Question

[LeedsStorm]

Leeds v wigan cup tie is pretty reflective of the current state of UK rl. A cup comp that has the history and romance the Aussie game would do well to replicate. Great entertainment and unexpected result (bit of a two fingered salute to those with a negative assessment of sinfield and the team in general). But a really disappointing crowd. 12k is awful for such a high profile game

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

A few clubs are run badly, nothing the fans can do and out side that, the ESL has come along way from when it started. Back then I think it was 1 or 2 clubs that could win, over the next 5-10 years it became a big four comp, in the last 5 years there has been a bigger spreading out of talent and up to this point right now, there are a genuine 6 sides who can win the comp and a further four clubs that will give them a hard time on their day.

 

[BODISGOD]

Sorry BOD but pro sports teams are not the same as any other business. On the whole there is far too much emotion involved for the powers that be to make rational decisions as they would if it was a company that makes cars for example. The board of a sports clubs is likely to make some shocking business choices that they would never make if it was concerning their own companies. Results in sport have to be achieved in the short term, relatively speaking, whereas in business they can take years to come to fruition. If they were the same as ordinary businesses then why are so few pro sports teams making any money? I'd never invest in a sports team to make money, would you?

Yes there is benefactors for some clubs as I said but most are still businesses.

Passion exists in all forms of business. Studied Strategy? Businessmen make mistakes every day of the week through blinkered passion and bad strategy. Something like 50% of businesses fail within 5 years. You can say mismanagement yes, but sports clubs are in the main exactly like any other business. Why is it such a shock that soccer clubs fold in England. Leeds United gambled famously on Champions League football, they lost that gamble and fell badly. The actual rate of failures is lower than other businesses because of benefactors, but the idea that sports clubs are not businesses is a fallacy.

No I wouldn't touch a sports team as an investment (bar NFL clubs), neither would I touch the airline industry which has the lowest profitability of pretty much any industry. People still do though; through passion, through self belief ect

 

[newman]

I think people (Australians) underestimate the size of the game in the U.K.

In reality the area where the game is played and followed "properly" is geographically about the size of maybe Tasmania? Happy to be corrected on that. In terms of population Leeds is the only "major" city in the mix with Bradford, Hull, Warrington, Wigan etc being small cities. Wakefield is almost a suburb of Leeds and Salford is tiny. In other words in terms of coverage is miles behind soccer and will never, ever catch up and it is crazy to expect that it will.

If you are objective about it, the SuperLeague is a well run professional sport. Most matches are competitive, the t.v coverage is first class, most venues shit on the NRL, they develop some very, very good players and the number of supporters and players is steadily growing. As said previously, it rates very well on T.V and most clubs have a good tradition and heritage.

Sure, there are some problems and some things they tried have failed (Wales and London) but overall the game is in pretty good shape. When you accept that it will forever be in soccers long shadow, you see it for what it is.

 

[deluded pom?]

but the idea that sports clubs are not businesses is a fallacy.

No I wouldn't touch a sports team as an investment (bar NFL clubs), neither would I touch the airline industry which has the lowest profitability of pretty much any industry. People still do though; through passion, through self belief ect

I never said a sports club wasn't a business. Airlines do make profits then, albeit low, unlike the vast majority of pro sports clubs the world over.

 

[BODISGOD]

I never said a sports club wasn't a business. Airlines do make profits then, albeit low, unlike the vast majority of pro sports clubs the world over.

Then why the surprise when a sports club folds?

Bradford made a bad business decision with Harris. Their revenue fell (ie attendances went down). Happens to businesses all the time. That's my point, reality is sans benefactors there is always going to be teams that go under.

 

[Evil Homer]

In reality the area where the game is played and followed "properly" is geographically about the size of maybe Tasmania? Happy to be corrected on that. In terms of population Leeds is the only "major" city in the mix with Bradford, Hull, Warrington, Wigan etc being small cities. Wakefield is almost a suburb of Leeds and Salford is tiny. In other words in terms of coverage is miles behind soccer and will never, ever catch up and it is crazy to expect that it will.

Wakefield isn't a suburb of Leeds, it's an average size city. Salford isn't 'tiny', the population of Salford alone is around 230,000 but it's also pretty much part of Manchester, there isn't a boundary between Salford and the other parts of the city.

 

[deluded pom?]

Then why the surprise when a sports club folds?

You'll have to point out to me where I expressed surprise at Bradford's predicament.

 

[BODISGOD]

You'll have to point out to me where I expressed surprise at Bradford's predicament.

I was talking in general. People act like clubs going under is shocking, it's not.

 

[newman]

Wakefield isn't a suburb of Leeds, it's an average size city. Salford isn't 'tiny', the population of Salford alone is around 230,000 but it's also pretty much part of Manchester, there isn't a boundary between Salford and the other parts of the city.

In Australian terms Wakefield is like a suburb of Leeds. Similar to how Parra is a suburb of Sydney but a mini city in its own right. I was trying to put an Aussie viewpoint on it. I was wrong about Salford. Sorry.

 

[BODISGOD]

Not a Brit, but I spend a lot of time reading English sports press. I think many Australian League fans would be shocked by the coverage of SL and rugby league in general in the papers. Its abysmally poor for a sport that has 2nd best TV ratings.

Just going to point out btw that this is a bit far from the mark. Super League enjoys good solid tv ratings throughout it's run but second best is really not true in reality and gives a false impression.

Soccer dwarfs ALL 365.

Only things that get a look in really for main sport pages during periods they're on would be;
Formula 1 if British driver involved and doing well
Golf during the majors (if Brit or Irishman involved at the top), British Open
Wimbledon (other tennis grand slams if Murray is doing well)
Six Nations/Rugby World Cup
Olympics
Grand National/Cheltenham

Probably forgetting a couple but there you go really, those above get maybe to share the front page with soccer if they're on for their brief duration.

Unfortunately Rugby League doesn't have such an event. The International game is key here to find something to tap into the general discussion, if England are playing the Kangaroos for instance, there is obviously a bit more discussion above it. Problem is the International League scene is uneven in scheduling and riddled with self interest hindering it. It never catches fire like it should.

 

[BODISGOD]

http://www.redvee.net/readarticle.php?article_id=1205

If you've some time to kill...article encompassing a lot about RL in England. Robbed it from TotalRl. Lot of whinging but a lot of good points;

Summary;
-Too many pointless games these days in the regular seasons which are hard to be excited about
-critique of rule changes, 10m rule ect
-lot of traditional areas sacrificed for Northampton and others where they will be 3rd fiddle
-Summer season is good
-Aus model shouldn't be automatically copied for everything
-Distaste for lot of International efforts. Dislikes no GB league team, it's a disincentive for top level Scots, Irish and Welsh to actually play for their countries if they have ambition

Very traditionalist really and a lot of rose tinted glasses look at the sport. Will definitely rub a lot here up the wrong way and I don't agree with a lot of it (International expansion is very necessary for the game to survive and tailing back the season was a necessity)

 

[joedynamo]

http://www.redvee.net/readarticle.php?article_id=1205

If you've some time to kill...article encompassing a lot about RL in England. Robbed it from TotalRl. Lot of whinging but a lot of good points;

Hmmm, one lads opinion. Paul Ackford once opined that club union 'is, and always will be, a pastime for middle-aged blokes living in the south-west, the midlands and a small pocket of London. It’s just how it is' [/end thread]

As I said, its the lads opinion and good luck to him....he'll be back

Very traditionalist really and a lot of rose tinted glasses look at the sport. and I don't agree with a lot of it (International expansion is very necessary for the game to survive and tailing back the season was a necessity)

You are right about the rose tinted specs...For example, the Premiership wasnt a comp everyone wanted and he's got the play off/ League comparison wrong in my opinion...
Theres that word again...

I'm sure you'll get the type of replies you're after tho....nowlt like a bit of negativity ay :lol:

 

[industria ditat]

In reality the area where the game is played and followed "properly" is geographically about the size of maybe Tasmania? Happy to be corrected on that. In terms of population Leeds is the only "major" city in the mix with Bradford, Hull, Warrington, Wigan etc being small cities. Wakefield is almost a suburb of Leeds and Salford is tiny. In other words in terms of coverage is miles behind soccer and will never, ever catch up and it is crazy to expect that it will.

This is tricky to understand if you are not familiar with the geography of the sport in the UK.
First, if we are talking about the 'heartlands'- the areas where the game has pro/semi pro teams and is played regularly at grass roots level, this only covers a relatively small % of the country. It is also important to understand that only certain spots within this area are actual hotbeds of the game - you can go a few miles out of one RL mad town and be in another town that has no interest in the game, no history and very few people who play the game. This is a group of people that we have failed to involve in the game throughout our history - they are close by with easy access to the game but we failed to get them interested.
It is almost impossible to gauge just how many people really engage actively with the game. It is now played more in other parts of the country, but again these seem to be small isolated pockets, rather than right across the board.

 

[roughyedspud]

Wakefield isn't a suburb of Leeds, it's an average size city. Salford isn't 'tiny', the population of Salford alone is around 230,000 but it's also pretty much part of Manchester, there isn't a boundary between Salford and the other parts of the city.

theres more people live in greater manchester (wigan & salford),cheshire (warrington,widnes) & merseyside (st helens) than live in greater sydney.......about 4.9mil v 4.4mil


then if you compare west yorkshire & humberside with south east queensland....both have roughly 3million+ people..


what im getting at is the heartlands of the game both here & australia have roughly the same amount of people in them...


just sayin

 

[deluded pom?]

I was talking in general. People act like clubs going under is shocking, it's not.

I think the shock is more aimed at the fact Bradford were audited only last year when the new round of licences were awarded. People want to know why the RFL can ratify the business plan of such an obvious basketcase of a club. Either the RFL were negligent or they were hoodwinked.

 

[Dakink]

theres more people live in greater manchester (wigan & salford),cheshire (warrington,widnes) & merseyside (st helens) than live in greater sydney.......about 4.9mil v 4.4mil


then if you compare west yorkshire & humberside with south east queensland....both have roughly 3million+ people..


what im getting at is the heartlands of the game both here & australia have roughly the same amount of people in them...


just sayin

Interesting to know the actual populations centers. I was under the assumption, and wrongly, that, they were smaller areas!!

Depending on the cultural differences that should be more than enough to support the teams already present. I know soccer is no.1 by a country mile, but just under 8 million should be able to support 5 top level clubs, even given the competition from other codes.

Is there much union presence in these areas? I have jack shyte knowledge of the lie of the land over there. Are there any other sports that impact on the competitiveness in the market place. Union I know is there, anything else?

 

[WireMan]

Interesting to know the actual populations centers. I was under the assumption, and wrongly, that, they were smaller areas!!

Depending on the cultural differences that should be more than enough to support the teams already present. I know soccer is no.1 by a country mile, but just under 8 million should be able to support 5 top level clubs, even given the competition from other codes.

Is there much union presence in these areas? I have jack shyte knowledge of the lie of the land over there. Are there any other sports that impact on the competitiveness in the market place. Union I know is there, anything else?

Nah, forget Union. The only team in the NW is Sale and they play in a different area. Same for Newcastle in the NE.

Soccer is no. 1 by a coutry mile. I think its hard for Australians in Sydney/Queensland to grasp just how long a country mile is.
The closest i could think of would be if the whole east coast Aus fell into the sea and the NRL started again in Victoria, SA and Perth just using players from these areas.

United and Liverpool are the biggest clubs in any "Rugby town" in the NW of England. IMO.

Also note the people of the North traditional support sport in larger numbers than the south.

 

[joedynamo]

I think the shock is more aimed at the fact Bradford were audited only last year when the new round of licences were awarded. People want to know why the RFL can ratify the business plan of such an obvious basketcase of a club. Either the RFL were negligent or they were hoodwinked.

:lol: Excellent....not as quick as the fax fans I kno, they started using it weeks ago..0/10 for originality but 10/10 for effort.

The report did reference Bradfords finances...what the auditors and the RFL didnt posess was your crystal ball..

Sobering fact is, Widnes and the work of Steve o'Connor aside, Bradford were deemed to offer more to Super League than other applicants from the Championship...A fan of one of those refused clubs seemed to agree, posting(elsewhere) that a chastened Bulls will do something his club has failed to do...bring value and investment into the Championships.

So, avg attendence will be down which will lead to less outside investment and ultimately a drop in tv monies...players wages will decrease(not at the benefactor clubs obviously) and we'll end up with 2or3 full time pro clubs...oh, not forgetting the removal of one of West Yorkshires biggest cities from the pro ranks...
..but on the bright side DP, you might get automatic P&R back :sarcasm:

 

[WireMan]

:lol: Excellent....not as quick as the fax fans I kno, they started using it weeks ago..0/10 for originality but 10/10 for effort.

The report did reference Bradfords finances...what the auditors and the RFL didnt posess was your crystal ball..

Sobering fact is, Widnes and the work of Steve o'Connor aside, Bradford were deemed to offer more to Super League than the applicants from the Championship...A fan of one of those refused clubs seemed to agree, posting(elsewhere) that a chastened Bulls will do something his club has failed to do...bring value and investment into the Championships.

So, avg attendence will be down which will lead to less outside investment and ultimately a drop in tv monies...players wages will decrease(not at the benefactor clubs obviously) and we'll end up with 2or3 pro clubs...oh, not forgetting the removal of one of West Yorkshires biggest cities from the pro ranks...
..but on the bright side DP, you might get automatic P&R back :sarcasm:

I think the Bradford chairman should of used his cyrstal ball though. If you have a liability secured on an asset and you sell the asset then there is a fair to middling chance the guy you owe may either change interest rates or in this case just call the loan in.

Thats the short term concern. Long term the business needs to get hold of spending. It cannot carry on losing over a million a year. But thats an obvious thing to say and i have no idea how to do it.


Widnes were always the team coming up, so you wonder how much the other championship teams really put into it. If people had known in advance the Crusaders were going then more may of been done. Wakey were not a high target to aim for, but who knows.

Fax would make an easy replacement for the Bulls, but why replace Bradford with a smaller version of Bradford? I think we either lose a team and introduce a bye week, bring in an expansion team (most likely from France but maybe Kent, as the game is developing there. A bit early yet though i think.) or let them start as a newco next year.


I think the fairest way is to simple cancel next seasons license that the Bulls hold. Then any club who wants it, Toulouse, Fax, Leigh, Bradford Newco, anyone, can apply for it. Then the best club is chosen to play next year. If none are upto it, then we have a bye week.

Further more, i would give Bradford a points reducton this season, this is so if Bradford Newco (they will have to change that name!! ) play in the ESL next year then they start on zero points and its game on.

If Bradford avoid liquidation and come out of administration then, due to the new RFL rules, i still think they should have to re-apply.