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Round 2 V Rabbitohs

Panther Pete

Juniors
Messages
1,687
In years gone past these are definitely the games we've lost.

But I think losing to Souths twice last year will change the players attitude for this game. What we think of games has no bearing on what they players or coaches of either team think. Us being confident doesn't change anything.

I can see Bulldogs giving us a run for our money. They looked decent against Storm. But Souths have so much more going against them then us.

-They looked exhausted last week. Another hot one on Saturday wont help thrm
-They have to travel across the country to our home ground
-They have a new coach
-They have a rookie halfback
-Inglis is back from an ACL injury
-Their wingers suck
-Johnston is like Holmes. Terrific winger. Average fullback.

To me that adds up to a lot of points for us. If we can start at kick off instead of 30 minutes in I really think we can give 50 points a fair crack. Im going with 42-18.

We score 7 tries. Cleary nails 7 goals and breaks El Masris record. 36 goals in a row.
I agree with all you points but we were going to beat a reserve grade Dogs side by 50 a couple of weeks back and look what happened there.
 

GongPanther

Referee
Messages
28,342
Because they are replaced in the 30 by someone else and their salaries are counted instead, it frees up somewhat less than that. No more than $650k.


Cleary is still ours next season. But if he's going to cost that much after that, the club will seriously consider whether any player is worth it. Personally, I think that is too much. He's not the greatest player ever to play the game, so he shouldn't be paid the greatest ever salary.

If he has the form on board for the next two seasons,and he already playing like a champion,the market will dictate his worth. And when they will be able to bid for him after this November,it's going to be one hell of a shit-fight for his services.
 
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mxlegend99

Referee
Messages
23,039
I agree with all you points but we were going to beat a reserve grade Dogs side by 50 a couple of weeks back and look what happened there.
Yeah that was pathetic. But Gus wasnt happy with that. Or the first half against the Eels and he got them firedup.

Our roster is good enougg that it only requires effort to win these games. I just cant see us not putting in for atleast 40 minutes.
 

tripster

Juniors
Messages
1,957
Because they are replaced in the 30 by someone else and their salaries are counted instead, it frees up somewhat less than that. No more than $650k.

Agree with that, although I had left Mitch Rein out of my original post, who also left. I assume he would have been on more than bare minimum - perhaps $200,000.

Cleary is still ours next season. But if he's going to cost that much after that, the club will seriously consider whether any player is worth it. Personally, I think that is too much. He's not the greatest player ever to play the game, so he shouldn't be paid the greatest ever salary.

Yes, you are right. I should have said 2020 onwards.

It really is a difficult to assessment to make as to how much he is worth.

A few points in favour of it being worth paying him $1.3 million or so, even at his age:
  • The NRL salary cap has increased a lot - it is $9.4 million this season, and presumably will have increased further by 2020. Even if it only increases by 3.5% per year, we are talking a $10 million salary cap by 2020. So even paying $1.3 million as Manly are doing for Cherry Evans leaves you with a lot to spend on the balance of the team.
  • Halves are the highest paid position, on average, in the competition. Decent halves are all paid at least $1 million a season. Cherry Evans is paid $1.3 million, Ben Hunt $1.2 million (query if he is even decent), Cooper Cronk $1 million, Mitchell Pearce, $1 million. Thurston $1 million. Ash Taylor $1 million. Milford $1 million per season, after turning down an even bigger offer from Melbourne. Shaun Johnson $1 million.
  • Cleary has shown his potential over the course of 1.5 seasons. He has put in very good performances, on average, across those seasons. He rarely he has a howler, and has shown an incredible mix of talents: he is the league's best goal kicker - which is match winning in itself. He is an outstanding defensive half - what other half in the comp could have stopped Coen Hess scoring by holding him up the way he did. His spiraling bombs are amazing. He takes on the line without fear. The areas of the game he needs to work on is his attacking decision making - being able to read the general course of a match, identify weaknesses in the opposition, and exploit them all on the fly. However, that necessarily takes exposure to the situations in which those opportunities present themselves, and lots of practice. He is being mentored by a former great (in Greg Alexander), and he has 10 years of coaching already from Ivan Cleary - an excellent coach.
  • The fact he can already do what he can do at 20, already makes him better than some halves who are late in their careers. The fact he is young suggests that he can continue to develop. He has shown a commitment to training (he's no lout like Todd Carney).
  • He may get picked as NSW's Origin half this year (in fact, he is probably the favourite). If he is picked as NSW Origin half (appreciating that is one big IF), and IF NSW wins he series (a huge IF at this point), assuming he has some hand in that victory, he will have well and truly proved himself.
  • If we let him go, we are stuffed in the halves. There isn't a back-up in the wings.
  • We are paying Tamou $750,000 a season (has not proven to be a good buy, but may have served to help the rest of the junior forwards with their development, I don't know).
Having regard to all of those things, I can't see Cleary signing for less than $1 million a season. He is plainly worth it by reference to the market. I expect we will need to pay $1.2 - $1.3 million, or we will lose him to somewhere like the Storm or the Roosters (Cronk is only signed until 2019 - Roosters will immediately want a high quality half when Cronk retires). Storm would love one right now.

The only thing one could really say against that is that he hasn't had long enough in first grade to prove himself. However, I think the contrary, that we are seeing the emergence of one of the games next great players. There have been a few great players who revealed themselves to be great at a young age - Fitler played Origin at 18.

I could very well be wrong and completely over hyping what I am seeing, and I might have rose tinted glasses because I am a Penrith fan and I really want Cleary to stay with us and be great. Only time will tell.[/quote]
 

TheFrog

Coach
Messages
14,300
Good read. I think he'll command it because he's seen as the next great half of the game and already performing at a high level. It wouldn't surprise me to hear all the player movement is about keeping Cleary.
What you'd hope is that he feels he is a part of the club that developed him and wants to be a part of the big things that lie ahead without the need for a bidding war. This seems to be how it works at most clubs, especially the more successful ones.

This I think is where making the finals on a regular basis really helps.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
Agree with that, although I had left Mitch Rein out of my original post, who also left. I assume he would have been on more than bare minimum - perhaps $200,000.



Yes, you are right. I should have said 2020 onwards.

It really is a difficult to assessment to make as to how much he is worth.

A few points in favour of it being worth paying him $1.3 million or so, even at his age:
  • The NRL salary cap has increased a lot - it is $9.4 million this season, and presumably will have increased further by 2020. Even if it only increases by 3.5% per year, we are talking a $10 million salary cap by 2020. So even paying $1.3 million as Manly are doing for Cherry Evans leaves you with a lot to spend on the balance of the team.
  • Halves are the highest paid position, on average, in the competition. Decent halves are all paid at least $1 million a season. Cherry Evans is paid $1.3 million, Ben Hunt $1.2 million (query if he is even decent), Cooper Cronk $1 million, Mitchell Pearce, $1 million. Thurston $1 million. Ash Taylor $1 million. Milford $1 million per season, after turning down an even bigger offer from Melbourne. Shaun Johnson $1 million.
  • Cleary has shown his potential over the course of 1.5 seasons. He has put in very good performances, on average, across those seasons. He rarely he has a howler, and has shown an incredible mix of talents: he is the league's best goal kicker - which is match winning in itself. He is an outstanding defensive half - what other half in the comp could have stopped Coen Hess scoring by holding him up the way he did. His spiraling bombs are amazing. He takes on the line without fear. The areas of the game he needs to work on is his attacking decision making - being able to read the general course of a match, identify weaknesses in the opposition, and exploit them all on the fly. However, that necessarily takes exposure to the situations in which those opportunities present themselves, and lots of practice. He is being mentored by a former great (in Greg Alexander), and he has 10 years of coaching already from Ivan Cleary - an excellent coach.
  • The fact he can already do what he can do at 20, already makes him better than some halves who are late in their careers. The fact he is young suggests that he can continue to develop. He has shown a commitment to training (he's no lout like Todd Carney).
  • He may get picked as NSW's Origin half this year (in fact, he is probably the favourite). If he is picked as NSW Origin half (appreciating that is one big IF), and IF NSW wins he series (a huge IF at this point), assuming he has some hand in that victory, he will have well and truly proved himself.
  • If we let him go, we are stuffed in the halves. There isn't a back-up in the wings.
  • We are paying Tamou $750,000 a season (has not proven to be a good buy, but may have served to help the rest of the junior forwards with their development, I don't know).
Having regard to all of those things, I can't see Cleary signing for less than $1 million a season. He is plainly worth it by reference to the market. I expect we will need to pay $1.2 - $1.3 million, or we will lose him to somewhere like the Storm or the Roosters (Cronk is only signed until 2019 - Roosters will immediately want a high quality half when Cronk retires). Storm would love one right now.

The only thing one could really say against that is that he hasn't had long enough in first grade to prove himself. However, I think the contrary, that we are seeing the emergence of one of the games next great players. There have been a few great players who revealed themselves to be great at a young age - Fitler played Origin at 18.

I could very well be wrong and completely over hyping what I am seeing, and I might have rose tinted glasses because I am a Penrith fan and I really want Cleary to stay with us and be great. Only time will tell.
[/QUOTE]

Well written post and I agree.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
What you'd hope is that he feels he is a part of the club that developed him and wants to be a part of the big things that lie ahead without the need for a bidding war. This seems to be how it works at most clubs, especially the more successful ones.

This I think is where making the finals on a regular basis really helps.

Funnily enough I haven't heard him speak about this one way or the other like some players do. It is a good point.
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
59,031
I doubt Cleary would be on only 200k.
He debut in 2016 and was impressive.Do you think his manaher would of commited one of the hottest talents in the most sort after positions for a further 3yrs at 200k?
Maybe 200k for 2017 but NO WAY does he sign till the end of 2019 for that little money...
If Cleary was off contract start of this year he would have been thrown around close to 1 mill. I reckon he is probably on half that for this and next season or very close.
 

hindy111

Post Whore
Messages
59,031
I expect the club to throw his a 4yr deal worth 4 mill with perhaps an upgrade to about 800k for next season.
If he is on 200k next year he will walk under contract or not.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,863
I will be the dissenting voice and say that he hasn't yet proven he is a top level half. He hasn't shown the ball playing skills that would move him to the next level. His temperament, physique, defence, kicking and speed are all excellent, first rate.

JT is excellent because of game management and ball playing. He was always a ball player, game management improved with experience.

Cleary can develop in this area but it doesn't come naturally to him. He needs help learning how to read the defence. I hope they get as many great coaches to help him as possible. Brandy is a good start. Freddie and Andrew John's would be great as well.

If he can improve that aspect of his game, his ice cold Cleary genes will make him a brilliant player in the heat of big games. Game management, soft hands and ice cold temperament = legend.
 

OldPanther

Coach
Messages
13,404
I will be the dissenting voice and say that he hasn't yet proven he is a top level half. He hasn't shown the ball playing skills that would move him to the next level. His temperament, physique, defence, kicking and speed are all excellent, first rate.

JT is excellent because of game management and ball playing. He was always a ball player, game management improved with experience.

Cleary can develop in this area but it doesn't come naturally to him. He needs help learning how to read the defence. I hope they get as many great coaches to help him as possible. Brandy is a good start. Freddie and Andrew John's would be great as well.

If he can improve that aspect of his game, his ice cold Cleary genes will make him a brilliant player in the heat of big games. Game management, soft hands and ice cold temperament = legend.

On this I think being selected for NSW would be a huge boost to his skills as he'd be learning from Freddie and Joey in the Blues camp. We should hope for his selection on this point alone as he'll, hopefully, bring that extra development back to clubland.
 
Messages
21,867
Re Cleary’s contract.

He gets big money simply because there’s a dearth of 7’s

He’s not elite yet, but he’s also further along at his age than many other superstar halves were.

Just his confidence, poise, running game & goal kicking are worth it’s weight in gold. If he further developes his passing game that’ll be a bonus.

No mucking around here, we simply have to pay him the big dollars.


Luckily there’s also 3 big contracts coming off the books at the end of 2020, only a 1 year overlap on Cleary’s deal. Tamou, Merrin & Maloney. I could only see us wanting to retain Merrin. Probably by that point he’ll be a prop.
 

Aliceinwonderland

First Grade
Messages
7,602
Re Cleary’s contract.

He gets big money simply because there’s a dearth of 7’s

He’s not elite yet, but he’s also further along at his age than many other superstar halves were.

Just his confidence, poise, running game & goal kicking are worth it’s weight in gold. If he further developes his passing game that’ll be a bonus.

No mucking around here, we simply have to pay him the big dollars.


Luckily there’s also 3 big contracts coming off the books at the end of 2020, only a 1 year overlap on Cleary’s deal. Tamou, Merrin & Maloney. I could only see us wanting to retain Merrin. Probably by that point he’ll be a prop.


Exactly we have no choice. Simply we as a club have to give him an offer he simply can't refuse. (which is probably paying overs) Especially since daddy dearest will be pulling the heart strings in the opposite direction.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,474
I will be the dissenting voice and say that he hasn't yet proven he is a top level half. He hasn't shown the ball playing skills that would move him to the next level. His temperament, physique, defence, kicking and speed are all excellent, first rate.

JT is excellent because of game management and ball playing. He was always a ball player, game management improved with experience.

Cleary can develop in this area but it doesn't come naturally to him. He needs help learning how to read the defence. I hope they get as many great coaches to help him as possible. Brandy is a good start. Freddie and Andrew John's would be great as well.

If he can improve that aspect of his game, his ice cold Cleary genes will make him a brilliant player in the heat of big games. Game management, soft hands and ice cold temperament = legend.

Cooper Cronk is a top level half whose ball playing skills aren’t in JTs stratosphere. I agree Cleary has a long way to go but as far young half backs go he’s done as much as possible. Kicks well, runs the ball consistently, has pretty good vision, tackles as good as any halfback and never looks flustered. These are huge qualities for a 21yo halfback.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,474
Exactly we have no choice. Simply we as a club have to give him an offer he simply can't refuse. (which is probably paying overs) Especially since daddy dearest will be pulling the heart strings in the opposite direction.

More worried about the broncos tbh, they are going to chase him hard.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,474
What I’m really looking for this week is the first half performance. We need to be at least level pegging, or only down by a few.

Yes last week was good but it felt a bit like more of the same to me. Dogshit start followed by us getting back into it on some brilliant individual efforts and then coming home strong like we usually do. I’d love to see us take hold of a game from the start and play disciplined footy, build pressure and score some well constructed tries.
 
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