Raiders discussion on immigration.

[Kris_man]

I hear about multiculturalsim and acceptance in Sydney, but from what I've seen most of the races are segregated into their own little areas, eg Lebanese in Lakemba, Filipinos in Blacktown etc.

i definitely agree there, although i don't think its unusual.

 

[hrundi99]

I hear about multiculturalsim and acceptance in Sydney, but from what I've seen most of the races are segregated into their own little areas, eg Lebanese in Lakemba, Filipinos in Blacktown etc.

i definitely agree there, although i don't think its unusual.

Yes that happens but there is a more widespread range of different ethnic backgrounds across virtually all of Sydney.

In my immediate family and friends there is:

Colombian
French
Spanish
Chilean
Croatian

 

[Kris_man]

i don't believe in multicultaralism. we should have our own culture: the Australian culture. that doesn't mean everyone has to fit into it, it just means that we are all proud of our nation, and most of us share similar beliefs regarding it. way too many "foreigners", ie, people who weren't born here but moved here, i've talked to (or in some cases are friends with) can't stand Australia, and it makes me sick. on a lesser extreme, there's a lot of people who live in Australia but still regard some other country as "home", and i don't like that either. multiculturalism will not work, unless it evolves into an Australian culture, which i think it will, over time - "united we stand, divided we fall". if it was up to me, i would only let people live here who love Australia, but there's obvious economic reasons why that won't happen.

 

[hrundi99]

i don't believe in multicultaralism. we should have our own culture: the Australian culture. that doesn't mean everyone has to fit into it, it just means that we are all proud of our nation, and most of us share similar beliefs regarding it. way too many "foreigners", ie, people who weren't born here but moved here, i've talked to (or in some cases are friends with) can't stand Australia, and it makes me sick. on a lesser extreme, there's a lot of people who live in Australia but still regard some other country as "home", and i don't like that either. multiculturalism will not work, unless it evolves into an Australian culture, which i think it will, over time - "united we stand, divided we fall". if it was up to me, i would only let people live here who love Australia, but there's obvious economic reasons why that won't happen.

I think that's a bit naive.

A number of people who have moved here have done so due to unfortunate circumstances. Are you suggesting they should turn their backs on their family and friends and their heritage? Cultural history has a big influence on a lot of other ethnicities (as opposed to your typical Anglo-Saxon family) and they are more closely associated with it. It is not something someone can suddenly drop.

Having said that, the ideal type of multi-culturalism (or society in general) should be one where each person's differences are respected and appreciated within the greater society which reflects the traditional AND current beliefs/tenets of the country.

I actually believe that this happens for the most part. There are always unfortunate exceptions.

There's no way it should be obligatory for someone to love their country as there may be legitimate reasons not to in some people's minds. Your attitude is probaby associated with the feeling I somnetimes get that people are looking a gift horse in the mouth, and yes sometimes it is irrational.

A Newtown-supporting friend of mine has been living in Shanghai for the last 6 months because his wife took on a job opportunity over there. He can't wait to get back to a pub with Reschs on tap. Should he love China just because he's living there at the moment?

For you and I and the average "dinky-di" Aussie it may seem bizarre to think that of all the countries in the world with less than ideal living standards that Australia could be disliked, but it happens.

My sister-in-law who is from Colombia really likes Australia, but she'd like to live back in Colombia as well, because that is her history and that is where 90% of her friends and family are.

When I moved to Canada, I loved the place, but I still considered Australia home. I could have become a Canadian citizen but I would have had to give up my Aus passport, and there was no way I was doing that.

 

[Kris_man]

hrundi, what you're saying makes sense, and you;ve caused me to rethink what i said. but what happens when these foreigners become the majority? the nation as we know it will cease to exist, it'll just be a bunch of random people living in the same place. i'm not saying that these people will become the majority, but it does worry me that Australia might lose its cultural identity.
this is the only part of what you said that i couldn't really agree on:

Having said that, the ideal type of multi-culturalism (or society in general) should be one where each person's differences are respected and appreciated within the greater society which reflects the traditional AND current beliefs/tenets of the country.

I actually believe that this happens for the most part. There are always unfortunate exceptions.

There's no way it should be obligatory for someone to love their country as there may be legitimate reasons not to in some people's minds

it should be somewhat obligatory to love your country, to be proud of it, and to want to defend it if necessary. there might be legitimate reasons not to like how the country is run, but i don't see how that affects someone's national pride. to make an analogy, i love the Raiders. i don't always agree on how they're run, and sometimes i despise our boring tactics, but i still love the Raiders. to me, it should work in a similar way for our country. taken to the extreme, if no-one thought like that like that, then our nation would become weak and eventually become dominated in one way or another by a more powerful country.

in regards to other people's beliefs: they can believe whatever they like, except for beliefs which are anti-Australian. it's the same with every single ideology or school of thought or theory or anything (including multiculturalism): there has to be one core belief which remaisn unquestioned, which is taken for granted. this core belief in relation to Australia should be the belief that Australia is a great country, and the key characteristic of any Australian should be this: the desire to see Australia succeed, more so than any other nation. if this isn't the case, then i don't see how that person can be called Australian. i agree for sure that this does happen for the most part, but even a few to go against the grain is too many.

 

[hrundi99]

hrundi, what you're saying makes sense, and you;ve caused me to rethink what i said. but what happens when these foreigners become the majority? the nation as we know it will cease to exist, it'll just be a bunch of random people living in the same place. i'm not saying that these people will become the majority, but it does worry me that Australia might lose its cultural identity.

We have been receiving immigrants/refugees for the last 50 years (well for 216 years really) and I don't feel as though we've lost any of our identity. Situations occur which seem inappropriate but these are usually as a result of political correctness going too far.

For example, having a Christmas nativity scene at school banned because it supposedly offended non-christians. It is still obvious to me that the majority of the population has a problem with that, so ultimately the status quo remains.

A nation is defined by it's population, and if that population consists of many "non-traditional" Australians, then that's just the way it goes.

I agree with the sentiment that I'd prefer we didn't lose our national identity (whatever that is exactly), but rather than losing it I think it just changes, and it usually does so over a long period of time.

The Australia of today is very different from the Australia of 1954, as it will be in 2054. This is evolution. You have to remember that the input from "new" Australians CAN make this country even better than it already is (witness the Greeks and Italians working on the Kosciusko scheme for example).

this is the only part of what you said that i couldn't really agree on:

Having said that, the ideal type of multi-culturalism (or society in general) should be one where each person's differences are respected and appreciated within the greater society which reflects the traditional AND current beliefs/tenets of the country.

I actually believe that this happens for the most part. There are always unfortunate exceptions.

There's no way it should be obligatory for someone to love their country as there may be legitimate reasons not to in some people's minds

it should be somewhat obligatory to love your country, to be proud of it, and to want to defend it if necessary. there might be legitimate reasons not to like how the country is run, but i don't see how that affects someone's national pride.

But how does one define the love of one's country? How can it be measured?

To quote a bit of a left-wing cliche (and I'm not a lefty or a righty), I like the fact that Australians have the freedom to express themselves, to get pissed off with this country and to aspire to want it to be the best it possibly can be.

I know that we live in a great country but I also understand that other people have different perspectives. Some are irrational, but some are rational.

to make an analogy, i love the Raiders. i don't always agree on how they're run, and sometimes i despise our boring tactics, but i still love the Raiders. to me, it should work in a similar way for our country. taken to the extreme, if no-one thought like that like that, then our nation would become weak and eventually become dominated in one way or another by a more powerful country.

But I don't see any danger of that happening at all. We still get a big turn out on Anzac day, our main sports are heavily supported, Aussie tv shows are very popular (Blue Heelers, McLeods Daughters, etc), and we've just re-elected a conservative, "traditional" government.

 

[MEE]

Finally a non league topic on LU with intelligent conversation.

 

[thickos]

Agreed MEE - I think this is one of the more interesting topics on the boards at the moment.

Well done Souls on getting everyone talking

 

[SOULS 04]

yeh that was my secret intention alll along... i knew this would happen

 

[Raider_69]

yeh that was my secret intention alll along... i knew this would happen

:lol: :lol: :lol:
but of corse it was

 

[SOULS 04]

you may call me genius now

 

[Kris_man]

Agreed MEE - I think this is one of the more interesting topics on the boards at the moment.

Well done Souls on getting everyone talking

everyone? it's only me and Hrundi.

 

[Kris_man]

hrundi, i agree with just about all of that last post, it makes a lot of sense. only one thing i have to comment on:

But how does one define the love of one's country? How can it be measured?

it can't be officially or even accurately measured, so it won't and shouldn't be put in writing. all i mean is that if i come across someone who lives here, but hates it, or more commonly, who doesn't give a damn about its welfare, then i get deeply upset.

i think this issue is also closely tied to the refugee/immigrant drama that Australia has experienced over the last couple of years. and that's an issue which is likely get people talking. i'm gonna go off on a tangent and add my two bobs worth on the matter: i don't think that we should treat child immgrants/refugees any differently to adult ones. it's not our fault they're suffering, it's the fault of their parents for bringing them here illegally (if they brought them here legally, but are treated as if they brought them here illegally, that's a different mattter). my views are a bit extreme on this issue, it relates to my more general theory that parents should hold much more responsibility for the welfare of their children. for example, governments are often blamed for the existence of poverty-stricken children. what i ask is: if their parents were so poor, what were they thinking bringing a child into the world?! don't get me wrong, the government should hold a lil responsibility, but ultimately if a child suffers, especially regarding the basics like food and money, then it's primarily the parents fault or responsiblity.

 

[hrundi99]

I think we should do everything we can to help them BECAUSE they have no choice in the matter, but I don't see how "freeing" them by separating them from their parents is constructive.

I don't have a problem with mandatory detention for those who are entering the country illegally (why do people have such a problem with them being considered "illegal"? They enter the country without a Visa, so they have done something illegal), but it is the time taken to validate their refugee status that should be shorter.

Whether or not in can be shorter given that the government is relying on input from other countries, etc is unknown.

If they're genuine refugees, then welcome to Australia. If they're not, then don't let the door hit your arse on the way out...

 

[Kris_man]

If they're genuine refugees, then welcome to Australia. If they're not, then don't let the door hit your arse on the way out...

well said. but on the kids: history shows that you can't trust the children of your enemies. i know these guys aren't our enemies, but it's the same principle...sort of.

 

[hrundi99]

If they're genuine refugees, then welcome to Australia. If they're not, then don't let the door hit your arse on the way out...

well said. but on the kids: history shows that you can't trust the children of your enemies. i know these guys aren't our enemies, but it's the same principle...sort of.

I disagree. We have to ASSUME that these people mean us no harm and treat them accordingly.

But, there have to be controls in place to minimise any potential issues.

 

[Panjabi]

It's funny, i've visited this forum for the last 2 years without really ever saying much, i just like to catch up on all things Canberra, but here's an opportunity for me to post and give an opinion on matters non football related.. so here's my 2 cents worth.

history shows that you can't trust the children of your enemies. i know these guys aren't our enemies, but it's the same principle...sort of.

mate, i'd hardly call illegal refugees enemies, thier not exactly waging war against us now are they?

As for the whole illegal refugee argument i believe it is a myth, instigated by the News Ltd Media and the Liberal Party, who won the previous election on the back of scare-mongering.

Tell me, how many immigrants do you think applied for asylum last year in Australia (including those here illegally and those legally applying from overseas)? 4,290.

Now compare to these figures from other countries;
UK: 61051
Canada: 31856
USA: 54250
Europe: 367,996

Thats less than 1% of the world's asylum seeker claims.

Now it's fair to say, the illegal refugee problem is not that big a problem in Australia and their are more pressing issues facing the country, number of deaths on our roads, water shortage, etc..

 

[greeneyed]

Panjabi... interesting post... how about contributing more? 17 posts since April.... Raider 69 did 17000 in the same period .... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We need more opinions on everything though..... and sensible posters are in short supply... let's hear more of your opinions!

 

[Panjabi]

quality not quantity.. ;-)

 

[hrundi99]

As for the whole illegal refugee argument i believe it is a myth, instigated by the News Ltd Media and the Liberal Party, who won the previous election on the back of scare-mongering.

There is no such thing as an illegal refugee. The person who turns up without the appropriate paperwork is an illegal immigrant. Only when their refugee status is confirmed are they officially a refugee, and then they're not "illegal" anymore.

Tell me, how many immigrants do you think applied for asylum last year in Australia (including those here illegally and those legally applying from overseas)? 4,290.

Now compare to these figures from other countries;
UK: 61051
Canada: 31856
USA: 54250
Europe: 367,996

Thats less than 1% of the world's asylum seeker claims.

Now it's fair to say, the illegal refugee problem is not that big a problem in Australia and their are more pressing issues facing the country, number of deaths on our roads, water shortage, etc..

Based on the numbers it doesn't appear to be a big problem but border control is a very big issue. There has been scare-mongering among the press but the fundamental issue is still valid.

Why should Fred Nerk who paid some guy jump on a boat and come into this country when lots of others have applied for residency through the appropriate channels and are waiting patiently for their opportunity?

Residency in this country (or any other for that matter) is a privilege, not a right.

Comparing our numbers to Europe's is irrelevent as they are accessible by many more people AND they have more infrastructure to handle them.

I think your 4xxx number is a little under-stated as well, but I'll do some research.