Round 20 vs Lewis & Friends

[billypilgrimnz]

I think "dropping" Kevin, so late and only after injury was about as safe a decision as a coach could have made, you'd be hard pressed to find more than one here who wanted him brought back, and this is a conservative bloc.

Exactly, there was nothing ruthless at all about Kingston being put in reserve grade; it only came about through injury, and once every man and his dog could see that Segeyaro was a significant upgrade and that we didn't need Kingston playing bloody lock, then even Cleary had to go with it.


That's as pretty f**king far from ruthless as you can get.

 

[betcats]

Pretty ruthless punting Lewis, Jennings and Grant though. Get in line or piss off, i'd say he is ruthless when he wants to be.

 

[chrisD]

Yes when his authority is questioned or when he doesn't like the size of the salary beside a player's name he seems pretty ruthless, on field form wise he's rather more slow and methodical.

 

[betcats]

Yes when his authority is questioned or when he doesn't like the size of the salary beside a player's name he seems pretty ruthless, on field form wise he's rather more slow and methodical.

Ruthless is ruthless mate. Anyway those are the best times to be ruthless, keeps overpaid spoilt dicks out of the club. You think Dessie or Bennett or Bellamy let any players question their authority? Shit Bennett let one of the best props ever walk because of money.

 

[chrisD]

Ah ok, and so not ruthless is not ruthless?

 

[betcats]

Ah ok, and so not ruthless is not ruthless?

Are you saying he is ruthless and not ruthless at the same time? Lol im not being serious with that.

 

[franklin2323]

This subject hasn't come up for a while, for obvious reasons.

Like the people that said we can't win without Simmons?

Kingston got injured Seg got his chance. Last year Moylan was told to look elsewhere only for injuries to get him in. Brown hurt his pec in came Peachey.

Unless you aren't wanted you don't get dropped. Injures have given plenty a chance we are yet to blood a dud as plenty here have said they can play.

Pretty much everyone on here agrees our pack is our biggest weakness yet aside from 2 developing players in Cartwright & Yeo have spent time in NSW Cup.

If he was ruthless Manu, McKendry would of spent time down there.

 

[chrisD]

Cleary and Gus ruthlessly removed Lewis, Jennings and now Grant, but for those not on big money or without personality clashes he seems based on recent examples prepared to let things roll until injury forces the changes and then run with that. Our draw has made it somewhat hard for him, it's hard to justify dropping blokes from a generally winning team even if there's a very good chance the team would improve for it.

 

[Pomoz]

Like the people that said we can't win without Simmons?

Kingston got injured Seg got his chance. Last year Moylan was told to look elsewhere only for injuries to get him in. Brown hurt his pec in came Peachey.

Unless you aren't wanted you don't get dropped. Injures have given plenty a chance we are yet to blood a dud as plenty here have said they can play.

Pretty much everyone on here agrees our pack is our biggest weakness yet aside from 2 developing players in Cartwright & Yeo have spent time in NSW Cup.

If he was ruthless Manu, McKendry would of spent time down there.

We shouldn't confuse being ruthless with exercising a choice we disagree with. The example you have given is a case in point. Some will disagree they should be dropped (not me in this case, but you get my point). Just because a coach keeps a player we think shouldn't be dropped, doesn't mean the coach is soft. He just has a different opinion. It may be he doesn't rate the players in reggies.

The idea that Cleary doesn't like players with a big salary is just a wild accusation. The club bid for Thurston and Carney and I think it is safe to assume that they would have had bigger salaries than Jennings or Lewis. Thurston is a bona fide superstar who who is far bigger than Cleary.

There seems to be this fantasy that Cleary doesn't like to win. He would rather pick dud players, sack good ones if they earn too much and keep his mates in the team. Meanwhile back on planet earth, rep players are dropped to reggies, good players who are paid above their market value are released, the club captain is in reserve grade and at one point we are top of the NRL and NSW cup.

Sack somebody who challenges your authority? Damn right. If you want to coach, hang up your boots and start coaching, otherwise shut the f*ck up and do as your told. By all means offer your opinion, but respect the team and the coaches decision. You want a say in everything? Find out where Matt Elliot is coaching next and join him.

 

[Pomoz]

Cleary and Gus ruthlessly removed Lewis, Jennings and now Grant, but for those not on big money or without personality clashes he seems based on recent examples prepared to let things roll until injury forces the changes and then run with that. Our draw has made it somewhat hard for him, it's hard to justify dropping blokes from a generally winning team even if there's a very good chance the team would improve for it.

Just a question Chris, is that not the best way to run a team? You are winning and performing well, should you drop somebody because a player is doing well in an inferior competition like NSW cup? I think it's different if the player is a proven star, but lets take the example of Waqa Blake. I think he will be a better centre than Idris, but I could be wrong. He may bomb and be out on his ear inside 12 months. If Idris is going OK, do you drop him for an unknown, but admittedly potentially brilliant, player like Blake?

I think you do if you are a few points clear and can afford a few losses, but not if its all on the line.

When you get down to it, being a coach is bloody hard. If Blake bombs you are an idiot for messing with a winning side. If Blake succeeds then the player gets all the credit for being a star. There is a reason all the coaches look old before their time.....

 

[betcats]

We shouldn't confuse being ruthless with exercising a choice we disagree with. The example you have given is a case in point. Some will disagree they should be dropped (not me in this case, but you get my point). Just because a coach keeps a player we think shouldn't be dropped, doesn't mean the coach is soft. He just has a different opinion. It may be he doesn't rate the players in reggies.

The idea that Cleary doesn't like players with a big salary is just a wild accusation. The club bid for Thurston and Carney and I think it is safe to assume that they would have had bigger salaries than Jennings or Lewis. Thurston is a bona fide superstar who who is far bigger than Cleary.

There seems to be this fantasy that Cleary doesn't like to win. He would rather pick dud players, sack good ones if they earn too much and keep his mates in the team. Meanwhile back on planet earth, rep players are dropped to reggies, good players who are paid above their market value are released, the club captain is in reserve grade and at one point we are top of the NRL and NSW cup.

Sack somebody who challenges your authority? Damn right. If you want to coach, hang up your boots and start coaching, otherwise shut the f*ck up and do as your told. By all means offer your opinion, but respect the team and the coaches decision. You want a say in everything? Find out where Matt Elliot is coaching next and join him.

Agree with most of that, the bold especially. When players wanna challenge the coach it never works out well, I cant imagine any top coach having a player try and undermine them and not pissing them off.

I also agree that there are a couple guys who probably should of been dropped for some games this year, but there hasnt really been anyone knocking down the door in those positions(Prop, Backrow) I mean Robinson is a good as well as Anderson and BMM but im not sure at this stage if they are an improvement, and like Chris said its hard to make changes to a team that is winning more often then not.

 

[Big Mick]

Alex Melville said on twitter to Gus the other day reminding him of what he said to the group the first day he took the job in 2011:

"Players Play, Coaches coach, administrators administrate"

Essentially if you are not with that...you are out.

And under Elliot the players were basically running the joint and that isn't any way for a team to operate.

As for Cleary doesn't like players with a big salary....that's garbage.

Soward is a big contract, Taylor is a good contract, So is Manu. No issues there.

Whare is on a decent contract now...no issues.

It's about attitude. If a player thinks they can run the joint he'll piss them off.

 

[franklin2323]

Pomoz. He coaches more to not lose moreso then win. He knows DWZ, Cartwright, Kev etc will make errors so picks others that a more solid instead.

He would also know that you need more like 35 players then 25 over the season. So he can be like that & still look at the young players. I wouldn't call that ruthless more like safe.

Big Mick the players you mentioned aren't on big money compared to others in a similar position at other teams.

Soward for example is on half of what we offered JT. Whare was signed for Tighe money. We got Idris & Whare for Jenning's money.

When I get a chance I will post the stats for 2012 Jennings was more effective then Tighe but on 4 x the salary had to go.

Only Latimore has decent stats yet our highest paid prop will see out his career here in NSW Cup. He was playing bad enough to be dropped but others should of had a stint down also.

 

[martielang]

Like the people that said we can't win without Simmons?

Where did people say this? Or was it more that people said Simmons is an asset to the team and some (incl. me) believe our team is better for having him there in front of others?

But hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

[billypilgrimnz]

Cleary is ruthless in some areas, but unfortunately I don't think he is very consistent in that. He does tend to play favorites (or at least, he is more willing to overlook the weak points of a certain type of player). And he is much too conservative in his selections as we all know, being very unwilling to make obvious changes until injury forces his hand. When he does try something unusual, it is often a head-scratcher (Yeo on the bloody wing? Kingston at lock for periods. Docker off the bench. etc).

He is obviously a smart guy, and I think he will learn from his mistakes (his attacking patterns are improving, though this is helped immeasurably by Segeyaro finally being a starter, a season and a third too late), but some people on here treat him as infallible, when he really is not.

 

[betcats]

Cleary is ruthless in some areas, but unfortunately I don't think he is very consistent in that. He does tend to play favorites (or at least, he is more willing to overlook the weak points of a certain type of player). And he is much too conservative in his selections as we all know, being very unwilling to make obvious changes until injury forces his hand. When he does try something unusual, it is often a head-scratcher (Yeo on the bloody wing? Kingston at lock for periods. Docker off the bench. etc).

He is obviously a smart guy, and I think he will learn from his mistakes (his attacking patterns are improving, though this is helped immeasurably by Segeyaro finally being a starter, a season and a third too late), but some people on here treat him as infallible, when he really is not.

Who treats him as infallible? Disagreeing with changes you want is not treating the coach as infallible. Neither is acknowledging that coach knows more about the players and footy in general.

 

[billypilgrimnz]

"...but I have faith in Gould and Cleary" is a mantra around here.

 

[Pomoz]

"...but I have faith in Gould and Cleary" is a mantra around here.

Well I certainly do. Years of mediocrity have made me think that these two might have something different and I support them. Gus, in particular, seems to operate with a clear strategic vision of where he is taking the team and isn't swayed by short term results.

I can't argue with Billy or Franklin and deny Cleary is conservative. No doubt about it, he is.

As for infallibility, anybody who has led people will know that making mistakes is as sure as death and taxes. All you can do is learn from them and hope not to repeat them. Leading/coaching is extremely difficult since it involves people with all their different personalities and preferences and then the environment you operate in changes constantly. If a leader says he is not making mistakes, then I advise you to run. They clearly are an egomaniac and will get you and your organisation in trouble in some way or another.

 

[betcats]

"...but I have faith in Gould and Cleary" is a mantra around here.

So you don't? Thats hardly treating treating anyone as infallible. I can't remember many comments along those lines unless it was in regards to junior development.

 

[Blues Riff]

"...but I have faith in Gould and Cleary" is a mantra around here.

Yep, that's what I'm chanting.
It's good to see the club engaging the Bathurst community with School visits' coaching clinics and a civic reception. I think this game will have an almost "home game" feel to it. It can only help grow the Panthers brand and future membership. Well done.