ones. Even captains. Here's a thought for you Pete - if Lewis was merely injured in 1990 why when he returned in 1991 was he not reinstated the captaincy? When captains return from injury they normally get the C back. But don't when they have been dropped.

And I believe you could easily make a case Lewis would've made it on incumbency alone given the official word from Arthurson and the ARL.

Hah - well that would be a stronger argument for his selection aspiration at the time than his entire 1990 Broncos form.

As for Lewis' relationship with the Brisbane Broncos well there were a lot of factors that contributed to the fall out at Red Hill.

Like his form, his dropping from five eigth, and his benching.

Why weren't the Broncos so successful? Well in a matter of words, their all-star roster was too good and a number of players were involved in Origin and that would derail them during the middle part of the season.

Yes - but not excuse when the Broncos have won six premierships while contributing heavily to origin. Same with the Melbourne Storm errr NULL premierships. Or the Raiders...

This really is more an excuse than a justification.

The club being brand new weren't used to it and it took a number of years to get conditioned to it.

The players were not all spring chickens. There were some kids and veterans other than Wally in the 88-90 crew. Unless you're saying it was the coaching staff's inexperience - but Benny always been pretty switched on and learnt things from Canberra days.

As for Lewis being dropped as captain, well I can tell you from the horses mouth it's because the players idolised him to the point where they didn't even refer to him as Wally, but rather the King.

If that was a problem it was up to Wally to sort it and manage the relationships with his team. Who was the horses mouth - the players or Wally?

There was an obvious divide between the players and Wally. Lewis' poor off-field application to training was seen as a bad influence on the players, so Bennett decided for the sake of the club and it's long term viability that Miles would take over.

Doesn't that really help RABK's point that Wally only contributed for Origin? (Not my point btw).

Come the end of 1990 the Lewis' contract had expired and he demanded the exact same money he had been on before which had been substantial. The club tried seeking an exemption from the NRL but (surprise surprise) they weren't willing to support the Broncos and so Ribot offered Lewis a reduced contract and Lewis didn't accept it.

Well it should have been reduced - from what you said he did not want to train. I'm thinking a variation of the famous FuiFui quote may have been used here by Bennett/Ribot/Management when Lewis was benched. You train twenty minutes - you play twenty minutes then you get paid one quarter.

So to suggest he was dropped from the club and didn't have the ability is a bit rich.

Define ability? Ability to manage relations with players? Ability to train? Ability to do the things Kevvy Walters could do? If Wally's performances had been in elite in 1990 as they had been previously - there is less likelihood he would have been canned. Simple. No matter how you spin it.

In all seriousness, this thread has nothing to do with NSW.

Billy Moore screamed Queenslander as he played for Queensland against what team in origin?

Why would they rank a mention in a Queensland thread?

Because its an origin thread. Cannot not have a Queensland origin team thread without a team to play against. Else its as exciting as reading the ESL Dream team. NSW are part of Origin history too - its not just ours.

It's like expecting a steak at a vegan restaurant.

Disanalogy. NSW and Qld origin history and players therein are joined at the hip. One only exists with the other.

 

[cornerposter]

:iwstupid:

Evidence of total f**ktardism #943