Questions for any RL historians

[Patorick]

This thread's great.

Thumbs up to all.

 

[magpie4ever]

I wrote an article for the Forum 7's in 2008 about Duncan Thompson. It's also on my blog:

http://andrewrlp.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/downs-fox-2008.html

Another RL Player who went to war is Keith Holman, who I wrote an article about for the Wests Tigers website last month.

http://www.weststigers.com.au/news-display/tigers/71229

For those keen, go and buy/borrow the book, The Guns of Muschu http://www.gunsofmuschu.com/home.html - scroll halfway down the page) which is about an small elite group of Australian soldiers sent to Japan to locate anti aircraft guns. One of those elite men was Spencer Walklate, a Dragons player.

List of other notable players who served in war and played first grade rugby league:
Ferris Ashton (WWII - Navy on HMAS Kuttabul)
Brian Bevan (WWII - Navy)
Tedda Brooks (WWI - AIF)
William Buckley (WWII - AIF)
Neville Butler (WWII - RAAF)
George Carstairs (WWI & WWII - AIF)
Ken Charlton (WWII - RAAF)
Frank Cheadle (WWI - AIF)
Syd Christensen (WWII - AIF)
Eddie Collins (WWII - AIF & RAAF)
Jim Comans (WWII - RAAF)
Cec Cooper (WWII - AIF)
Les Cowie (WWII - AIF)
Arch Crippin (WWII - RAAF)
Steve Darmody (WWI - British Army)
Bill Davoran (WWII - RAAF)
Fred de Belin (WWII - AIF)
Pat Devery (WWII - AIF & Navy on HMAS Watson)
Joe Doyle (WWII - RAAF)
Tom Ezart (WWII - AIF)
Jim Flattery (WWII - Navy on HMAS Penguin)
Keith Froome (WWII - AIF)
Don Graham (WWII - AIF)
Rex Harrison (WWII - AIF)
Gordon Hart (WWII - RAAF)
Jack Holland (WWII - AIF)
Henry Holloway (RAAF in Japan in 1950)
Keith Holman (WWII - RAAF)
Ken Kearney (WWII - RAAF)
Clem Kennedy (WWII - AIF)
Jack Lennox (WWII - AIF)
Edgar Newham (WWII - AIF)
Sid McFarlane (WWI - AIF)
Len Pegg (WWII - RAAF)
Albert Rosenfeld (WWI - AIF)
Len Smith (WWII - AIF)
Duncan Thompson (WWI & WWII - AIF)
Spencer Walklate (WWII - AIF)

Administrator
Edward Larkin (WWI - AIF)

There is undoubtedly more though, especially for WWI

A couple of great articles - well done. How Joey Johns was named in front of true greats like Duncan Thompson and Yappy Holman is beyond me.

Question: Do you know of the history of rugby league in Victoria, when and why (obviously VFL became poular, but why) did it die out?

I noticed in the Thompson article that Ipswich played a Victorian State side.

 

[madunit]

I'm currently researching the History of Victorian Rugby League.

The first game played there was in 1914, when NSW played the touring England side.

In the 20's Victoria had its own league which sporadically died down and resurfaced, depending on the attention it got (touring teams, games played there etc). It was during the 20's that VFL administrators put forward a proposal to the NSWRL about creating a hybrid of the two games. Rugby League knocked them back.

It's biggest asset in NSW and QLD was that it was professional.

This was also its biggest hurdle in Victoria because VFL was also professional.

It wasn't until the very early 90's that Victoria got serious about Rugby League.

 

[eozsmiles]

Prompted by today's remembrance of all Australians and New Zealanders who have served and fallen in warfare:

- Why wasn't the NSWRL comp suspended during both World Wars when other sports comps e.g. Sheffield Shield were?

- Does anyone know of any RL players who served or can provide me with links to articles on RL players and the military?

Like a couple of other people mentioned, they kept on playing sport because it is part of the Australian culture. If we stopped playing, it would be giving something up.

I wrote a F7's article the other day in the Willow Cup that was basically about the year 1941 when they cancelled the Kangaroo tour. You'll find much more detail around the internet on the topic, but if you're interested then it's there to have a look.


Little bit OT - If you are interested in the relationship between footy and wartime, then here are a couple of stories that might be of interest.

The first one was written by an Aussie in 1960 for Sports Illustrated (I had to look twice at that). You will get a giggle out of it somewhere. Make sure you go back and start on page 1, it's linked to the 4th page (I derped it).

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1072017/4/index.htm


And one from Tom Keneally, a 100% first class fully qualified footy nut.

http://www.nma.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/221625/E_no_more_bloody_bundles.pdf

cheers

 

[magpie4ever]

I'm currently researching the History of Victorian Rugby League.

The first game played there was in 1914, when NSW played the touring England side.

In the 20's Victoria had its own league which sporadically died down and resurfaced, depending on the attention it got (touring teams, games played there etc). It was during the 20's that VFL administrators put forward a proposal to the NSWRL about creating a hybrid of the two games. Rugby League knocked them back.

It's biggest asset in NSW and QLD was that it was professional.

This was also its biggest hurdle in Victoria because VFL was also professional.

It wasn't until the very early 90's that Victoria got serious about Rugby League.

Thanks Madunit,

Look forward to the Vic history.

Have you ever put together articles on the history of the great old clubs like Glebe, Annandale and University?

 

[DIOGENES]

Great madunit

Have you looked at the Trove site with Victorian papers back to the 1850s? It would give you a lot of information.

 

[Kurt Angle]

Another of the reason why particularly in WWI, the NSWRL anyway, continued to run was a lot of RL players were employed in vital industries. Men who worked in industries like wharfies and coal miners, and coal was mined in the Drummoyne peninsula up to the 1930's, were banned from enlisting. This involved a lot of NSWL players.

In WWI, I believe 3rd grade wound up immediately due to lack of player numbers, I'm not sure of the status of reserve grade.

I also believe a NSWRL minute was to suspend the competition out of respect but authorities implored the NSWRL to maintain a comp as to maintain civil morale.

 

[Mr Spock!]

These are the stories we should be celebrating and remembering. Stan Carpenter captained the inaugural Newcastle team in 1908.

NEWCASTLE rugby league pioneer Stan Carpenter was a hero.

Not the type of so-called "hero" who scores a grand final-winning try, but the genuine kind.

While the South Newcastle hooker or second-rower was a gifted athlete and captained Newcastle in the inaugural season of the NSW Rugby League in 1908, his war-time deeds set him apart.

On this ANZAC day 98 years ago, Carpenter became one of the original Anzacs when he arrived on the beach at Gallipoli with the 2nd Battalion to face heavy fire from Turkish troops.

While rugby league people often rave about the courage of footballers to take the collisions and play injured, Carpenter truly put his life on the line. Four times at Gallipoli, he ran out onto the exposed beach to rescue wounded countrymen, all the while under enemy fire.

His deeds led to a recommendation for a Victoria Cross.

After the failed Gallipoli campaign, Carpenter was posted to the Western Front, where he twice crossed into "no-man's land" to rescue wounded soldiers.

The Newcastle coalminer received a second Victoria Cross recommendation and finished World War I with two distinguished service medals.

After the war he returned to Souths, where he continued to play rugby league before moving up the coast.

Carpenter died in 1962 aged 83.

Newcastle Rugby League board member Steve Doran said Carpenter's story had no parallel in rugby league.

"I think he's the most decorated rugby league player who's been in either of the wars," Doran said.

Politics had prevented Carpenter from receiving a Victoria Cross.

"Maybe because he was Australian and the English didn't like giving out VCs to the colonials," Doran said.

"He certainly got two medals just down from a VC, and there wouldn't be too many guys with that."

Only last month Carpenter and Central Newcastle halfback Ernie Patfield were recognised as Test players after the match they played in between Australia and a New Zealand Maori side in 1909 was finally given international status.

The Hunter Hall of Fame and Souths team of the century member also played in the great Combined Hunter and Northern side of 1911, which went on tour and beat Metropolis Sydney 31-24 and Queensland three times in Brisbane, 19-9, 26-14 and 10-8.

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1455902/league-pioneer-a-true-hero-of-war/

 

[madunit]

Thanks Madunit,

Look forward to the Vic history.

Have you ever put together articles on the history of the great old clubs like Glebe, Annandale and University?

Not yet....

 

[Mr Spock!]

Couple more real heroes from Easts and Saints

BLUEY WATKINS

Jack "Bluey" Watkins (Easts) was one of the very great players of early rugby league and unquestionably one of the finest lock forwards - although, sadly, his name rings few bells today.

Identify the great locks of the game's 106 seasons - Cann, Burge, Prigg, Norval, Cowie, Raper, Coote, Clyde - and "Bluey" is right up there with them. A demon tackler, his career with Easts spanned a remarkable 14 years (1913-26).

But he was missing from the club for 2 1/2 years - overseas "playing the other game". Jack enlisted in the AIF in October, 1916, and sailed to England the following year. As a member of the 2nd Division ammunition column he served in France, supplying shells to artillery units during such actions as the decisive battle of Amiens.

Finally home, after playing in a famous AIF team in England after the war, he promptly made the Australian team to tour New Zealand. Returning to the Tricolours he played on until 1926, captaining Easts that year - and having been a member of the premiership winning side of 1923.

LEN BRENNAN

The career of Leonard ("Len") Reginald Brennan did not scale the heights attained by Easts' legend and 1921 Kangaroos star Watkins.

But he was a fine contributor in the early years of the St George Club, a winger with the knack of grabbing tries.

His record showed he scored 20 of them in 40 games in the red and white (1932-34). From Ramsgate, Len enlisted in the RAAF in 1941 and trained as a pilot. On the night of June 7/8, 1943, he was second pilot on a Wellington bomber shot down over the Mediterranean during an attack on the island of Pantelleria, between Sicily and Tunis.

All the crew survived the crash - but by the time a destroyer found them the following afternoon, Flight Sergeant Brennan, 32, and all but one of his crewmates had died of the cold.

There should never be any hint of a parallel drawn between "war" and "football" in the telling of stories such as these. One is mankind's most dreadful running sore, the other just a game. The thread is no more than of rugby league played as an afternoon entertainment on Anzac Days.

The real significance lies in the historic nature of the afternoon - and in the chance for successive generations of young footballers to quietly reflect - to consider stories of the past and the tales of men such as "Bluey" Watkins and Len Brennan who went away to war.

 

[Mr Spock!]

Johnno Stuntz played for Easts, Souths ans Wests before enlisting. He also played for NSW in 1907 and 1911 as well as posthumous recognition of an international against the Maoris.

Was killed at Bullecourt on 3 May 1917.

Eye witness accounts below:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/1drl0428/2/266/4/1drl-0428-2-266-4-4.pdf

Poor bastard

 

[Perth Red]

The warl was formed in 1948 when many returning servicemen from the east coast got off the boats in Albany and Fremantle and decided to stay in Perth.

And talking of RL during the war, Lest We Forget

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...our-french-rugbys-shameful-secret-401557.html

 

[magpie4ever]

Johnno Stuntz played for Easts, Souths ans Wests before enlisting. He also played for NSW in 1907 and 1911 as well as posthumous recognition of an international against the Maoris.

Was killed at Bullecourt on 3 May 1917.

Eye witness accounts below:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/1drl0428/2/266/4/1drl-0428-2-266-4-4.pdf

Poor bastard

Some great but sad information.

The part that gets me is as a percentage of population Australia had the highest number of persons killed in WW1, we lost almost a whole generation of young men.

I sometimes imagine if this was not the case - Oz would be a such different country, much of the immigration that occurred wouldn't have been required.

Oh well, only can dream.

 

[russ13]

Another rugby league player who was a VC winner:
JOHN ALEXANDER FRENCH

Early life
French was born on 15 July 1914 in Crows Nest, north of Toowoomba in Queensland, Australia.[1] His father, Albert French, was a barber originally from Tenterfield and his mother, Lucy, settled in Crows Nest with her family after moving from Charleville.

He attended the Crows Nest State Primary School from 1920 to 1928. In May 1928, he sat for and successfully passed a demanding State scholarship examination. As a boy, Jack excelled at sports, and in rugby league he was known as "The Flying Winger".

He was renowned for his sense of fair play and protected those who were weaker. One childhood friend, Alf Blinco, remembers a time when he was accused of stealing and unjustly punished, John found the real culprits and brought them to justice thus exonerating his friend.
French enrolled as a State scholarship holder at the Toowoomba State High School and Technical College for his secondary schooling. He was popular and well regarded by his peers and the teachers. After completing his studies in 1929, he returned to Crow's Nest and commenced an apprenticeship with his father....


The citation from his VC reads as follows:

At Milne Bay New Guinea, on the afternoon of 4 September 1942, a company of Australian Infantry battalion attacked a Japanese position where it encountered terrific rifle and machine-gun fire. The advance of the section, of which Corporal French was in command, was held up by fire from three enemy machine-gun posts, whereupon Corporal French, ordering his section to take cover, advanced and silenced one of the posts with grenades. He returned to his section for more grenades and again advanced and silenced the second post. Armed with a Thompson sub-machine gun, he then attacked the third post, firing from the hip as he went forward.He was seen to be badly wounded by fire from this post, but he continued to advance. Enemy guns then ceased fire and his section pushed on to find that all the members of the three enemy gun crews had been killed, and that Corporal French had died in front of the third gun pit.
By his cool courage and disregard of his own personal safety, this non-commissioned officer saved members of his section from heavy casualties and was responsible for the successful conclusion of the attack.[8]
​

http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/a-brave-australian-digger-had-his-final-wish-grant/1718105/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_French

 

[reanimate]

Another rugby league player who was a VC winner:
JOHN ALEXANDER FRENCH

http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/a-brave-australian-digger-had-his-final-wish-grant/1718105/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_French

He looks a bit like Daly Cherry-Evans!

 

[magpie4ever]

Another rugby league player who was a VC winner:
JOHN ALEXANDER FRENCH

http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/a-brave-australian-digger-had-his-final-wish-grant/1718105/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_French

Bloody hell, what a great Aussie hero.

 

[magic]

Another two for the list.

1. Jack Devery (brother of Balmain great Pat who is on the list). Jack played one season with Souths after a lifetime playing Union for University. Was seconded to the Americans for surveillance work in the air force, based in Darwin and Brisbane. Still alive and in his 90s

2. Mick Mather. Played with Souths in 1939. Here is his synopsis: Joined RAAF in 1940 and piloted bombers over Europe and Middle East where he was awarded DFC for exploits over Tobruk. Remained in RAAF after war and given AF Cross in 1965 for his leadership and efficiency. Retired as AC Mather in 1973.

 

[Mr Spock!]

Steve Darmody played for Souths from 1911-12.

Souths utility forward, originally a winger and a fine hurdler in his younger days, took his place on the ‘Australasian’ Kangaroo tour that won the Ashes in 1911-12. Darmody kicked 9 goals in six minor matches on tour. He stayed on in England after the tour and linked with Jim Devereux and Herb Gilbert at Hull. He played in 89 matches for the club before enlisting in the British army at the outbreak of World War I. Darmody had his foot amputated after being injured in Flanders but lived a long and productive life until his death in Scotland in 1969.

 

[magpie4ever]

I'm currently researching the History of Victorian Rugby League.

The first game played there was in 1914, when NSW played the touring England side.

In the 20's Victoria had its own league which sporadically died down and resurfaced, depending on the attention it got (touring teams, games played there etc). It was during the 20's that VFL administrators put forward a proposal to the NSWRL about creating a hybrid of the two games. Rugby League knocked them back.

It's biggest asset in NSW and QLD was that it was professional.

This was also its biggest hurdle in Victoria because VFL was also professional.

It wasn't until the very early 90's that Victoria got serious about Rugby League.

Madunit,

Are there any details of what the proposed hyrid game would have looked like? or, was it just gaelic football.

Regards,